This it the bottom so far you mean.
Next bottom is whether the infants are conspirators or not.
Even better, infant body armor
How did you get hold of Hamas training materiel?
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OK, that’s absolutely fucked up.
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Its hard to imagine how it could dive down even further but to their credit those mossad lads are clever propagandists. But I don’t know like.
those mossad lads are clever propagandists
I believe Mossad is special forces and intelligence gathering, not PR/propaganda dissemination. These are the agencies you’re thinking of. That’s like saying Navy Seals or the CIA are responsible for white house press briefings.
I honestly wonder what the fuck every israeli intel agency was doing, it as the anniversary of the Yom Kippur war, how did they not see SOMETHING coming is beyond my ability to comprehend
Evil tongues suggest they might have been looking away.
I also find it weird how Israel claims since 5 weeks theyd be shelling thousands of terrorist targets, having intricate knowledge of where these are. But apparently Israel didnt notice anything unusual happening there that would indicate an imminent attack…
I remember the discussions in the months prior to Russia invading Ukraine, where activities were noticed to prepare the attack and question was, if Russia is going to or not.
How the fuck are invasion preparations on known sites in a tiny and well surveilled totally surrounded are not noted?
Based on what I have read the Oct 7 attack was not planned through known sites, possibly by word of mouth.
Russia has a lot more equipment to move via logistics than Hamas does for guerilla attacks, they amassed on the Ukraine border before the invasion.They used, among other things: over 5.000 rockets, drones, anti-tank launchers, anti-air launchers, motorized paragliders, dozens of cars and thousands of firearms.
You cannot amass these things by “word of mouth”. And if Israel didn’t know where these 5.000 rockets were launched from, then their claim about knowing where all the terrorist targets would be, seems not very believable.
You cannot amass these things by “word of mouth”.
One certainly could. The biggest, most complicated war in human history was waged long before the internet was created, all logistics needed coordinated offline.
if Israel didn’t know where these 5.000 rockets were launched from
They were launched from Gaza.
Sadly war sucks ass.
If it was a command post then there must be a path for Israel to attack. It’s not like Hamas gets to use “one weird trick” to exclude their command center from being a valid target.
If Israel thought it was a military target, did every thing else right, but sucked up then it’s a sucky product of urban war.
If Israel knew it was really only a hospital and attacked anyway — then they are morally and strategically fucked. Rightfully so. (Kinda like how other countries have also overreacted to a terrorist attack and gone after the wrong target).
And of course the reality of all this probably doesn’t matters because a large number of people make up their mind first and from then on ignore and other intelligence even when it’s gathered.
as usual with this shit show of a conflict, it seems both sides are awful: hamas used the hospital as a command post which means israel has to be able to attack it, however attacking it with indiscriminate shelling is absolutely unacceptable
both entities are completely unacceptable… debating which one is more so is outrageous, and if anyone “sides” with either one they’re morally corrupt, brainwashed, or too stupid to comprehend anything but binaries
The thingis that often siding with the people in Gaza who are living in hell rightnow is intentionally misunderstood as siding with Hamas.
oh 100%!
and there are so many disingenuous arguments going around like “they voted for hamas! fuck around and find out!”… well, if you think that then you don’t get to complain about american politics (as most people do): https://www.snopes.com/news/2023/11/01/majority-palestinians-gaza-elect-hamas/
they voted for hamas…
The fact that a lot of people ignore that the Palestinians fought a civil war precisely to not have Hamas in power and lost Gaza to a Hamas takeover after the last election (2006) tells you that the zionist propaganda engines are well oiled and working.
Using a hospital as a hostage and bombing a hospital are two acts so beyond the pale that it’s pointless to argue which is worse. Both are incredibly fucked up.
Judging from the comments, we can go lower.
“Truly this is the bottom”
Conservatives everywhere brandishing shovels: “Challenge accepted”
Someone just called this post “pearl clutching” in this very thread. We’re fucked.
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Dang dude, I guess everyone upset over the October 7th Hamas attacks are “pearl clutching” because Israelis died. “It’s just war, bro”
All I know is I have heat, fresh water, plenty of food, and today is my day off. The last people who were indiscriminately killed on these lands was 200 years ago and the biggest looming threat is NAZIs who I am not a target of other than my controversial political speech.
Can I be the most callous now? There are millions of us.
I believe they are referring to the selective outrage that this conflict has generated. Far more innocent civilians have been killed in places like Syria, Tigray, Yemen and Ukraine, but none of them, not even Ukraine, has generated anywhere near the amount of outrage among parts of the left as has the situation in Gaza.
Not even Ukraine? Man I still see people flying Ukraine flags all over my very suburban neighborhood. In a way I certainly don’t for Palestine, or Israel for that matter.
I don’t see how that diminishes anything from the current situation in Palestine. Honestly it kind of feels like a cop out way to pretend not to care. “It’s happening in these places, too, so calm down” seems like a strange way to show support for other oppressed people’s.
Ukraine was all over my circles, real and online. Maybe you hung around a different crowd?
Just wait until they find out about the Iraqi war. 1 million dead civilians. We technically committed genocide based on a lie.
No one from that administration has been held accountable despite us now knowing that they knew it was a lie at the time (WMDs). If there was any justice Dick Cheney would have been hung long ago.
I like your outlook. Besides your general observation of the Lemmy hivemind, let us know what you think about the conflict itself
To people saying it’s justified because Hamas are hiding there, if Hamas wants to kill as many Israelis as possible they could hide in a Israeli hospital and the IDF, being consistent, would bomb it just the same since it now became a military target. Right?
