Why do I feel like so many people here support the USSR and the CCP?
Because most people here actually study the subject instead of relying on false narratives of the Western media.
Again, don’t get me wrong I don’t think the west is immune from any of this (and in fact I think there is a lack of criticism of the west), but anyone who claims the west is evil while simultaneously glorifying countries that implement concentration camps comes off as fascistic and ignorant.
You say that the West is not immune from any of the stuff you’ve mentioned, but your narrative relies on the falsehoods created by Western media. By doing this, you are uncritically glorifying the Western narrative and ignoring how these countries understand the issues you’ve mentioned. For instance, this is a list of countries which approve or disapprove of China’s Xinjiang policies:
Notice how the countries which disapprove is basically countries traditionally associated with Western hegemony. It’s the basically the Always the Same Map meme incarnated. The countries which approve of China’s Xinjiang policies includes countries with a Muslim majority. Do a research on why China adopted the re-education programs in the first place.
Xinjiang was filled with terrorist attacks by Islamic extremists, and they were hurting the Uyghur population in the process. China’s policies of re-education actually reduced the terrorist attacks and protected the Uyghur people. The Western narrative calls them “concentration camps”, but they are places with schools, art and dancing classes, where the Uyghur culture is actually promoted. They also learn about the country’s laws and ethical conduct. The people who are admitted to these centres are associated with extremism, and therefore they are restricted of movement, but once they go through the process of education, they are free and even receive incentive from the government to create their own shops and businesses.
This is a quote from the document created by the Organization of Islamic Cooperation:
Having considered the Report of the Secretary-General on the Situation of Muslim Communities and Minorities (Document No. OIC/CFM-46/2018/MM/SG.REP): (…)
Welcomes the outcomes of the visit conducted by the General Secretariat’s delegation upon invitation from the People’s Republic of China; commends the efforts of the People’s Republic of China in providing care to its Muslim citizens; and looks forward to further cooperation between the OIC and the People’s Republic of China.
This is only an example of how your narrative is filled with Western narratives, falsehoods and outright propaganda. You call yourself an anarchist, but you parrot very obediently your government’s narrative on China and the USSR. To go against the Western narrative is to research and inquiry objectively what these countries are doing, instead of relying on what you see on Western media (which includes Reddit, Twitter, Facebook, etc.).
People here on Lemmy and Lemmygrad reject these views because most people here actually STUDY and RESEARCH on those topics. What about you? What sources do you use for your claims? Let’s check:
- Wikipedia
From 2001 to 2010, 80% of edits on Wikipedia were made by 1% of editors/writers. It’s far from the “decentralized peer-produce” ideal that it markets itself as. Various analysis on the source of these edits have found that their IPs are linked to several US state organizations, such as the CIA, New York Police Department, along with government and corporate interests. There is even a company which offers Wikipedia edits, and they are hired by several corporate industries, including Facebook and billionaire groups which hire PR firms to whitewash certain articles. They have arbitrarily removed a community-elected member of Wikimedia and at the same time raised to the position of CEO and executive director (2019–2021) of Wikimedia Foundation a person called Katherine Maher, which had links to the US State Department and several corporate interests, such as HSBC bank, and has shady background in the Middle East. More info on her here. You can see why a country would ban the Wikimedia Foundation.
- ASIA MEDIA
According to its own website:
ASIA MEDIA (and later ASIA PACIFIC ARTS) arose in 1998 from the nonprofit Asia Pacific Media Network (APMN) at the University of California, Los Angeles. It was created by founder Tom Plate, then a fulltime Adjunct Professor in Communication Studies and in Policy Studies, and by his UCLA students.
Interesting how Asia media is located in Los Angeles, California, United States of America.
- The Independent
According to the Independent itself, it is associated with liberalism:
In fact, The Independent always shared some of Mr Blair’s political blend of social and economic liberalism, but, true to our approach, we could never unconditionally endorse him or his party.
