• RandomPancake@lemmy.world
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    10 months ago

    Mark my words:

    Trump will win, and it will be largely because of people who refuse to support Biden due to Palestine.

    I will be truly happy if time proves me wrong.

    • Son_of_dad@lemmy.world
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      10 months ago

      Eventhough Trump moved the embassy to Jerusalem and supports the complete destruction of gaza

    • Chainweasel@lemmy.world
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      10 months ago

      Yeah, I don’t understand hating Biden for something that Netanyahu is doing. And there’s only so much Biden could do other than try to play peacekeeper, which he’s been doing. Pretty much any other actions require congressional support. Biden isn’t a king, he can’t unilaterally declare that we’re ending all support for Israel.
      And yet an insane number of people act like he’s over there killing Palestinians with his bare hands.

      • NoIWontPickaName@kbin.social
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        10 months ago

        I know this sounds crazy, but he could not sell them weapons. He is directly supporting what is happening there by doing so.

        Call back carrier groups, stop selling weapons, and let them deal with their own fucking problems that they caused

          • GodlessCommie@lemmy.world
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            10 months ago

            It doesnt get much worse than death. Liberals will justify any and every possible action to defend the blue fascist by claiming the red one could be worse. What happened to ‘push him left after the election’

            • Candelestine@lemmy.world
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              10 months ago

              I think left to your satisfaction would be little further than most everyone else wants him, tbf. lol You can’t acknowledge any of the progress he’s made though? Even like, a tiny bit?

              Regarding Gaza, btw, they don’t need our glide bombs to commit a genocide. There’s a whole lot of ways to do an ethnic cleansing, so, you can’t necessarily stop it just by stopping the weapons. It’s not that simple.

              We’d have to sanction them or something, that’d probably do it.

              • GodlessCommie@lemmy.world
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                10 months ago

                acknowledge any of the progress he’s made though

                No. Prior to Gaza, though Im very critical of him, I did acknowledge a few things. Once he prioritized additional money/weapons and refused a ceasefire while bypassing Congress to allocate more weapons, despite what Israel was doing, and pledging unwavering support. Any progress prior to that is irrelevant. Shipping containers had a higher priority than the lives of Palestinians,

                they don’t need our glide bombs to commit a genocide

                While true, without access to US weapons, including white phosphorous which is restricted under international humanitarian law, it would be much harder to accomplish.

            • prole@sh.itjust.works
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              10 months ago

              Oh, you’re going to see just how much worse it can get.

              Are you fucking kidding me?? You think this is as bad as it gets? Read a goddamn history book.

              • GodlessCommie@lemmy.world
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                10 months ago

                Liberals are not that good at projecting outcomes, everything they claimed would happen under Trump if he won 2020 has come true under Biden. So I’ll take your projection with a grain of salt

          • NoIWontPickaName@kbin.social
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            10 months ago

            I mean how many genocides did he do?

            Fuck that stupid blowhard, but at least his genocides are only potential futures, Biden is locked in already at 1

            • acceptable_pumpkin@lemmy.world
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              10 months ago

              What a simply mornonic take. Trump literally tried to pull out of NATO, and he would kill support for Ukraine. There’s your genocide. Oh, and he wouldn’t handle the Palestine situation any differently, so make that 2.

      • Blackbeard@lemmy.world
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        10 months ago

        Not to mention Israel is absolutely the most important ally we have in the middle east. As lovely as it would be to openly shit on them and Saudi Arabia for being inhumane jerks, we just don’t have that option. The second we alienate Israel is the second WWIII becomes virtually inevitable. Biden’s choosing between shitty options and shittier options, and like it or not, we need foreign allies in strategic locations, especially since Pax Americana is rapidly collapsing.

        • Shyfer@ttrpg.network
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          10 months ago

          If we helped set up a two state solution then we’d have another ally over there. Hell, if we had a one state solution, we’d have one more ally and one less genocidal apartheid state to leash. And tbh, it’s probably better we’re not over there fucking things up anymore.

    • Blackbeard@lemmy.world
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      10 months ago

      And then Trump will make things infinitely worse, and we’ll have to fight that same stupid battle over who’s to blame for the next 4 years. Wash, rinse, repeat.

      • RandomPancake@lemmy.world
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        10 months ago

        Yes indeed, but the people pledging to vote against Biden because Israel don’t care. Or don’t believe. Or sincerely think Trump will be better.

        • Shyfer@ttrpg.network
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          10 months ago

          Or they don’t want to vote for a pro genocide President. Tbh, I get it. Your vote is your stamp of approval for a candidate for a lot of people. It’s the only way to say their approval that a lot of people have, their only voice.

          • admiralteal@kbin.social
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            10 months ago

            It really isn’t that, though.