Yeah, you know they wouldn’t, not the same way at least. Somehow Palestinians are an acceptable collateral while Israeli, specially Jews, would never be. That’s how you know this isn’t about Hamas.
Very good point! I will steal it and pretend I’m as smart as you
Except Hamas is the government in Gaza and can setup pretty much whatever situation it wants to there, while it is hated in Israel outside of Gaza and would be prevented from taking an Israeli hospital and constructing elaborate tunnels under it. That’s kind of like saying “If Russia wants Ukraine so bad, why doesn’t it just take Kyiv?” Because it can’t. There’s a bunch of obstacles stopping it, otherwise it obviously would.
Without being too serious, don’t give the terrorists good ideas 🤣
Can’t tell if you’re just trying to sound ironically dumb or not?
Israel would storm it’s own hospital with troops as would any other country. Bombs were used in Gaza before there was security on the ground. Dropping special forces off in the middle of Hamas held territory would turn into Black Hawk Down 2
You think Israel would just let them take one of their hospital in the first place ? Why would that happen in the first place ? There would be an immediate military intervention , before they are deeply embedded
In Palestine tho, hamas does what it wants. And nobody is there to stop them. So they already are in the hospitals, and in the streets leading to hospital, and watching the neighborhood where those are.
Who would think that in a war, the people opposing you would be treated differently than your own people? This is the reality of war and not specific to this conflict.
The civilians of Palestine are not the “opposition”
The truth finds its way to the mouth.
The question is do Jewish people expect mercy from the one above? Or do they think the lord is someone they’ll explain themselves to and is supposed to be their friend and just be like yeah sweet? Like imagine how disappointed that a higher power or super intelligence would be 🤣
And if it turns out that the accusation Hamas was using the basement as a command post is true, is that the new bottom?
I mean what’s worse: using a human shield, or deciding “nah fuck them kids shoot through them anyway.”
What if they were shooting your kids while hiding behind their own? Would you let them keep doing it while insisting that reprisals are off limits?
Yeah, this is the problem I’m having with people picking sides. It’s a giant crap-pile of the worst of humanity. People act like there’s a good side. Nah, everything’s a mess of generational hatred and I hate it all.
There needs to be a cease-fire. Hamas needs to release all hostages and then be permanently removed from power in Gaza, and Israel needs to help the Palestinians rebuild what has been destroyed, burry their dead with dignity and respect, and heavily compensate the families of those who have died.
The whole thing is out of control
There was a ceasefire, then Hamas attacked. Hard to rebuild trust after that.
That may be so, but Israel clearly has the upper hand right now. It’s within their power to put the breaks on. I understand the depth of their rage after what Hamas did, but they shouldn’t soothe their sorrow with the blood of innocents
If only they were at level hand, then the killing would be okey dokey.
I dont understand your comment. What do you mean “if only they were at level hand?”
Interesting that you mentioned the removal of Hamas from power but not the current Isreali government.
If polling is accurate, they will be voted out soon enough. To remove Hamas one needs the ammo box, as they have removed the ballot box as an option.
True, but it doesn’t require killing civilians to accomplish. Just assassinate the Hammas leadership until there’s no one left who wants to risk it. Mossad is pretty good at tracking people down.
Cut off the head and the body will die.
But, that’s pretending that Israel just wants to protect itself instead of looking for an excuse to genocide.
OOOoh now I understand! Just kill Hamas, it’s easy! Wish we’d thought of that sooner. Wow, war must be a breeze. No innocents ever die in wars!
If we wanted a genocide it would have happened a hell of a lot quicker. Bombing the places where the refugees are gathered, for example, instead of telling them to get out of harm’s way.
The whole situation is fucked, and war is fucked. There are no easy answers.
And the IDF will bomb as many civilians as they need to to remove them from power!
The government of Israel is at least somewhat democratic. That makes removing it a bit more thorny than removing an organization like Hamas, because one either has to effectively just force an election there, which carries the risk that the same people (or people with the same ideology, if you forbid the specific people currently in power) might just win it and keep things the same, or replace the entire system with something that isn’t democratic, which is generally viewed as a bad thing in itself. It’s also move salvageable though for the same reason: there’s little chance that someone wanting peace and resolution will somehow take over Hamas, it would be antithetical to what their organization even is, but the policies of a government like Isreal’s at least have the potential to dramatically shift if people wanting those things take hold of it.
Sure that can change, too. I don’t live there, so it didn’t come to mind. My desires mean nothing to anyone by me- but I want the violence to stop.
I can’t imagine that the Israeli people so close to the border are just totally fine with what happened to the civilians and likely would want their government overhauled- but again, I don’t live there. I only know what the media as told me, and I acknowledge that all that could even be a lie.
It’s messy
Indeed it is messy. But “removing” Hamas from power is about as easy as “removing” Bibi and his cabal from power. They feed off each other, and blame each other just enough to sway their populace into letting them stay in power.
The problem isn’t as easily fixed as “just take Hamas… and put it over there”.
Never said it was.
I have no stakes in the game. Just an opinion
Bibi can be removed via an election. There literally does not exist a method of removing Hamas other than violence, either from the people of Gaza or an external force.