There will be an obvious bias towards countries which do not follow liberal (bourgeois) democracy, and therefore, you should never expect it to have an objective portrayal of China.
In conclusion
but anyone who claims the west is evil while simultaneously glorifying countries that implement concentration camps comes off as fascistic and ignorant.
By glorifying the narratives of Western imperialist countries, your “anarchism” comes off as fascistic and ignorant. The fact that you repudiate China’s sovereignty over Taiwan is an example of this. The only reason Taiwan suddenly became an issue after 2010’s is because the US has interests over the island and manipulate the people through their propaganda machine to make them believe they are fighting for a just cause, over “democracy” and “human rights”. The United States of America has killed millions of people under the banner of “democracy” and “human rights”. Don’t be fooled by that.
Anarkiddie here, it’s good that you put effort into this post and it’s at least mostly good faith
Thanks, comrade
Admin reminder to everyone: insulting other users, even so much saying “fuck you”, “fuck [this group of people]” or anything like that while debating IS against the rules of Lemmy.ml. This goes for every political view, you DO NOT get free passes because you’re leftist, rightist, communist, etc. If you’re confident of your position you should be able to debate politely without cursing someone else out.
Check the modlog, we HAVE removed replies of this nature from both sides, and even if we don’t say it every time, we DO keep track of both removals per user and general behaviour even if it doesn’t get removed, and too many infractions WILL result in a ban.
That said, it is NOT against the rules to present countering facts or opinions, or to have political opinions in general. Don’t report comments for “being pro communist” or “being pro China” unless they have broken an actual rule, namely the ones about being civil. Things people disagree with getting down voted is also acceptable, it’s not considered an attack on you if your comment has a negative score, and it doesn’t even significantly affect the ranking because of the relatively low comment volumes currently on Lemmy. It’s just imaginary internet points, relax.
I am glad that this was said. Insults should not be welcome in any community, both in Lemmy and Lemmygrad, because if any discussion is made in good-faith, insults are never needed. And by good-faith I mean giving well thought answers, being able to defend your points and consider one’s arguments and reconsider your own. Above all, there should be freedom of criticism, not freedom of cursing. But if you cannot defend your point, you should expect to be attacked.
In respect to those with a liberal tendency, I don’t blame the political inconsistency on yourselves, hence why I think this is outside the scope of the administration any public statement on this, but I will personally state that liberals should reconsider their attitude on communism. Liberals should at least have an open-minded attitude towards communism because think about how many books have you read on that subject, on how communists understand the capitalist society, how they perceive the historical role of the people, and what they are trying to achieve. How much do you know about communism and its history, really?
As a communist myself, if I were to explain communism to a 3 year old, I would say communists want people to “be nicer to each other.” To a 16 year old, I would explain that communism is trying to diminish the differences between the rich and poor. Because by then, they will already have experienced seeing hopeless, hungry and homeless people on the streets of the city he lives in begging for money because he can only satisfy his need through the exchange of money. To a 32 year old, I would say communism is about ending exploitation, because by then, they will already have the experience of the labor market enough to not only recognize exploitation, but feel in on their own skin.
Being skeptical about everything should not only be welcome, but actually encouraged as well. But what most liberals (and people influenced by liberalism, knowingly or not) in fact do is deny communism altogether, not being skeptical about it. They do not engage with communist ideas, and proceed to attack communism, even if they are completely unaware what is it about. This is fanatical liberal dogmatism, not actual intellectual engagement.
But again, I don’t blame liberals for their own incoherence. Their thinking is a product of a historical period, like every generation, and like communists as well who are also a product of the same historical period. The base framework for communism is Marxism, and very briefly, Marxism is a critique of capitalism based on a scientific methodological approach to the analysis of society and its mode of production. It wouldn’t be much of a stretch to say everyone in the world lives in a capitalist economy. So of course Marxism, the philosophical, political and economical framework which investigates capitalism through a scientific method, would be the target of the most vicious attacks by those who benefit directly from capitalism, i.e., the bourgeoisie, through every possible means (propaganda). It’s also the reason why Marxism continues to be a relevant and influential theory worldwide, but by definition it is an unfinished and constantly evolving theory.