            Your vote is a commodity. It’s influence to be spent, and you should spend it wisely.

            People who think their vote is some deep moral choice need to get over themselves. Try to affect the greatest positive outcome you can. A vote is not a formal, sworn endorsement of everything every checkbox on the ballot stands for. If it were, only the Trump cultists would ever be voting.

    • Verdant Banana@lemmy.world
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      10 months ago

      maybe the democrats should nut up and put a real non corpo candidate up to bat

      also people like biden and trump took my vote away so do not get to participate in this “democracy”

    • HorseRabbit@lemmy.sdf.org
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      10 months ago

      Weird way to assign blame. It’s not the Democratic party’s fault for having bad policies, it’s the public’s fault for not supporting the Democrats regardless of their policies. If Biden loses it’s because his party made bad decisions.

      • pjwestin@lemmy.world
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        10 months ago

        It’s just how liberal centrists sheild themselves from self-reflection. They know there are people to their left, and engaging with their ideas might make them realize their policies and candidates cause harm, so they decide to dismiss them out of hand as aiding the right. This creates a safe narrative where they’re always the good guy; people to their right are dangerous lunatics, people to their left are naive fools who are unintentionally helping the lunatics, and they’re the only ones behaving responsibly. This allows them to condemn people calling for the end of a genocide without engaging with the fact that their candidate is enabling a genocide.

    • alvvayson@lemmy.world
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      10 months ago

      You could also argue, if Biden loses it will be because of his uncritical support for Israeli war crimes.

      Nobody is forcing Biden to alienate his base.

      And, although I personally don’t believe Joe is supporting genocide, it’s not very realistic to expect people to vote for someone who (in their mind) is supporting genocide.

      • Semi-Hemi-Demigod@kbin.social
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        10 months ago

        Biden’s base is people who are almost as old as the Israel/Palestine conflict. They are not people who are young enough to care about this.

        • alvvayson@lemmy.world
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          10 months ago

          Lol. If that’s the level of political analysis Biden is gaming on, then he’s gonna fail just like Hilary.

          The name of the game is knowing your base and getting high voter turnout.

          The Republicans understand this. I hope the Democrats don’t forget it like they did in 2016.

          • ZahzenEclipse@kbin.social
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            10 months ago

            Young people don’t vote and young people aren’t what helped biden win last time. They can continue not to vote and it won’t hurt biden.

            • Shyfer@ttrpg.network
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              10 months ago

              Biden had historical turnout from young people. I think it was more based on Trump hate but still they helped. But you’re right, they’re a notoriously unreliable voting base.

      • GodlessCommie@lemmy.world
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        10 months ago

        Increasing funding to Israel, publicly say there is no red line Israel could cross where they wouldnt have US support, bypassing Congress 2 times to transfer weapons is unequivocally supporting genocide.

    • CptEnder@lemmy.world
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      10 months ago

      We should be criticizing our old, conservative president Biden. He needs to 180 his stance.

      Also not voting for him in Nov is vapid and invalidates any defense of the Palestinian people you have.

      It sucks, but it’s reality.

      • givesomefucks@lemmy.world
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        10 months ago

        It sucks, but it’s reality.

        Yep.

        We legitimately have zero options besides voting for Biden.

        And I sincerely hope enough voters realize that, because trump will be worse.

        The only thing we can do till 2028 is make a lot of noise about how this shit is unacceptable and Dems need to do better

        Unfortunately the DNC knows that while we say it’s unacceptable, we still have to vote Biden or risk trump.

        Which is why the DNC has spent 30 years drifting further and further right. They have captive voters and are willing to risk Republican rule so Dems can be as rightwing as possible.

        • vikingqueef@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          9 months ago

          We legitimately have zero options besides voting for Biden.

          If they stop funding israel and stop giving them arms, would it not get those votes back? are all of you really thinking biden would risk trump winning by refusing to halt arms and cash to israel and let the UN come to a ceasefire resolution? if its so dire, i think THEY have a responsibility to us and the palestinians. for one, all the money going to israel could go to be put to fixing our infrastructure, not destroying gaza’s. two, aren’t we going to need all these missiles and bombs for when we inevitably go to war with russia?

          The only thing we can do till 2028 is make a lot of noise about how this shit is unacceptable and Dems need to do better

          but just like every other election cycle, they will get their votes, continue on w/ biz as usual and then try to win our hearts again and/or fearmonger us again at the next election. with aipac and other big money donors doxxing and ousting progressives, i don’t foresee a functional left after this election, regardless. however, people are mobilizing over this issue and rightly so, its fucking genocide. there is no acceptable amount of genocide and there is no justifiable reason to continue funding and arming it.

        • KoboldCoterie@pawb.social
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          10 months ago

          They have captive voters and are willing to risk Republican rule so Dems can be as rightwing as possible.