Every government should be removed from power
That’s why you don’t pick sides
For sure. It’s hard to know what’s true and what isn’t. All we know is what the media tells us. Hopefully we’ll know at some point
There’s an infinite spectrum between “not shooting children” and “letting the other guy shoot yours”
Also, this “oh we’re so much better and civilized” act really falls short when it has to be explained to you why shooting children is still bad even when you do it.
False dilemma. There are ways to react that don’t involve shooting children.
Even if there weren’t, I wouldn’t say “yeah shoot some children.”
You’re misrepresenting my position. It’s, “yeah definitely shoot the terrorist, try to avoid shooting their hostages if you can.”
That isn’t an option atm so just a pointless strawman being propped up.
My dude, you’re arguing that a certain amount of shooting children is okay. If you can’t see how this is a problem I don’t know what else to say.
As are you? If they don’t take out the military targets, kids die. It’s essentially lose lose for the civilans, but one course of action leads to bot prolonging child murder.
Nope. Preemptive killing is not justifiable. No children are saved by the killing of these children.
In fact all that is being done is assuring the next generation of terrorists.
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Wouldn’t proportionality be a thing here? Reprisals would be acceptable if they did not result in a disproportionate loss of innocent civilians. Unfortunately it seems like Palestinian children’s lives are much cheaper than Israeli lives. I hate saying it because I think all children deserve protection regardless of the actions of the people in power, be it hamas or idf.
Also the comparision isnt Palestinian children vs Israeli children. It is Palestinian children vs. grown armed men and women aka Soldiers.
Israel could have worked with insurgencies to target Hamas specifically, without having to bomb everything to rubble. That would have risked more soldiers lives though.
So they are weighting their soldiers lifes at a rate of about 200 Palestinains of which 80 are children.
For comparision. In WW2 about 4 Ally soldiers died for one civillian death in the Axis and about 6 Ally civillians, mostly Chinese, Polish, Ukranian and Russian, died for every Axis soldier. So the war of total annhilation, with death squads eradicating entire villages and concentration camps for mass murder still had a much lower rate of civillian to military deaths.
Well, didn’t take long at all to find a new low.
Yes? What kind of question is that? If you answer no to that you’re saying I’m no better than them, and if you’re ok with that then what is your moral high ground here?
really? you would let them continue killing your kids? tell me you don’t have kids without telling me you don’t have kids 😆
How good of you to put words in my mouth. I would not kill your children if you killed mine. You’re fair game but I’m not gonna shoot your children and any other children nearby to get to you. This is not a tricky moral question.
question was:
What if they were shooting your kids while hiding behind their own?
and your reply was
yes
albeit with a question mark, but you followed by explicitly refuting the “no” answer
If you answer no to that you’re saying I’m no better than them, and if you’re ok with that then what is your moral high ground here?
what exactly am i putting in your mouth?
I don’t know how to explain to you that it’s wrong to kill their kids even if they’ve killed your kids. Especially when you seem determined to misconstrue anything I write.
Would you let them keep doing it while insisting that reprisals are off limits?
Yes
Nice of you to value their citizens’ lives above your own. I doubt that will be much of a consolation for your countrymen that you’re willing to sacrifice to violence. Expect more human shields in the future now that you’ve proven the tactic so effective.
What kind of question is that?
A moral dilemma.
If you answer no to that you’re saying I’m no better than them, and if you’re ok with that then what is your moral high ground here?
If you answered no to that I’d say you’re honestly assessing the grim realities of war, where the goal is to pacify the enemy without sacrificing your own people, even if that may result in collateral damage.
Nice of you to value their citizens’ lives above your own.
the question wasn’t about your citizens, it was about your kids. which makes his answer even more laughable.
For purposes of this conversation you can use citizens, civilians, and children interchangeably. All are examples of collateral damage, and many of Hamas’ human shields will fit into multiple categories.
For purposes of this conversation you can use citizens, civilians, and children interchangeably
no, you cannot, read the conversation again.
most people have closer relationship to their own kids than to some other random co-citizen. so if some clown claims, for a sake of his argument, that he would be willing to sacrifice his own kids to protect… literally anyone else, you know he is a moron, or a liar. or both.
All are examples of collateral damage, and many of Hamas’ human shields will fit into multiple categories.
sure, but that was not the point of my remark.
They just love their non-representative and in no way realistic strawman.
Hamas barely has any power against Israel and two wrongs don’t make a right. Killing children is off limits period. Dosen’t matter who is hiding behind them. Also the children are not Hamas’s kids. If you decide to shoot a innocent child you deserve go to hell there is no buts.
Hamas barely has any power against Israel
Indeed. It would be nice if they would acknowledge the reality of their situation. Maybe they would release the hostages, lay down arms, and sue for peace, if they acknowledged as you do that they don’t have any hope against winning against Israel with violence.
the children are not Hamas’s kids.
The children that they hide behind are Palestinian children. Hamas is the government of Gaza and every citizen there is under their jurisdiction and control until they are deposed; i.e., “theirs.”
two wrongs don’t make a right
War is always ethically shitty, but I see no other option for Israel at this point. If they don’t meet violence with violence and achieve meaningful objectives to keep themselves safe in response to Hamas’ mass slaughter, it’s just begging for more of the same in the future. War is what happens when deterrence fails, perhaps this will serve as an example to those who would consider attacking Israel next time of the consequences.
If you decide to shoot a innocent child you deserve go to hell there is no buts.
