Mark my words:
Trump will win, and it will be largely because of people who refuse to support Biden due to Palestine.
I will be truly happy if time proves me wrong.
Eventhough Trump moved the embassy to Jerusalem and supports the complete destruction of gaza
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Will one of the most beloved presidents be the one who rigs it too?
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Bringing back old characters is kinda cheap, but I’ll take it if only because it opens up the way for the zombie Lincoln that has been teased for so long.
Yeah, I don’t understand hating Biden for something that Netanyahu is doing. And there’s only so much Biden could do other than try to play peacekeeper, which he’s been doing. Pretty much any other actions require congressional support. Biden isn’t a king, he can’t unilaterally declare that we’re ending all support for Israel.
And yet an insane number of people act like he’s over there killing Palestinians with his bare hands.I know this sounds crazy, but he could not sell them weapons. He is directly supporting what is happening there by doing so.
Call back carrier groups, stop selling weapons, and let them deal with their own fucking problems that they caused
By all means, elect Trump and see if he does any better with human rights.
I mean how many genocides did he do?
Fuck that stupid blowhard, but at least his genocides are only potential futures, Biden is locked in already at 1
What a simply mornonic take. Trump literally tried to pull out of NATO, and he would kill support for Ukraine. There’s your genocide. Oh, and he wouldn’t handle the Palestine situation any differently, so make that 2.
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It doesnt get much worse than death. Liberals will justify any and every possible action to defend the blue fascist by claiming the red one could be worse. What happened to ‘push him left after the election’
I think left to your satisfaction would be little further than most everyone else wants him, tbf. lol You can’t acknowledge any of the progress he’s made though? Even like, a tiny bit?
Regarding Gaza, btw, they don’t need our glide bombs to commit a genocide. There’s a whole lot of ways to do an ethnic cleansing, so, you can’t necessarily stop it just by stopping the weapons. It’s not that simple.
We’d have to sanction them or something, that’d probably do it.
acknowledge any of the progress he’s made though
No. Prior to Gaza, though Im very critical of him, I did acknowledge a few things. Once he prioritized additional money/weapons and refused a ceasefire while bypassing Congress to allocate more weapons, despite what Israel was doing, and pledging unwavering support. Any progress prior to that is irrelevant. Shipping containers had a higher priority than the lives of Palestinians,
they don’t need our glide bombs to commit a genocide
While true, without access to US weapons, including white phosphorous which is restricted under international humanitarian law, it would be much harder to accomplish.
Oh, you’re going to see just how much worse it can get.
Are you fucking kidding me?? You think this is as bad as it gets? Read a goddamn history book.
Liberals are not that good at projecting outcomes, everything they claimed would happen under Trump if he won 2020 has come true under Biden. So I’ll take your projection with a grain of salt
I’ll definitely vote for Biden, but I just can’t donate for now until he stops fucking funding the conflict.
Not to mention Israel is absolutely the most important ally we have in the middle east. As lovely as it would be to openly shit on them and Saudi Arabia for being inhumane jerks, we just don’t have that option. The second we alienate Israel is the second WWIII becomes virtually inevitable. Biden’s choosing between shitty options and shittier options, and like it or not, we need foreign allies in strategic locations, especially since Pax Americana is rapidly collapsing.
If we helped set up a two state solution then we’d have another ally over there. Hell, if we had a one state solution, we’d have one more ally and one less genocidal apartheid state to leash. And tbh, it’s probably better we’re not over there fucking things up anymore.
Even though that will be bad for my country, I would still laugh about it.
Weird way to assign blame. It’s not the Democratic party’s fault for having bad policies, it’s the public’s fault for not supporting the Democrats regardless of their policies. If Biden loses it’s because his party made bad decisions.
It’s just how liberal centrists sheild themselves from self-reflection. They know there are people to their left, and engaging with their ideas might make them realize their policies and candidates cause harm, so they decide to dismiss them out of hand as aiding the right. This creates a safe narrative where they’re always the good guy; people to their right are dangerous lunatics, people to their left are naive fools who are unintentionally helping the lunatics, and they’re the only ones behaving responsibly. This allows them to condemn people calling for the end of a genocide without engaging with the fact that their candidate is enabling a genocide.
maybe the democrats should nut up and put a real non corpo candidate up to bat
also people like biden and trump took my vote away so do not get to participate in this “democracy”
Do they even have one?