          It’s simply the logical thing for them to do, in the present state of things.

          The far left / moderate left voters are captive for the reason you note. The party is closely aligned with center-left viewpoints, so they have their votes. The far / moderate right voters are all voting republican. It’s the swing voters / true centrists / center right voters who are up in the air, so those are the people the dems have to appease. So they drift further and further towards their viewpoints.

          Unfortunately we can’t fix this situation without a healthy show that they don’t have the far left / moderate left votes guaranteed, and need to start paying attention to what we want, too… but we can’t do that without accepting a republican president, which we certainly can’t do right now. So we’re stuck. And it’ll just keep happening that way, because as dems drift further left, the republicans are just falling off the right end of the scale, and they keep falling further every year.

          • givesomefucks@lemmy.world
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            10 months ago

            It’s simply the logical thing for them to do, in the present state of things

            Except the last time we had a true progressive campaign…

            A lot of those 1/3 of voter showed up. And we flipped a bunch of “red states” that the DNC had given up on those.

            It’s not that those people won’t vote, they just won’t vote for candidates like Biden and Hillary.

            But they turned up for Obama in 08.

            We found something that worked, and the DNC’s response was to tighten down primaries so there wouldn’t be another upset.

            Which has progressed to them straight up removing an entire states delegates.

            Unfortunately we can’t fix this situation without a healthy show that they don’t have the far left / moderate left votes guaranteed, and need to start paying attention to what we want, to

            I disagree.

            I think if a moderate loses because they don’t get the progressive votes, then nothing will change. They’ll say that progressives are unreliable and this means they need to go further right.

            Because we have decades of recent history that shows even if they still get the “lesser evil” votes, they’ll still say the same thing if they lose.

            The only option is primaries, which is why I’m so pissed the DNC just vetoed a state primary by yanking delegates away.

            If we don’t even have the primaries where the DNC openly say they can ignore results…

            We’re kind of out of options.

            And I legitimately don’t know what the path forward is. Or why everyone else isn’t shitting bricks right now.

            If the DNC doesn’t get substantial pushback, they’re not going to just give up on this veto they just decided they’ll have.

            Hell, Republicans will probably keep control of NH’s state goverment for the next four years, if they don’t agree to the DNCs demands about primary order, will NH Dems not get a say in 2028 either?

        • RandomPancake@lemmy.world
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          10 months ago

          This is honestly the best take on the issue I’ve seen so far.

          I am the first person to say we need to break the two-party stranglehold on politics. We need independent candidates in office yesterday. But this election is the abso-fucking-lutely worst time to make a run at that, because that third party vote WILL be a vote for Trump. And if you firmly believe that third party or independent politicians have a place, elect them to your local city council or school board or state legislature. That is where they will make a real, actionable difference.

          A vote against Biden, no matter who for, is a vote for Trump. No amount of TikTok “well ackshually” will change that reality.

          • HACKthePRISONS@kolektiva.social
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            10 months ago

            >that third party vote WILL be a vote for Trump.

            I object to the characterization of candidates as "third party, but as far as I know, no one calls the Republicans a third party.

          • vikingqueef@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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            9 months ago

            last election biden and harris were on the working families party line which is third party. i’m not sure this time around but do y’all even know how third party works?

          • HACKthePRISONS@kolektiva.social
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            10 months ago

            >A vote against Biden, no matter who for, is a vote for Trump.

            this is election misinformation. a vote for anyone except trump cannot be counted as a vote for trump.

            • RandomPancake@lemmy.world
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              10 months ago

              The election is a tug of war. Trump and his supporters are pulling on the right. Biden and his supporters are pulling on the left.

              When you vote for an independent candidate, you are removing force that could have been used to pull against Trump and redirecting that force towards a candidate who has zero chance of winning. A vote for an independent candidate is a vote for Trump.

              The only valid retort to this is “well I wasn’t going to vote anyway” and anyone who feels that way can shut the fuck up about everything.

              • centof@lemm.ee
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                10 months ago

                A vote for an independent candidate is a vote for Trump.

                No. It is a vote for an independent candidate.

                • RandomPancake@lemmy.world
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                  10 months ago

                  Which will remove yet another barrier to Trump becoming president.

                  I’m all for breaking the two-party stranglehold but do it in a local election where it will make a difference. This year is the absolute worst year to try a failed presidential run.

              • HACKthePRISONS@kolektiva.social
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                10 months ago

                >When you vote for an independent candidate, you are removing force that could have been used to pull against Trump

                Jill Stein and Cornel West are running against trump.