Israel’s intention is not to shoot children being used as shields. It is to neutralize the one shooting from behind them, even if there’s significant risk of hitting a human shield. This devalues the strategy and discourages such people from using human shields in the future. It’s the same reason one does not negotiate for hostages, it encourages future hostage taking. You let this be a viable strategy that deters reprisal, expect more of it.
I don’t want to flame but I am just going to put this here: A person was faced with the choice to kill a innocent child or not do anything. They chose to kill a innocent child. Doesn’t matter who is behind them you still shot to kill the child. They deserve to burn.
Kill a child or watch the person behind the child kill your child. Ftfy
Something about two wrongs…
No you killed a child period. This has nothing to do with your child dying. Killing a child dosen’t stop your own child from being killled.
Still not a good reason to kill babies…
They had tunnels under it and the Israelis needed an excuse for having hit a Hospital when they were carpet bombing. So, no, there was no command post. No one shall ever be shown anything but the photos which could have been taken anywhere. None of which would change the bottom that bibi and hamas are the same picture.
Demanding an evacuation of a hospital full of patients, under the threat of bombardment, only for those patients to die of complications for not being treated, this is just a more silent mass murder.
It would be cool if Hamas didn’t fire rockets from the vicinity of schools of hospitals though wouldn’t it?
These two points are not antithetical.
It would be cool if the counter battery from a highly technical country hit the rockets instead of collapsed the building. Which is entirely possible.
There’s definitely no possibility that Israel does stuff like that and then blames it on its enemies to justify its actions. No way.
It’s like everyone’s opinion is “my tribe is always right and deserves all the sympathy, the other tribe is always wrong and deserves all the suffering”. No one cares about solutions or examining why a conflict has persisted for 80 years. Humans are so predictable.
It’s not even “my tribe”.
Hardly anyone posting here is Israeli or Palestinian. It’s just distracting nonsense to divide us. Pick a side plebs. Look, those people have picked the other side. Hate them!
Hey this guy hasn’t picked a side, get them!
I wish two groups of people determined to kill each other could take it away from the civilian population, to say nothing of using human shields and attacking irrespective of potential collateral damage and non combatant deaths
More like two groups of people determined to kill civilian populations. Keeping it away from civilians would defeat the whole purpose.
No, we’re finding new ways to commit familicide though!
Enlightened, middle-ground centrist. We found you.
Friendly reminder that a defining characteristic of a fascist is drawing hard in-group out-group lines.
(And another is the fetishization and glorification of violence against the out-group)
Wait, I’m even more confused. Are you saying the OP who posted is creating the demarcations for groups?
The person who I am directly replying to.
But make no mistake, Israel is also fascist af.
Wish there was common nomenclature for referring to posters or parts of a comment to make the context clearer. Friends say I am on the spectrum but the Psychologist said that doesn’t seem to be the case.
Like, OP1 is lame, OP2 supports genocide, etc. to clarify within a thread without having to quote or @ which I find a bit clumsy and generally gets in the way of flow.
This sounds like a great idea!
I’ll clarify, I’m just putting out a reminder that being fascist is not an inherent trait, like green eyes or dark skin. Literally anyone can fall into the trap of fascist thinking. The only way to be truly anti-fascist is to recognize the warning signs in your own thoughts and worldview.
So centrism can sometimes be a trap, but don’t demonize the practice of seeing both sides. Taking a hard line with one sides is a step on the path to becoming a fascist.
Pretty non fascist to my understanding. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Karra
Ah yes, the “I have a black friend” defense.
If you have a Jewish friends then you really aren’t anti semitic are you?
Such a smooth brain comment.
Not to mention a huge amount of Israelis themselves criticise the current government and what it’s done.
“Only a sith deals in absolutes!”
That sounds like an “absolute” statement to me!
Glory to the Absolute!
yup agreed?
Would that still count if it’s “In group = civilians” " out group = organizations killing civilians"?
The bottom so far
Does no one remember the 1 million innocent Iraqis we killed based on a lie?
I would argue that is the most recent rock bottom we have come to since world war II.
We bombed people in their homes relentlessly. They were not going after military targets, it was an indiscriminate slaughter of mostly innocent people. Hundreds of thousands of children.
We have committed genocide purely for profit and power, very recently. Remember that when our government tries to defend Israel’s actions. They are following our playbook.
There have been leaked conversations from Israeli officials stating that the war between them and Hamas helps them maintain power over Israeli citizens. They are creating more terrorists on purpose to leverage control over their people. What else happens when your family gets eradicated in a bombing? You go after those that are responsible, and joining Hamas is the easiest route to exact your revenge on those who killed your family.
That study was pulled for being ridiculous. The Iraq Body Count Project estimates 7300 civilian deaths over a far larger operations area, with far more forces involved, March 21 to May 1.
Nowhere near the nightmare fuel of total familicide 🤣
That’s because apparently someone decided, without discussion, that setting military headquarters in a hospital - where babies are born - is absolutely fine and moral move.
Killing a building full of women and children to go after a group of people who may or may not be in said building after they killed women and children…
Two unscrupulous groups are willing to murder innocent civilians. Sounds like two groups of terrorists.
Fuck Hammas, fuck the IDF. I’m absolutely fine with them killing each other. I’m not okay with the fact that they’re both using innocent civilians as pawns.
That’s a point of view I am willing to accept
The difference being the IDF has consistently gone to pretty significant lengths to warn civilians and give them time to evacuate. Hamas has not and in fact specifically targets civilians. These groups are not the same.