And then Trump will make things infinitely worse, and we’ll have to fight that same stupid battle over who’s to blame for the next 4 years. Wash, rinse, repeat.
Yes indeed, but the people pledging to vote against Biden because Israel don’t care. Or don’t believe. Or sincerely think Trump will be better.
Or they don’t want to vote for a pro genocide President. Tbh, I get it. Your vote is your stamp of approval for a candidate for a lot of people. It’s the only way to say their approval that a lot of people have, their only voice.
It really isn’t that, though.
Your vote is a commodity. It’s influence to be spent, and you should spend it wisely.
People who think their vote is some deep moral choice need to get over themselves. Try to affect the greatest positive outcome you can. A vote is not a formal, sworn endorsement of everything every checkbox on the ballot stands for. If it were, only the Trump cultists would ever be voting.
You could also argue, if Biden loses it will be because of his uncritical support for Israeli war crimes.
Nobody is forcing Biden to alienate his base.
And, although I personally don’t believe Joe is supporting genocide, it’s not very realistic to expect people to vote for someone who (in their mind) is supporting genocide.
Biden’s base is people who are almost as old as the Israel/Palestine conflict. They are not people who are young enough to care about this.
Lol. If that’s the level of political analysis Biden is gaming on, then he’s gonna fail just like Hilary.
The name of the game is knowing your base and getting high voter turnout.
The Republicans understand this. I hope the Democrats don’t forget it like they did in 2016.
Young people don’t vote and young people aren’t what helped biden win last time. They can continue not to vote and it won’t hurt biden.
Biden had historical turnout from young people. I think it was more based on Trump hate but still they helped. But you’re right, they’re a notoriously unreliable voting base.
Is that true? I thought they didn’t end up showing up even though everyone thought they were. Maybe I a disillusioned by them not showing up for Bernie vs Biden in the last primary.
I mean, it’s a low bar but it does seem to be true. Wish they would be more reliable, though -_- Especially during primaries
Increasing funding to Israel, publicly say there is no red line Israel could cross where they wouldnt have US support, bypassing Congress 2 times to transfer weapons is unequivocally supporting genocide.
We should be criticizing our old, conservative president Biden. He needs to 180 his stance.
Also not voting for him in Nov is vapid and invalidates any defense of the Palestinian people you have.
It sucks, but it’s reality.
It sucks, but it’s reality.
Yep.
We legitimately have zero options besides voting for Biden.
And I sincerely hope enough voters realize that, because trump will be worse.
The only thing we can do till 2028 is make a lot of noise about how this shit is unacceptable and Dems need to do better
Unfortunately the DNC knows that while we say it’s unacceptable, we still have to vote Biden or risk trump.
Which is why the DNC has spent 30 years drifting further and further right. They have captive voters and are willing to risk Republican rule so Dems can be as rightwing as possible.
We legitimately have zero options besides voting for Biden.
If they stop funding israel and stop giving them arms, would it not get those votes back? are all of you really thinking biden would risk trump winning by refusing to halt arms and cash to israel and let the UN come to a ceasefire resolution? if its so dire, i think THEY have a responsibility to us and the palestinians. for one, all the money going to israel could go to be put to fixing our infrastructure, not destroying gaza’s. two, aren’t we going to need all these missiles and bombs for when we inevitably go to war with russia?
The only thing we can do till 2028 is make a lot of noise about how this shit is unacceptable and Dems need to do better
but just like every other election cycle, they will get their votes, continue on w/ biz as usual and then try to win our hearts again and/or fearmonger us again at the next election. with aipac and other big money donors doxxing and ousting progressives, i don’t foresee a functional left after this election, regardless. however, people are mobilizing over this issue and rightly so, its fucking genocide. there is no acceptable amount of genocide and there is no justifiable reason to continue funding and arming it.
They have captive voters and are willing to risk Republican rule so Dems can be as rightwing as possible.
It’s simply the logical thing for them to do, in the present state of things.