So in short, everyone is free to criticize Marxism and communism based on what they understand by it, and everyone should be open to be criticized, but insults should never be allowed, and we should always be humble on what we don’t know, instead of attacking others based on ignorance.
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We don’t have a common definition of what “being civil” is, it seems. I’m afraid of showing lemmy.ml to people now, every post about Ukraine or vaguely naming China or Taïwan turns into a nightmare.
Yeah being “civil” means being “liberal” with imperialist characteristics right?
No, it pretty much only means no insults or personal attacks, you can express communist views here and in fact that’s encouraged. Half the admins here are ML.
Yeah ikr. I just wanted to understand their definition of “being civil” since they don’t agree with yours
You can show them other instances that better match your or their political view. Lemmy.ml is no longer marketed as the flagship instance, and in fact is not intended for everyone.
Again, simply expressing opinions for or against Ukraine or Taiwan is not against the rules.
You can show them other instances that better match your or their political view.
At this point of agressiveness it’s not even a matter of political view.
But you’re right I’ll point people over to Beehaw.org for now.But you’re right I’ll point people over to Beehaw.org for now.
… beehaw…
every post about Ukraine or vaguely naming China or Taïwan turns into a nightmare.
on that we agree
I posted a response to user @goosefetisch@lemmy.ml here because they deleted their post after a deserved backlash from the Lemmy community. I didn’t want to discard the effort in compiling this information, so I thought I’d post it here.
Removed by mod
after a deserved backlash from the Lemmy community
You misspelled lemmygrad.
lemmy nationalism is a thing now, huh
Also, not even. I saw a large proportion of Lemmy.ml usernames in that thread.
Removed by mod
Thats because this is an account for lemmygrad
It’s always fun to see how most of Asia is red. And then Japan.
They’ve got that 2 little bombs to never disobey their masters again. (Tbh it’s pretty shit to be in the position of Japan today)
It would be difficult for them to resist when they risk being assassinated the moment they show signs of fighting back. Sigh.
A good rebuttal, and here are a few more points that are worth keeping in mind.
I think these people honestly think they are “fighting authoritarianism” by dunking on us. They done nothing but give us more attention.
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Lol that would be a bit too provocative me thinks.
Glory to China and North Korea!!!
I’m kinda surprised how much lemmygrad antagonizes themselves with their brothers on the left.
C’mon, people, if there are your potential supporters, they are here. You don’t gain followers with harassment. This toxicity is totally counter productive here even for your own cause.
I understand the temptation to upvote funny hot take, but trolls in your own family are destroying reputation of your movement, be wary of joining them in their black parade.
I’m kinda surprised how much lemmygrad antagonizes themselves with their brothers on the left.
If you read the post which this one responds to, you can see the user has a lot of “baggage” behind their post. At this point, no leftist can consider them a “brother”, and it’s meaningless to call itself a leftist while parroting the talking points of the US State Department. What does it even mean to be a leftist?
C’mon, people, if there are your potential supporters, they are here. You don’t gain followers with harassment. This toxicity is totally counter productive here even for your own cause.
What toxicity? My post actually considered what the user wrote in good faith, and I responded in good faith. I didn’t insult them, I carefully explained why their assumptions were wrong in the specific example of China. But I could go on into the original verborrhage of the user, which equated the USSR with Nazi Germany, denied NATO expansion, claimed Taiwan as an independent country (which the majority of countries of the world do not recognize), claimed it had “concentration camps” and so on.
In their post, they called people who are sympathetic to China and the USSR “fascistic and ignorant”, and you are complaining about toxicity when I respond to them not even insulting them once?
responded in pm, thanks
C’mon, people, if there are your potential supporters, they are here. You don’t gain followers with harassment. This toxicity is totally counter productive here even for your own cause.
Your opinions on the UK should be considered toxicity in itself.
that whole thing was you, wasn’t it?