The difference being the IDF has consistently gone to pretty significant lengths to warn civilians and give them time to evacuate.
True, but then to bombard from the air destroying whole buildings and killing many civilians to get to a few combatants under the building is not an ethical or moral move either. You don’t get a get out of jail free card for notifying up front, you have to follow through.
Telling someone to evacuate is not enough, you have to verify they have evacuated. If they have not, you should be instead sending in ground troops, and yes with a larger cost in lives and political turmoil, but that is the ethical way.
Non-combatants are not supposed to be involved in combat.
Bullshit. There’s evidence of some warnings but with literally thousands of air strikes a week there literally isn’t the resources to warn everyone like they did during the “cease fire”. And you don’t get 10,000 civilians dead in a month by warning them.
Last I saw Hamas wasn’t troubling themselves with giving ANY warnings. I’d say some>none. Where is the moral equivalence you so desperately want?
It doesn’t matter how much you warn them if there’s no military presence. The warnings they do give are nothing but a fig leaf to cover up war crimes
He said, believing the IOF, who has killed Palestinians with absolute impunity, and lying through the teeth about it
What would convince you? Based on what I can glean from various sources, it seems at least likely that the claim is true. I also don’t see what incentive the Israelis have to lie about it.
While it does seem plausible. You don’t see what incentive the Israelis have to lie about it? Really?
Well think about it for a moment. What I mean is that they already know that they will be accused of lying regardless, so why bother “fabricating” an ambiguous account when they could just as easily lie and claim that they found a giant Hamas command center?
In other words, they have no incentive to lie about the attack having achieved ambiguous results unless they are actually telling the truth. If you are going to lie, and if you know you won’t be believed regardless, why not go whole hog?
Again, they have no incentive to half-ass it unless they’re simply stating the truth.
If they don’t have something believable then the Boycott, Divest, and Sanction movement will cut off their Western support and see them on trial in the Hague.
Getting the lie right or persuading the world they really really did believe this has literal existential consequences for the politicians and generals.
Historians call that the Criterion of Embarrassment.
Sure where is the evidence of all those tunnels? Get outta here IDF shill.
It’s under all the rubble, just like the Intel on where the hostages are. 🙄
OMG Guys a large hospital has maintenance tunnels!
Until they release the drone footage of a command center down there it’s just infrastructure they’re making shit up about.
Huh?
Don’t forget the hasbara bots upvoting him!
Has there even been any evidence of that?
Yea there’s no consensus that the ‘evidence’ produced is reliable. At first IDF showed the hatch to a water cistern and said it was the hatch to the network of tunnels. This new photo could just be a hole in the ground. The tour through the MRI room and truck loaded with weapons could be easily planted. Independent investigations like Forensic Architecture have found discrepancies and raised questions over the legitimacy of IDFs claims. Al Jazeera has reported that IDF had misreported facts to build a narrative.
US intelligence agrees that Hamas was operating out of the hospital, but there not much else backing up these claims right now.
**edited to remove a bad source
"Cobb-Smith has joined with the most politicized anti-Israel NGOs in pushing false or unsubstantiated accusations of Israeli violations of the laws of war […] In particular, he circulated false claims (“there was no tactical reason; there was no reasonable use of that weapon system”) as well as claims (later discredited) that the IDF used white phosphorous “in an illegal manner.” Similarly, he has been involved with the campaigns of the anti-Israel NGO known as Forensic Architecture.
Oh okey, I understand better what you mean by “not much to back those claims”
I did some quick searches on him and saw he was with amnesty international. This didn’t come up for me. I’ll remove him as a reference. Appreciate the insight to him.
They pulled that from a site called NGO-Monitor. It’s a right wing Israeli outlet that exists specifically to dismiss claims from international NGOs. It’s about as credible as the government itself denying it committed crimes.
Eh, either way, discrediting him doesn’t discredit my argument.
Except there’s very credible evidence Israel uses WP illegally. There’s literally photos of it available online. Is that the IDF calling him biased or what?
“IDF says…”
Of course. What reason would they have to lie? /s
Maybe we should wait until there’s been a more neutral investigation before deciding it’s one hundred percent true.
What I never understand about major news stories is that so many people take everything they see at face value and then consider it indisputable fact. When there’s an international war going on, no one thinks that just maybe we’re only getting a fraction of reality communicated to us? That it must be the worst game of telephone in terms of accuracy? But then if someone even suggests that maybe there’s more to the story, they’re conspiracy theorists or they get told what “side” they’re on.
We should all be at least somewhat discerning. There’s so many different actors with interests in this war. We have no idea what else could be going on that we will never, ever hear about, nor how much spin is being put on the stuff we do hear about.
Do you really think only you had this thought? Don’t you think this is exactly what I think about your opinions? And telling this in my face literally does nothing because I am just as convinced that you gobble up Al-Jazeera/Hamas propaganda as, supposedly, I am gobbling up Israeli propaganda?
Come down to Earth buddy
You are wildly bad faith all over the comments, wow.
You went too “down to earth” and need to pull your head outta sand or whatever dark hole you have it shoved into.
If you consider logical implications “a bad faith” we have nothing to talk about
We need a hell of a lot more evidence to support that than we’ve seen, it would still run into major problems with proportionality/distinction standards regarding all the civilians they killed in and around the hospital, and it wouldn’t make a scratch with regard to the other civilian infrastructure they’ve targeted.
Tactical placement and all haha
So then when terrorists use human shields, which in this case include literal babies, it’s okay to ignore the human shields and just indiscriminately attack?