The far left / moderate left voters are captive for the reason you note. The party is closely aligned with center-left viewpoints, so they have their votes. The far / moderate right voters are all voting republican. It’s the swing voters / true centrists / center right voters who are up in the air, so those are the people the dems have to appease. So they drift further and further towards their viewpoints.
Unfortunately we can’t fix this situation without a healthy show that they don’t have the far left / moderate left votes guaranteed, and need to start paying attention to what we want, too… but we can’t do that without accepting a republican president, which we certainly can’t do right now. So we’re stuck. And it’ll just keep happening that way, because as dems drift further left, the republicans are just falling off the right end of the scale, and they keep falling further every year.
It’s simply the logical thing for them to do, in the present state of things
Except the last time we had a true progressive campaign…
A lot of those 1/3 of voter showed up. And we flipped a bunch of “red states” that the DNC had given up on those.
It’s not that those people won’t vote, they just won’t vote for candidates like Biden and Hillary.
But they turned up for Obama in 08.
We found something that worked, and the DNC’s response was to tighten down primaries so there wouldn’t be another upset.
Which has progressed to them straight up removing an entire states delegates.
Unfortunately we can’t fix this situation without a healthy show that they don’t have the far left / moderate left votes guaranteed, and need to start paying attention to what we want, to
I disagree.
I think if a moderate loses because they don’t get the progressive votes, then nothing will change. They’ll say that progressives are unreliable and this means they need to go further right.
Because we have decades of recent history that shows even if they still get the “lesser evil” votes, they’ll still say the same thing if they lose.
The only option is primaries, which is why I’m so pissed the DNC just vetoed a state primary by yanking delegates away.
If we don’t even have the primaries where the DNC openly say they can ignore results…
We’re kind of out of options.
And I legitimately don’t know what the path forward is. Or why everyone else isn’t shitting bricks right now.
If the DNC doesn’t get substantial pushback, they’re not going to just give up on this veto they just decided they’ll have.
Hell, Republicans will probably keep control of NH’s state goverment for the next four years, if they don’t agree to the DNCs demands about primary order, will NH Dems not get a say in 2028 either?
you can vote for cornel west or Jill Stein.
You misspelled “Trump”.
no, they are running against trump
That’s nice. They’ll lose, and the momentum put to that independent candidate is momentum that could have been used against Trump.
Voting for an independent candidate for president is standing on your rooftop and screaming “I LOVE TRUMP AND HOPE HE BECOMES PRESIDENT IN 2024”.
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This is honestly the best take on the issue I’ve seen so far.
I am the first person to say we need to break the two-party stranglehold on politics. We need independent candidates in office yesterday. But this election is the abso-fucking-lutely worst time to make a run at that, because that third party vote WILL be a vote for Trump. And if you firmly believe that third party or independent politicians have a place, elect them to your local city council or school board or state legislature. That is where they will make a real, actionable difference.
A vote against Biden, no matter who for, is a vote for Trump. No amount of TikTok “well ackshually” will change that reality.
last election biden and harris were on the working families party line which is third party. i’m not sure this time around but do y’all even know how third party works?
>that third party vote WILL be a vote for Trump.
I object to the characterization of candidates as "third party, but as far as I know, no one calls the Republicans a third party.
Please familiarize yourself with nomenclature before joining in on the conversation. It’s important we’re all on the same page to avoid confusion. Objecting to semantics is fine but doesn’t really add to anything in this context. It’s really just a distraction.
>A vote against Biden, no matter who for, is a vote for Trump.
this is election misinformation. a vote for anyone except trump cannot be counted as a vote for trump.
The election is a tug of war. Trump and his supporters are pulling on the right. Biden and his supporters are pulling on the left.
When you vote for an independent candidate, you are removing force that could have been used to pull against Trump and redirecting that force towards a candidate who has zero chance of winning. A vote for an independent candidate is a vote for Trump.
The only valid retort to this is “well I wasn’t going to vote anyway” and anyone who feels that way can shut the fuck up about everything.
A vote for an independent candidate is a vote for Trump.
No. It is a vote for an independent candidate.
Which will remove yet another barrier to Trump becoming president.
I’m all for breaking the two-party stranglehold but do it in a local election where it will make a difference. This year is the absolute worst year to try a failed presidential run.
