Workers at the University of Hong Kong (HKU) removed the Tiananmen Massacre monument late on Wednesday night, months after the university said the statue must go. UPDATE: HKU cites ‘safety’ and ‘co…
  • pingveno@lemmy.ml
    225·
    3 years ago

    R.I.P. One country, two systems. If Beijing wanted Taiwan to rejoin willingly under a OCTS guarantee, their actions in Hong Kong have ensured that that will never happen, and Taiwan will fight like hell to stay an independent country.

    • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.ml
      138·
      3 years ago

      Taiwan just saw a 50% increase in trade with China, and China now amounts to 36% of its GDP. If push comes to shove Taiwan will absolutely repatriate. It’s also worth noting that Taiwan is currently in the best possible position to negotiate with China, and large portions of the population as well as military are in support of it.

      edit: people downvoting are free to explain what they disagree with here

      • pingveno@lemmy.ml
        32·
        3 years ago

        Yes there’s been a thawing of relationships around trade as of late, but the notion that any significant portion of the population wants reunification under the CCP is not remotely true. Of the three polls I could find on the subject taken recently, all had reunification around 10%. It’s not clear how many would like that to be with Taiwan, not the PRC, as government.

        • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.ml
          113·
          3 years ago

          10% is significant and if the question becomes war or reunification I’d wager that number would go up quite a bit. Ultimately, Taiwan is just a geopolitical pawn for US, and people there are going to realize this sooner or later. CPC tends to play the long game, and what I expect will happen is that they will continue to creating more economic ties and that will necessarily translate into closer ties overall.

    • southerntofu@lemmy.ml
      147·
      3 years ago

      No matter what i think of a specific Nation-State, i think separatism should always be supported uncritically. That’s like Consent 101. In the name of what would you impose on people to be part of something they don’t want to be part of?!

      Who cares if it’s China? In France many people aim for autonomy, too, in the colonized regions from Guadeloupe to Corse or Bretagne/Kanaky. If you pretend to support freedom for people/communities, then you should probably support these anti-colonial struggles too.

      • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.ml
        133·
        3 years ago

        That’s a really naive view of the world. A small place like Hong Kong is never going to be independent in practice. So, it’s not a question of whether they’re independent from China, but rather whether they’re going to be under Chinese or western influence.

        Meanwhile, it’s also absurd to homogenize people. The reality is that majority of people in HK aren’t exactly against China. There is also a long documented history of US being involved in the drive for separatism.

        • southerntofu@lemmy.ml
          24·
          3 years ago

          Depends what you call “independant”. Of course they’re not gonna be 100% resource-sufficient and that’s OK. But why would you have to choose under whose umbrella to hide? Can’t an independent nation conduct partnership and trade with “both” sides (or more)? I mean if in your view humanity requires choosing a side between different colonial Empires, i’d rather not live in this world.

          • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.ml
            5·
            3 years ago

            I’m talking about politics. Most countries in the world have to deal with US in terms of funding politicians, spreading propaganda in the media, and economic coercion. Ultimately, when US doesn’t get what it wants then they will fund protests, civil unrest, death squads, and coups in your country. Many books have been written on this subject. The Jakarta Method is a very good read on what happens to countries that try to be independent.

            There is no such animal as an independent nation in the real world that we live in. Whether you choose to engage with reality or not is of course your choice.

            edit: spelling

            • southerntofu@lemmy.ml
              21·
              3 years ago

              There’s a few semi-independent nations, although i agree colonial sabotage and psyops is definitely a thing. Whether you choose to continue with this imperialist status quo or not is of course your choice.

              • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.ml
                4·
                3 years ago

                All nations fall under some larger umbrella in practice. Meanwhile, whether large nations are going act the way they act is not my choice at all actually. The only choice an individual has is to engage with the facts.

                • southerntofu@lemmy.ml
                  12·
                  3 years ago

                  OK so if we agree there’s some things we’re powerless in regards to, can we agree we should live our lives regardless of their positions and not try to accommodate their tyrannical desires in the name of defending the lesser evil?

        • poVoq@lemmy.ml
          43·
          3 years ago

          I think the argument was rather that even if separatism would lead to objectively worse outcomes, forcing someone to stay together as one country would still be (morally) wrong.

          And it is highly questionable if it leads to objectively worse outcomes at least when cooperation is still possible. The problem is usually that one side tries to force the issue and that leads to bitterness on both sides and thus cooperation becomes impossible.