I didn’t say “it was okey”. I said i do understand why that happens. I am also saying Israel takes some steps to limit the number of civil victims, while Hamas takes none
Hamas has a different agenda. It’s an asymmetrical conflict. The intention of Hamas and Hezbollah is to provoke Israel into a genocide. Hiding among the trees to incite Netanyahu to burn down the forest.
They want nothing more then to get on video Israeli forces massacring thousands of Palestinian civilians.
So for Hamas, it’s Christmas.
What was the correct response, according to you?
Not bombing a hospital.
I’m not an expert. So I’d defer to Lt. General James Glynn, survivor of Fallujah on how to approach the situation in Gaza.
I’d also refer to centuries of counter-insurgency that notes that massacring civilians only drives more recruits to the enemy cause, often recruits who are willing to engage in suicide missions.
Even leaving the hospital intact and doing nothing was a better option, and in fact, Israel is not fighting a war of desperation, and can actually afford to approach violence with deliberation and consideration.
The reason Netanyahu is behaving like Trump or George W. Bush is because he likes the idea of rushing in with stormtroopers and crushing the enemy, not because it’s actually a good idea. And that’s why Hezbollah provoked him in the first place.
First of all, you’re either ignorant or an idiot if you think what Israel is doing is “indiscriminate”.
More importantly, what’s your superior moral alternative when a force breaches borders, murders hundreds, and takes and holds hundreds more as hostages, and then retreats to the cover of hospitals and schools in a dense city?
More importantly, what’s your superior moral alternative when a force breaches borders, murders hundreds, and takes and holds hundreds more as hostages, and then retreats to the cover of hospitals and schools in a dense city?
Let’s do a little thought experiment here. Say that everything happened exactly as before except this time they retreated and hid inside Israeli hospitals and schools, on the Israeli side of the border, full of Israeli citizens. Do you think Israel would attack those terrorists in the same way?
Probably not, because those would be THEIR hospitals. There would be no tunnel system, no munitions stores, etc etc.
Your “gotcha” thought experiment is asking whether or not a country should treat the enemy country with equal caution to their own. Did you even consider it before asking it?
Does that force come from a people who’ve been deprived of everything, forced into a system of apartheid, robbed of their freedom and routinely bullied, tortured and killed for half a century?
That seems to be an important factor to just leave out of the equation.
“Pick up the gun…” - Bill Hicks
No. Obviously? And it’s irrelevant. There’s no symmetry here.
If Hamas puts down their guns there would be peace.
If Israel puts down there guns there would be no Israel.
Only a Hasbara clown or a complete idiot would utter such stupidity, congrats.
Do people think Hamas wouldn’t hide in a hospital? Theyve proved many times civilians aren’t a concern
Do people think that there can’t be two bad guys in a story? This isn’t a good vs evil fight.
“Good guys” are a myth invented by Hollywood to sell action figures
Do people think that there can’t be two bad guys in a story?
You’re not going to like the answer…
It truly is a wonder some can’t think that far
This is a war between two terrorist organizations, one of them is funded by the United States.
We are funding terrorism. Your tax dollars are going to infant murder.
Same as it ever was
So, that justifies killing civilians?
no, that justifies invading a hospital
Tbf you’d have to invade the hospital to clear out the Hamas fighters using it as a base, especially if they were forcing it on the hospital staff
That or lay siege to it but uh… that’d be about as effective as issuing another round of sanctions on Iran at this point.
Ok, think it though. What happens when you bomb and invade a hospital filled with civilians?
you think it through. what is the alternative?
You edited your previous comment. That’s just bad form
are you seeing things again?
Prove that you didn’t edit your comment
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To not kill babies and people in hospital care. Innocent life is never worth the victory, no matter what the propganda has told you.
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When you have time to get off your unicorn and enter the mortal realm where the rest of us live, please present to us a plan to solve this conflict that results in 0 dead kids. We are waiting, as is your Nobel peace prize.
“We cannot guarantee children will not die so any suggestion we take actions to avoid it as much as possible are entirely unrealistic.”
Sure just tell the civilian dressed militants to not shoot from civilian populated areas.
You think those babies were getting the medical help they needed? All the fuel and supplies being redirected to Hamas fighters and their control of the building making normal work impossible was killing kids - I bet they’re much better off with it run by idf than Hamas.
I think Hamas is hiding inside your house. What, do people think Hamas wouldn’t hide inside your house?
Do you consider that a good rebuttal. Truly a childish mind. Of course you can’t comprehend complex situations
Hamas and Hezbollah are not the public of Palestine. So it raises the question if anybody cares. Netanyahu has made it clear to the rest of us he does not.
They look just like the public and fighting from where the public lives. What is Israel to do? Just accept getting massacred.
Does getting massacred justify massacring tenfold? I’m pretty sure the United States emmisaries had this very conversation with the state of Israel.
The thing is, Hamas and Hesbollah see provoking Israel to disproportionate reprisal as a worthwhile gambit. They know Netanyahu is glad to enact genocide justified by retaliation to terror. But now the world will get to watch the horrors of war under Israeli jackboots. And it will be ugly, and the world may have opinions about the Israeli state doing ugly things. The general opinion from the international community is changing. Along with the US’ unconditional support of a regional bully.
There are better ways. But Israeli state has rejected all alternatives, and is glad to throw stormtroopers into the mix.