>When you vote for an independent candidate, you are removing force that could have been used to pull against Trump
Jill Stein and Cornel West are running against trump.
That’s nice. They’ll lose, and the momentum put to that independent candidate is momentum that could have been used against Trump. Voting for either of them is a vote for “I am not interested in what happens in this country, and sincerely hope Trump wins. Because instead of voting against him, instead I choose to throw away my vote by making some kind of ‘statement’ that will never be heard by anyone.”
>A vote for an independent candidate is a vote for Trump.
no, it’s not. stop spreading misinformation
It absolutely is. You’re removing a vote that could have been used to stop Trump and throwing it into a candidate who will not win. You are, quite literally saying, “I am completely fine with another Trump presidency”.
There you go again with no concept of how politics works in this country. You are either a shill, or a completely naive person. A vote for a 3rd party candidate is as effective as not voting in the national results. Can you at least see that? When electoral votes are tallied, and NONE go to a 3rd party candidate, those votes are wasted.
I wish this country had a different voting system other than first past the goal posts, but it doesn’t so you need to be realistic in your vote.
I’ll be voting for Trump. I was in favor of his tough stance on illegal immigration, and I still am. Bring out the pitchforks Lemmy!
Why are you even here?
Isn’t this the Politics community? I mean, are all politics allowed…or, ONLY Left an Democrat politics? Smells very…Redditish to me…
There isnt a single positive thing on your profile, even on other boards, why would i assume you are here in good faith?
I’m here because I like to discuss politics. However, just like Reddit…it seems as if this community only leans one way. Sorry to inform you that politics in America is very broad…it’s not just about Democrats and Liberals.
I think taking the delegates from NH because moderates keep losing to progressives is a bigger deal that will effect turnout.
Biden’s and the DNC’s excuse that the state Dem party wasn’t able to convince the Republicans running NH into changing the law that NH has to schedule primaries first is an incredibly flimsy excuse.
There was nothing the NH Dem party could do to comply with the DNC.
And of all people, Biden should have been understanding that Dems can’t force Republicans to do something they don’t want to do.
Just making the demand to begin with was incredibly fucked up.
It was an impossible demand, and they act like it was an easy thing that the state party could somehow do with a snap of their fingers.
The only way it could have happened, is if the Dem party broke state law.
And a national party demanding a state party break their own laws to give the favored candidate an advantage is something I honestly thought would just be a Republican thing at least for a couple more elections cycles.
Oh look a concern troll that’s sooooooo concerned about NH and state party rules. This person 100% actually cares and isn’t just trying to suppress the left vote.
I’m concerned that the only other option in American politics besides trump just wiped out an entire states primary for something the state party can’t control…
If you’re not upset about what that means, I don’t know what else to say that wasn’t in my first comment.
I know you’re probably too young to know this, but you just described the American electoral process. This is how the incumbent advantage works. The overwhelming majority of the time, a party will not primary the incumbent candidate because it would be incredibly stupid.
Stop talking about it as if it’s in any way notable.
I’ll ignore the insults because I genuinely want to know and no one I ask ever responds again.
When was the last time a national party removed all primary delegates from a state for something the state party had zero control over?
For bonus points:
Was that a state where the party favorite came in last and the most progressive candidate won the last two primaries?
i’ve been watching this freight train loom ever closer and… thank you for seeing it too…
this is the albatross around the neck of biden… and it’s killing my soul
i know, in my heart, trump would’ve done the same thing, and many worse things…
but ffs, why are the liberals completely blind to a blatant genocide?Removed by mod
That’s rich. The onus is not on the people to support the Party over policy, it’s the responsibility is on the Party to appeal to the people.
We shouldn’t be blaming voters for the failings of the party and its politicians.
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Lmao nobody cares about Palestine
The article you’re commenting under is about people who care about Palestine.
What a stupid, useless thing to say.
My point is it will have no impact
You’re probably right sadly… People will blame that if Biden doesn’t get elected, but I don’t think it’ll sway things at all. Only the terminally online like us and redditors care about Palestinians.
When did lemmy become such a shithole? I know people here tend to be young, but I thought they were generally more intelligent than this shit. So much “genocide Joe” bullshit. People that will refuse to vote, and then completely absolve themselves when they hand it to Trump and the genocide escalates.