            • poVoq@lemmy.ml
              11·
              3 years ago

              Borders are arbitrary. People might as well say the best outcome would be a capitalist world government. So those separatist Chinese that insist on having their own flavor of Capitalism should really just think more of the prosperity of the people ( /s obviously).

              In the end the prosperity of the people does indeed matter more, but arbitrary lines on a map only become an issue for that when people make them so. There is nothing inherently problematic in having decentralized means of administration under different flags as long as everyone cooperates.

        • southerntofu@lemmy.ml
          23·
          3 years ago

          Separatism is not exactly a good thing

          I think the misunderstanding comes from what the word means. Some people use it to designate the rule of someone else, as in the examples you mentioned. I personally advocate for autonomy (decentralized power) which also fits under that umbrella.

          So yes, context matters. But consent matters even more so. I never consented to live under the rule of the French Empire and every day of my life i suffer due to that. The same is true with many people. In the name of what would you refuse us the right to build our own autonomous commune as is illegal by French law?

            • southerntofu@lemmy.ml
              32·
              3 years ago

              Reasoning with those in power does not work: those from the ZAD who tried to negotiate with the State ended up betraying/destroying the ZAD (it’s now all legalized and mostly populated by hipsters and bourgeois). Going all guerilla warfare on your government is a valid strategy, but arguably modern empires have become too resilient for that to work. Mounting a legal political party for your cause seems useless: even a formally-elected government like in Catalonia will get repressed by the State for trying to separate.

              Yeah there’s a lot we can do and i guess both of us are involved in various projects AFK, but still when you boil it down to personal/communal consent, Nation States are always the enemy of the people.

                • southerntofu@lemmy.ml
                  11·
                  3 years ago

                  I’m not morally opposed to “work from within” as long as you don’t become corrupted. I just don’t know of a single example of this strategy working to produce any significant change, but i do know many examples of people betraying their cause due to working within the system.

      • ndarwincorn@lemmy.ml
        53·
        3 years ago

        In this case, your uncritical support for separatism is indistinguishable from uncritical support for Anglo colonialism.

        Uncritical support for repatriation from settler colonists and their collaborators.

        • southerntofu@lemmy.ml
          33·
          3 years ago

          “In this case, your uncritical support for refusing sex is indistinguishable from uncritical support of rape”

          Do you realize how horrible what you’re saying is? If my community doesn’t want to be part of your colonial Empire, just kill us already but don’t pretend we have a moral obligation to live by your rules.

          • ndarwincorn@lemmy.ml
            3·
            3 years ago

            Do you realize pee pee poo poo?

            The colonizers in this case are Anglo. You’re participating in an anglophone forum. Idgaf what you have to say about colonial empires.

            • southerntofu@lemmy.ml
              21·
              3 years ago

              So what? Did you read me defending western Empires? No. But i do read you defending the Chinese empire, and that worries me. If you want to build communism, the first step is to abolish all Nation States for they are bourgeois constructs controlling the people.

    • th0mcat@talk.thomcat.rocks
      41·
      3 years ago

      I’m confused. Are you downplaying what happened? Or stating that it never happened? Or that it happened, but the US has twisted/lied about what happened?

    • plu@lemmy.ml
      44·
      3 years ago

      Many people protesting @ Tiananmen Square were Maoists…

        • plu@lemmy.ml
          12·
          3 years ago

          It’s insane being an actually real-life organized socialist with natural contacts to the communist opposition in China, and then looking in the online world to see teenagers stanning the PRC because it has a red flag.

    • iagev@lemmy.ml
      44·
      3 years ago

      Are they really that weak that they cannot abide these things?

    • Jedrax@lemmy.ml
      416·
      3 years ago

      Congrats, no one will every take anything you say seriously on this platform again. I think I should start a list of communist/Chinese apologists on this platform and keep it public.

      Edit: Propagandists

      • OsrsNeedsF2P@lemmy.ml
        35·
        3 years ago

        For someone with (seemingly) Western values, you sure are against people having different opinions than you

        I mean look, I even had a community on Lemmy.ml banned (/c/IsTaiwanACountry) because of its moderate anti-CCP stance and enough people complained. While that’s obviously BS on behalf of the Lemmy admins, it doesn’t immediately discredit everyone who got the community banned