And yes, the people of Israel, by a significant majority don’t want an overkill response. They want a path towards peace. But the far right does like us vs. them dynamics to consolidate power. It’s the same playbook Trump uses.
I’m not an expert. I don’t know how to fix this, but the experts were shown the door, so here we are. 👀
Well that’s war when you have superior firepower you’re gonna get more kills.
When Israel massacres civilians and massacres disproportionately, it then loses the peace. It also reveals its administration is too immature to deserve international support. The indiscriminate brutality of the IDF will reflect both on the the legitimacy of Israel and its allies, hence the conditions now added to US materiel support.
I’m very glad you don’t have any responsibility in this or any state affair.
ok but if they’re hiding in a hospital you dont need to bomb it? or do anything to it? hiding is not hurting anyone.
hiding is not hurting anyone.
The assholes in the hospital are still shooting at the assholes outside the hospital. Though I still agree the assholes outside shouldn’t be bombing it just to get at the assholes inside.
we saw this in Bosnia and Rwanda, too. This is similar to Bosnia/Serbia/Yugoslavia in a lot of way (especially the siege of Saraievo).
For conflicts like this leadership that is planning attacks or otherwise leading forces that are doing attacking, simply existing anywhere outside a prison cell is threatening. Hamas leadership knows that, they’re the ones putting hostpitals at risk by being there.
right, but my point is, however inconvenient it is, we always have a choice not to bomb hospitals. People take human shields, you don’t have to shoot through the human shields.
Do I have all the answers? No, but people go to school for war. Surely this has come up before at some point in the last 20,000 years?
You certainly should do your best to not shoot through human shields, agreed. But can it still sometimes be better to shoot through human shields if that’s what it takes to get very dangerous people vs letting them escape and threaten again later? I don’t know, it’s a hard question.
Depends. Are they artillery spotters. Are they leadership trying to claim to be in a safe you can’t tag me zone. Did they just momentarily hide their guns too. Ya gotta secure that shit one way or another otherwise you’ll get another massacre.
There are no good answers
Is that really what we’re debating? We all know it isn’t.
What’s important is can they get away with it before losing the support of those propping them up.
When the US and their buddies bombed the fuck out of Iraq and Afghanistan, and we all gathered around to watch the display of “shock and awe” did we bother to find out what they were bombing? Or did we just just go “take that, Taliban and Al-Qaida”?
Anything Israel are doing has been done before by their allies. They know it’s shady as fuck, but also know they got away with it too.
When the war on Iraq and Afghanistan started, I stood with my children, one in a stroller outside of Dick Cheney 's house in silent protest. During the Vietnam war I made several trips to Washington DC to protest the war. There is no upside to war. What we can do today, is call, email your senator and congressman that you want the killing to stop, you want the USA to stop funding this genocide. Call every day, it only takes a few minutes and if everyone did that, we would have an impact.
We did actually. With embedded reporters and human rights activists keeping an eye on things to make sure. There aren’t a ton of headlines about the US bombing hospitals because we avoided doing that. Shocking, I know.
When the US and their buddies bombed the fuck out of Iraq and Afghanistan, and we all gathered around to watch the display of “shock and awe” did we bother to find out what they were bombing? Or did we just just go “take that, Taliban and Al-Qaida”?
I was a teenager when that happened and didn’t give a fuck about what’s going on in the world, honestly. I didn’t particularly care for 9/11 either tho, so there’s that.
So, what’re the chances you’ve got nothing to say about the cache of weapons & explosives they found under the hospital along with the fact that it was indeed a Hamas outpost?
???
After all you’re educated enough on the subject that you’re aware it’d been suspected as a Hamas outpost for years, yes?
???
Wonder how many people you’ve personally lied to that’ve seen through the manipulation and propaganda.
And to save you the trouble of responding, fake news, planted goods, paid actors - pick one and go fuck myself. Got it.
oh, i’m sure it can go lower. just give it time
So what have the israelis actually found??
What I saw was a handful of weapons and a laptop. Not some headquarters
Very unconvinced so far. But the fog of war and disinformation is in full swing
They release proof of the hostages being taken there directly after the attack.
It looks as if Hamas sensed the attack coming and pulled out before the IDF arrived
All the doctors there claiming there never was any Hamas there are kind of full of shit - if people with a meat cleaver walking the hallways having people with bags on their heads in tow is normal there I’m not sure what to think anymore…
It would be completely normal to take injured hostages/prisoners to a hospital, and keep them under guard. In fact it’s the required action in international law.
So no the presence of a couple bodies in the morgue and a few guys with AKs doesn’t prove shit.
You literally chose the most biased source to get your information from and are surprised when all they find are “a handful of weapons and a laptop.”
Yeah bud, they found a lot more then that, and no the people who committed the biggest Jewish genocide since the holocaust PROBABY weren’t thinking of required action in international law
You are 100% the type of intellectual to think that silence or eventual banal agreement toward you is genuine and not a placation to avoid someone who never learned how to be wrong.
Did you really just compare 1400 deaths to the Holocaust? What about the 10,000 Gazans? Are they not human enough for you?
And, no. Even CNN is running articles saying there needs to be more evidence.
Since launching its operation at the hospital on November 15, the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) have shown images of a tunnel shaft and military equipment, but have yet to show conclusive proof of the large-scale command and control center it alleges is there.