It’s not about Palestinian lives, it’s about making sure you don’t feel guilty for personally voting for Joe Biden.
Grow the fuck up
It’s just idiots, can’t escape them. Not on Reddit, not on Lemmy, and not when it comes to deciding our shared fate via elections. And I assume some portion of the “genocide Joe” crowd are just plants.
You can demand better from your elected officials, while continuing to vote for them. Joe is a horrible democrat candidate, and I have zero qualms about making that known. But he’s also the only candidate the party has been willing to put forth, so it’s who I’ll end up voting for. That doesn’t mean I need to be happy or enthusiastic about voting for him.
Biden is actively giving money to a genocidal state, I’m still going to vote for him because the only other choice is a literal fascist who wants to start genocides here as well.
So much “genocide Joe” bullshit. People that will refuse to vote, and then completely absolve themselves when they hand it to Trump and the genocide escalates.
One can literally hate Joe Biden, and still continue to vote for Joe Biden. If I am in the position of voting for democratic candidates that aren’t funded by AIPAC, and is willing to be critical against Israel, I’d vote for them unless forced to (the other candidate is a Republican.). I think the responsible thing to do is to continue criticizing the decision to support Israel, as well as their action, reject Hamas, vote for democratic candidates and try picking the ones that aren’t paid for by the AIPAC.
- Signed, a millenial Lemming.
I don’t think it’s that simple, especially for people of colour, and especially for those with Arab and especially Palestinian heritage.
America hasn’t been great to us ever. Since 2001 it has gotten distinctly worse for us.
A lot of us have family who are being or have been bombed by the US indiscriminately. The US and Joe Biden is funding a genocide. That’s not made up. That’s not a joke. The US is more upset that the Houthis raised global shipping by a couple percent than they are that the ally that they give the most money to has killed north of 25000 defenseless people in three months.
I agree that voting for trump is going to make it worse for everyone, which is why I will still vote for Biden. But I voted begrudgingly for him last time, because I knew he was fake, and not really liberal. He hasn’t stood by a single campaign promise he made. If a legitimate, liberal, left wing third party came up, I would vote for them immediately. Choosing between one racist piece of shit and a more racist, more orange piece of shit is not a great choice.
Again, I agree that trump would be a million times worse for brown and black people. But I get why a lot of Arab Americans and black Americans are fucking tired of it, and want to make a point to the DNC. That same party that is not a left wing party or a liberal party, that is completely bought out by corporations (ex. See how they fucked Bernie in 2016), and that will turn around and blame brown and black voters for not delivering them the white house when literally over half.of white women and white men want Donald Trump.
A lot of the people I’ve spoken to now are done. This was never really our country and politicians have made it even more obvious that it isn’t. So the idea that a lot of people have now is “well fuck it, why should we vote to save this country when the people who run this country keep.fucking it up and especially fucking us over. It’s time for whitey to do his/her part if they actually care, and if they don’t fuck it, we will leave”
It’s not about growing up, it’s about being tired of being second or third class citizens. The only reason this is getting such a big shout-out now is because the policies are finally starting to affect white people, white women in particular. And yet somehow.still over half of them want trump in.
He hasn’t stood by a single campaign promise he made
Honestly, if you think he hasn’t fulfilled any of his promises it’s because you don’t want to acknowledge his attempts and those who are standing in the way.
The ones saying that never do. They try to act like a promise means that whatever politician can make whatever thing happen all by themselves and if they can’t then it’s a lie.
These people would’ve been so deeply disappointed in a Bernie Sanders presidency. They can dream whatever they want but the GOP would’ve absolutely melted down and said “we’ll shut the whole government down before we let this socialist do anything he campaigned on”
I think you’re partially right, but Sanders would’ve used the bully pulpit to constantly castigate GOPers standing in his way (remember this is before MAGAts got elected). I think Bernie is far more effective on messaging than most other dems simply bc he doesn’t give af about calling people out.
Obama used the bully pulpit for that, too. I don’t feel like it moved the needle very much.
Ok, protesting and poking Joe with a stick is not the same as refusing to vote for him in the general election.
Lemmy is a younger user base, more technologically inclined and more prone to capture by social media propaganda.