Why (such a small) picture tho, why not posting link to the discussion so the viewer could grasp some context?
Other than that, you totally got me saying word “bs”. Wow, the audacity of me. This totally nullifies everything I can ever say.
Other than that, you totally got me saying word “bs”. Wow, the audacity of me. This totally nullifies everything I can ever say.
I have absolutely no care for curse words, I love throwing them around. You are the one who cares. I am confronting you for your pro-UK rant
So you admit you indent to break rule 2 in the future. Good job making mods look bad
No, I love throwing them around, doesn’t mean I should, doesn’t mean I will. Is this some sad attempt at a gotcha?
Also why is this in “Ask Lemmy”?
Because the user posted their question here. If you read their post, you can clearly see they didn’t have an intent in asking a question either, they just blurted out common talking points about the USSR and PRC we see from Western countries, so I made this one in response, in the same place.
Because the user posted their question here.
OK that makes sense
Uh, this isn’t a question. It’s an answer.
Technically correct, but since it’s directly answering an asklemmy thread (which was deleted), IMO it still fits here.
… and naming one user like you do is really not a good practice. But you don’t seem to understand anything about online harrasment. Especially when the pack of lemmygrad users come to insult and downvote.
Heck it’s scary.Let’s just cut straight through the BS, whatever State or narrative you support it won’t lead us to the cherished revolutionary dream or any sort of imagined utopia.
This isn’t about any utopia, it’s about objective truth. There are many criticisms to be made of the USSR and China, but if your criticism is based on falsehoods and propaganda, you are far from understanding anything.
But it’s easy to say so when you in turn are also indulged in a contrary narrative regardless if it’s good or ill willed. It’s just as easy for someone from the opposite side to criticize your narrative as being false and fraudulent. You can’t stop them, and neither can they stop you. Objective Truth… How do you go on to determine it? With biased, man-made methods? That’s a genuine question that I’d like you to elaborate on more.
It would be better to contrast the diverse narratives that exist and deduce some synthesis out of them (which still wouldn’t be close to your proclaimed objective truth).
Glows brighter than the sun
It would be better to contrast the diverse narratives that exist and deduce some synthesis out of them (which still wouldn’t be close to your proclaimed objective truth).
the problem is that you think western media is diverse. They are either right wing spewing nonsense posts, or Controlled by the CIA, or both. Do you know what operation mockingbird was?
Western media is as diverse as Chinese media, can’t deal with either of them tbh.
They are either right wing spewing nonsense posts, or Controlled by the CIA, or both.
Just to prove my previous point I will simulate a Western Right winger’s argument in your own style:
“They are either left wing spewing propaganda posts, or controlled by the CCP, or both.”
All I’m hearing is “muh centrism”
I criticize both ideologies not because I want to find some “middle ground”. In fact, I’m criticizing the whole scuffed political compass mentality. We have to collectively push beyond its limiting spectrum.
We have to collectively push beyond its limiting spectrum.
I know you think its progressive to be centrist, but its really not.
You forgot to say everything bad they do. It’s like NATO saying how good they are doing helping people, but not saying all the bad stuff they are doing. Isn’t the same kind of propaganda?
OK so I have lived in the former USSR for a while. The USSR is not really understood by people who haven’t lived in it. The truth is in between; yes it’s not like how people in the USA had been led to believe. Not entirely. We were told most of the bad things and hardly any of the good things. However, most of what was bad about the USSR is true, but people just have a hard time understanding that it was a real place and some things about it were nice, especially if you are into that sort of thing.
That being said, the idealization and white washing of the USSR online is just absurd. All of this revisionism and fantasy by kids online thinking the USSR was wonderful and amazing, is far from reality.
It’s the same story the PRC. Lemmy is just full of whitewashing, propaganda, irrational idealizations, and so on. This post is really a case in point. “Oh Uyghurs are just going to art school and dancing. They love it!” Like I don’t even know how you can write this and not realize that you don’t live in reality. I don’t think you’re lying in purpose, but I can tell you are gullible and naive.