                • RandomPancake@lemmy.world
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                  10 months ago

                  That’s nice. They’ll lose, and the momentum put to that independent candidate is momentum that could have been used against Trump. Voting for either of them is a vote for “I am not interested in what happens in this country, and sincerely hope Trump wins. Because instead of voting against him, instead I choose to throw away my vote by making some kind of ‘statement’ that will never be heard by anyone.”

                • RandomPancake@lemmy.world
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                  10 months ago

                  It absolutely is. You’re removing a vote that could have been used to stop Trump and throwing it into a candidate who will not win. You are, quite literally saying, “I am completely fine with another Trump presidency”.

                • acceptable_pumpkin@lemmy.world
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                  10 months ago

                  There you go again with no concept of how politics works in this country. You are either a shill, or a completely naive person. A vote for a 3rd party candidate is as effective as not voting in the national results. Can you at least see that? When electoral votes are tallied, and NONE go to a 3rd party candidate, those votes are wasted.

                  I wish this country had a different voting system other than first past the goal posts, but it doesn’t so you need to be realistic in your vote.

                  • HACKthePRISONS@kolektiva.social
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                    10 months ago

                    if voting for an independent candidate counts as not voting (that’s a lie), and not voting is the same as voting for trump, does that mean that if i vote for trump, it is 2 votes? no.

                    you’re spreading misinformation.

        • ZK686@lemmy.world
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          10 months ago

          I’ll be voting for Trump. I was in favor of his tough stance on illegal immigration, and I still am. Bring out the pitchforks Lemmy!

            • ZK686@lemmy.world
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              10 months ago

              Isn’t this the Politics community? I mean, are all politics allowed…or, ONLY Left an Democrat politics? Smells very…Redditish to me…

              • Rapture@lemmy.world
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                10 months ago

                There isnt a single positive thing on your profile, even on other boards, why would i assume you are here in good faith?

                • ZK686@lemmy.world
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                  10 months ago

                  I’m here because I like to discuss politics. However, just like Reddit…it seems as if this community only leans one way. Sorry to inform you that politics in America is very broad…it’s not just about Democrats and Liberals.

    • givesomefucks@lemmy.world
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      10 months ago

      I think taking the delegates from NH because moderates keep losing to progressives is a bigger deal that will effect turnout.

      Biden’s and the DNC’s excuse that the state Dem party wasn’t able to convince the Republicans running NH into changing the law that NH has to schedule primaries first is an incredibly flimsy excuse.

      There was nothing the NH Dem party could do to comply with the DNC.

      And of all people, Biden should have been understanding that Dems can’t force Republicans to do something they don’t want to do.

      Just making the demand to begin with was incredibly fucked up.

      It was an impossible demand, and they act like it was an easy thing that the state party could somehow do with a snap of their fingers.

      The only way it could have happened, is if the Dem party broke state law.

      And a national party demanding a state party break their own laws to give the favored candidate an advantage is something I honestly thought would just be a Republican thing at least for a couple more elections cycles.

      • norbert@kbin.social
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        10 months ago

        Oh look a concern troll that’s sooooooo concerned about NH and state party rules. This person 100% actually cares and isn’t just trying to suppress the left vote.

        • givesomefucks@lemmy.world
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          10 months ago

          I’m concerned that the only other option in American politics besides trump just wiped out an entire states primary for something the state party can’t control…

          If you’re not upset about what that means, I don’t know what else to say that wasn’t in my first comment.

          • prole@sh.itjust.works
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            10 months ago

            I know you’re probably too young to know this, but you just described the American electoral process. This is how the incumbent advantage works. The overwhelming majority of the time, a party will not primary the incumbent candidate because it would be incredibly stupid.

            Stop talking about it as if it’s in any way notable.

            • givesomefucks@lemmy.world
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              10 months ago

              I’ll ignore the insults because I genuinely want to know and no one I ask ever responds again.

              When was the last time a national party removed all primary delegates from a state for something the state party had zero control over?

              For bonus points:

              Was that a state where the party favorite came in last and the most progressive candidate won the last two primaries?

    • xor@infosec.pub
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      10 months ago

      i’ve been watching this freight train loom ever closer and… thank you for seeing it too…
      this is the albatross around the neck of biden… and it’s killing my soul
      i know, in my heart, trump would’ve done the same thing, and many worse things…
      but ffs, why are the liberals completely blind to a blatant genocide?

      • RGB3x3@lemmy.world
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        10 months ago

        That’s rich. The onus is not on the people to support the Party over policy, it’s the responsibility is on the Party to appeal to the people.

        We shouldn’t be blaming voters for the failings of the party and its politicians.

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        10 months ago

        The article you’re commenting under is about people who care about Palestine.

        What a stupid, useless thing to say.

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            10 months ago

            You’re probably right sadly… People will blame that if Biden doesn’t get elected, but I don’t think it’ll sway things at all. Only the terminally online like us and redditors care about Palestinians.