This place is worse than Reddit in some respects. These people don’t gaf about the lives of people at risk, they care about satisfying their white saviour guilt being prompted by the tragedy du jour. There’s literally millions of Arabs in the immediate vicinity who are being killed by other Arabs and no one gives a flying fuck sadly.
Aren’t conspiracies spread on social media proliferating through the older demographic? I don’t think it’s unique to age.
I think there’s a difference between conspiracy and falling for misinformation if that makes sense…thin line though I’m sure. We’re all susceptible at some level.
That’s fair — I view the two as severity.
I’m youngish, and as I started my thirties I started to notice the most common thing with the young is they wield political theory a bit too homogeneously.
Like, when I realized I was a lefty in my twenties every issue started to be framed in how capitalism was the noxious root of the problem, but I lacked the real world context where pointing that out wasn’t helpful.
Now if someone came along with information that confirmed my perspective I used less scrutiny— because they were “like me” and “we’re one of the ‘good’ guys so they wouldn’t lie to me.” Now, I’m unsure if aging is going to make this better or worse tho 😅 I’m just more aware of it now.
They repeatedly stopped Biden, who appeared frustrated at times, with chants that included “Genocide Joe” and “How many kids will you kill?” in opposition to his support for Israel in its war against Hamas in Gaza.
Biden supporters drowned them out the protesters with chants of “four more years” and “let’s go, Joe.”
He struggled to finish his speech, telling the crowd at one point, “They feel deeply.”
Same article?
Liberals will still blame his (and Hillary Clinton’s) critics instead of the democrats’ bad policies and hubris for electing Donald Trump even though those same liberals still talk, think and act like republicans and willing just as much to throw the handicapped, the queer, the women and the racial minorities under the bus all just for neo-liberal policies that are not too different from Trump’s.
speaking of, much of what was done against abortion was not reversed and is destined to keep being dangled above those liberals’ head, and then they’ll say we shouldn’t criticize the holy neo liberal savior so he could reverse Trump’s clownery just for this to go all over again.
Free Women, Free Ukraine, Free Palestine (from Hamas AND Israel), Free America (from Trump)
If Republicans can vote for a rapist who promises to do away with America democracy, democrats can vote for a genocide supporter. Complaining about you chosen candidates doesn’t mean your aren’t going to vote for him.
It’s true for all of us if we pay tax.
The next one will be the one where he changes course… /s
This fucker will deliver Trump via israel and genocide.
Because Trump will be so much better on Israel and genocide!!!
Don’t you have a third choice?
Of course not. Democracy is not about choice!
Theoretically yes, but the first past the post system leads to really only having 2 choices.
Here’s a video with a good explanation, I believe it’s part of a short series if you like the first one.
I love how self-righteous the people calling him Genocide Joe are. It was about abortion rights. Did they bring up trans individuals or was that not cool enough to protest as well? I guess it’s cooler to protest for Palestinians than the trans people dying in your own country. Gotta get that clout 😎
Edit: I view you the same way you view hypocritical pro-lifers
One can support trans-individuals rights, and Palestinians suffering from their own leadership as well as the Likud party within Israel. In addition, we can do that while voting for Joe Biden, and voting against AIPAC-endorsed candidates.
I’m waiting to see it happen because I’m aware people can support more than one thing at once but the situation for trans people has gotten infinitely worse and with reproductive rights being gutted that puts us more at risk. And yet I don’t see anybody protesting for trans people dealing with these issues. It’s just crickets and no support.
I’m thinking that November is when you’ll see the votes showing support for trans-individuals and reproductive rights. In the case of men, you don’t see them in abortion-related protests all that often, but when it comes to the ballots, there’s quite a lot of men in favor of abortion.
This protest just makes you look like a fucking limp-wristed idiot.
Genocidal Joe will not win another election. We need to be reacting properly to that simple fact. The Democrats will be directly responsible for both Trump presidencies.
As will you.
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The Butcher of Palestine rolls more freely off my tongue
That’s Netanyahu.
That’s Biden
The president of the U.S. is more responsible for Palestinian deaths than the Prime Minister of Israel?
What a dumb take, this is why nobody takes you seriously.
When the US president is paying for those deaths in money and weapons, yes he is.