Chinese and Soviet propagandists have an answer for everything. If you take their word for it they’ll have you believe it is all rainbows and unicorns. The problem is, it just isn’t how they say it is. Too much spin, too many lies, and lots of people desperately wishing it was all true.
Everyone who supports PRC and USSR that I’ve ever talked to acknowledges that they’re imperfect like any human society. The argument is that despite the faults, these are still better alternatives to capitalism.
I’ve also lived in USSR, I completely agree with you that there were plenty of negatives. However, USSR did manage to meet the needs of its population, it was far more equal than any western society, and it continued moving in a positive direction with every decade.
Things have gotten much worse for the vast majority of people after its collapse, and the standard of living still hasn’t recovered today. Of course, former republics that are in Eastern Europe got a huge amount of support from the west in order to create a bulwark against Russia. These places ended up doing ok for themselves. However, when you look at what happened in places like Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan, and many others then it’s a very different picture.
What people are desperately wishing is that people stop dismissing the achievements of USSR and recognize the potential of its ideals. Surely, we can learn from its mistakes without throwing the baby out with the bath water.
In general I agree with what you wrote. What I’m trying to say is this, that the good and bad elements are/were there, and it’s not easy to make generalizations about it without going into detail about exactly what is going on. We may all have our biases, and I’m not merely complaining about bias, but the prevalence of extreme cases of bias, where we turn it into something that’s just black and white either for or against.
I agree with that, it’s important to be able to honestly criticize things you believe in. Without criticism it’s not possible to recognize and address failures going forward.
The problem is that it’s very hard to have a nuanced discussion about these things when mainstream view is poisoned. As soon as you mention anything negative about China or USSR then that’s all people will focus on. I think a lot of people went through that and learned to simply focus on the positive, and you can end up in a place where you stop being able to recognize the negatives yourself.
It’s also important to remember that each system is a product of the conditions it arose in, history, culture, and so on. Each socialist project is unique in its own way. While there are many lessons to be learned from past and existing projects, it’s also important to keep in mind that new ones will also be unique.
Focusing on what worked in USSR and what didn’t is only valuable as far as it applies to current conditions. If people agree that the goals USSR tried to achieve are worthy, then the focus should be on how to build on what worked and do better going forward.
Right, your second paragraph is very important in my opinion. One may feel, that since the bad news is already out there and widely recognized, then what is the point of adding to it? Focusing on the positive makes sense because it’s possible that there just isn’t enough of it out there. I think unfortunately it’s hard for people to maintain a sufficiently broad perspective and say, OK, how do I put all this information together? Since the polarization occurred, if you have just negative sources of information and positive sources of information, and then they compete to see who can be more negative and who can be more positive, then kind of lose the plot.
Constructive criticism is good, in any case. I think when we interact on Lemmy we should be mindful that Lemmy is already not a mainstream platform or audience, so let’s suppose if 80% of the user base already has sympathies for communism or the People’s Republic of China and can possibly be swayed, but they encounter too much of a push from overly zealous users, it might turn them off. In other words, there can be a sort of backlash that could occur if you are preaching to the choir and simultaneously making them feel, that they are in the wrong. People easily get stubborn and dig in.
Right, finding a balance is tricky under such conditions and I think it’s something everybody needs to keep in mind and work on. Presenting ideas as being worthy of consideration and desirable to do without coming across as zealous and overselling them is definitely an art.
But then, do support to communism or those systems but not the actual governments which all of them are bad and evil. Still, there are other systems than communism that also worked fine until it got invaded and destroyed, like the anarchism in Ukraine for example, they got invaded multiple times if I’m not wrong, and they had a very good system for the people.
I support existing systems such as seen in USSR and China because despite their problems, they’re still a vast improvement over capitalist systems. The notion that all governments are bad and evil is just false equivalence. The fact that these other systems got destroyed is the problem with these systems. Any system that can’t effectively defend itself will be destroyed because there will always be other competing systems. Anarchist projects consistently fail to protect themselves effectively, and this is a fundamental problem that anarchists continue to avoid addressing.