-CNN
Senior U.S. officials said Friday that they remained confident that Hamas and Palestinian militants had been operating under the complex of Al-Shifa Hospital in Gaza City, even as the Israeli military has struggled to produce proof to back its assertion that Hamas was using the hospital and its patients as human shields.
-New York Times
And I just went to go find those. I’ve been looking directly at the videos Israel released. Which are ridiculous on their face.
Yeah I did because it was the truth, and there’s no need to resort to whataboutism on the Israel/palastiniane crisis of all things. Yes I think 10,000 gazan deaths is awful, to try to just compare the situation based on numbers alone is just another manipulation, that would really only work on children. So you’re essentially a bully who tells himself it’s for a good cause.
That type of wording is incredibly common with publications trying to keep a poise of neutrality, as it is true that more evidence would clarify the situation. They aren’t denying the proof, they’re simply saying more will be needed, as any neutral publication would. Here’s a much more relavant snippet,
“The White House has backed Israel’s claims, saying that Hamas was storing weapons and operating a command node from Al-Shifa, citing US intelligence.”
My bias is trusting telescopes about 100x the strength of hubble pointed back at the earth’s surface. I think it’s a pretty fair bias but I guess we’ll see, I doubt this is a repeat of" guaranteed nuclear weapons" but obviously there’s potential.
Everyone is awful in the I/P crisis, an objective observer with the full backgroun will always, always side with Israel. The plight of the modern palastinian child is literally the only objectionable part of this and Hamas will continue to use this until they are replaced with another religious dictatorship.
Because with friends like you, eternally echoing the idea of their complete innocence, there’s about a 0% chance palestine is getting any less fueled by holy war anytime soon.
So the Palestinians are just numbers to you. Great. Thanks for the confirmation.
The last time the world took the White House’s word on intelligence without seeing the proof, we ended up with a 20 year hangover. You don’t get to handwave war crimes. You either have the evidence or you don’t. And before you say they need time to explore the tunnels, this is what robots are for. They even give a convenient video feed and if they get blown up then oh well, it was a robot. The entire assertion that they need time for soldier safety is bullshit.
Objective observers don’t accept war crimes without immediate mitigating evidence. Make believe graphics and maintenance tunnel hatches aren’t it. Neither is common middle eastern security guard equipment.
Also, you’ll notice I’ve never said Hamas was innocent. But only one side in this war is actively committing genocide.
It’s sort of getting debated because it was used as the place where hostages where kept and where Hamas militia were operating from. But I guess that wasn’t significant enough to raise eyebrows.
You think it’s the bottom now? Just wait 72 hours…
Aids, bombs and petrol. Nah I actually hope it doesn’t go there but I can totally see people choosing to be assholes while having the time of their lives. Absolutely not cool but hey man if earth was a television channel for the aliens, ahem, we’d probably be pretty far out in the shit sticks
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No credible evidence has been presented to show that was the case.
Oh look… a white supremacist has shown up!
Dude at that point it’s comically dumb. You don’t have to be a white supremacist to have an opinion on Middle East. You just make yourself look like a fool
Riiiight… it’s not like we already know that white supremacists are the ones swallowing the propaganda their precious white supremacist settler-colonial state feeds them hook, line and sinker, right?
You should takes some pills, at least see a doctor
So you manage to be a fan of genocidal white supremacist settler-colonialism without medication?
That’s quite brave for your ilk… we all know how you love your post-crime excuses.
… sure buddy
Is it physically impossible for terrorists to hide in a hospital? Or are you just a Hamas cheerleader?
Oh, look… more white supremacists have shown up to cover for their poor little white supremacist buddy!
You sound like a white supremacist. White supremacists normally hate Jews.
Hamas is just as bad as Israel. If Hamas had the upper hand they would be bombing the shit out of Israeli hospitals.
I don’t know how anyone could cheer for either of them. The only people I support are the innocent civilians in both places. Both regimes and their supporters need to fuck off into a thunderdome and kill each other off somewhere far away from the rest of civilization.
White supremacists normally hate Jews.
Yes, they do… and so does the Jewish white supremacists running Israel. After all… that is what a kapo truly is - a person trying to prove their “whiteness” by doing the bidding of white supremacists. Just like Israel is doing, isn’t it?
Hamas is just as bad as Israel.
Hamas is not a white supremacist settler-colonialist state, Clyde. Israel is - has been since 1949.
Why do you call people “Clyde”? Is that a reference to something?
The mods here on lemmy gets really upset when we call white supremacists white supremacists. So I call them something they can’t get upset about.
You know that most Israelis --like close to 60 percent-- are Mizrahi Jews, right? This means they are from the Middle East and have far more in common with Arabs in terms of ethnicity than they do with Europeans. To most American eyes they basically look Arab. And that’s only one reason why your white supremacy garbage doesn’t hold up.
You know that most Israelis gibber, gibber, blah, blah,blah
Who populates the upper echelons of the Israeli political and economic establishments, Clyde? Mizrahi Jewish folk? Or is it maybe a more… “westernized” and “whiter” group who happened to learn their white supremacism back in good ole’ Europe?
And that’s only one reason why your white supremacy garbage doesn’t hold up.
Bring your receipts, Clyde - let’s go. You don’t want to let your favorite white supremacist settler-colonialist state down, now would you?
Arabs are white, dumbass.
So they’re a white supremacist for holding whites above whites?
French police disagrees with you, smartass
Leaving the validity of racial classifications aside, if Arabs are “white,” then how is Zionism a “white supremacist” project in the first place?
You people need to get your talking points in order.