Maybe the problem is the system you support, as you said, your system can protect so also can invade and attack others.
Too much power in the wrong person can do a lot of damage. The problem with anarchist projects are that others system like the one you defend attacks them.
Don’t you think? So the problem is the system attacking the other, not the anarchist, which is more pacifist and respectful.
Your system will always get into wars and conflicts until they don’t stop arming and getting armies, those monies invested on army is money wasted that could spend on tech for our people.
EDIT: You say Anarchist problem is that they can’t defend themselves, I tell you, the problem of communism or capitalist is that they just use those armies to kill, invade and impose their rules (rules often made by a single person or by big billionaires). And that’s why your system (capitalism or communism) will never success. Violence = More violence.
Maybe the problem is the system you support, as you said, your system can protect so also can invade and attack others.
I support a system that provides a real workable path away from capitalism. I grew up in USSR, and I’ve lived in the west. I’ve seen first hand which system works better. Until anarchists can actually put up a working alternative, I’m going to stick with what I know to work in practice.
Too much power in the wrong person can do a lot of damage. The problem with anarchist projects are that others system like the one you defend attacks them.
And as I’ve explained in the previous reply, this will not change. This isn’t something anarchists can control. If anarchists can’t hold their own then they get trampled by others. Anarchists need to reconcile the fact that not everybody wants the system they want, there will always be competing ideologies and if people who follow these ideologies are able to organize more effectively then they will be the ones in charge.
Don’t you think? So the problem is the system attacking the other, not the anarchist, which is more pacifist and respectful.
The reality of the world is that it’s anything but pacifist or respectful.
Your system will always get into wars and conflicts until they don’t stop arming and getting armies, those monies invested on army is money wasted that could spend on tech for our people.
China hasn’t been at war for the past 50 years last I checked, and has consistently been investing money in improving the lives of its people. Chinese communists lifted over a billion people out of poverty.
You say Anarchist problem is that they can’t defend themselves, I tell you, the problem of communism or capitalist is that they just use those armies to kill, invade and impose their rules (rules often made by a single person or by big billionaires). And that’s why your system (capitalism or communism) will never success. Violence = More violence.
USSR, Vietnam, Cuba, Laos, and China are all examples of incredible success. These systems have lifted countless people out of abject poverty, provided them with food, housing, healthcare, education, and work. These are tangible real world achievements that communists have under their belt. Until anarchists show how their ideas can be put into practice, I’m not going to pay any serious attention to them.
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That’s funny. Sounds like you’re saying people have Reddit brain, LOL. Go figure right?
Sounds like a pretty accurate take: it’s not as bad as it’s made to be and there’s also shitty parts. Hey sounds like the USA lmao.
That’s funny. Sounds like you’re saying people have Reddit brain, LOL. Go figure right?
Sounds like a pretty accurate take: it’s not as bad as it’s made to be and there’s also shitty parts. Hey sounds like the USA lmao.
That’s funny. Sounds like you’re saying people have Reddit brain, LOL. Go figure right?
Sounds like a pretty accurate take: it’s not as bad as it’s made to be and there’s also shitty parts. Hey sounds like the USA lmao.
That’s funny. Sounds like you’re saying people have Reddit brain, LOL. Go figure right?
Sounds like a pretty accurate take: it’s not as bad as it’s made to be and there’s also shitty parts. Hey sounds like the USA lmao.
That’s funny. Sounds like you’re saying people have Reddit brain, LOL. Go figure right?
Sounds like a pretty accurate take: it’s not as bad as it’s made to be and there’s also shitty parts. Hey sounds like the USA lmao.
That’s funny. Sounds like you’re saying people have Reddit brain, LOL. Go figure right?
Sounds like a pretty accurate take: it’s not as bad as it’s made to be and there’s also shitty parts. Hey sounds like the USA lmao.
