Looks like a totally reasonable response.
/s
Targetted attacks hitting terrorist hideouts!
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Have a look at pictures of Berlin after WW2 sometime.
Civilians are the first and last to suffer in war. That does not mean a war is not justified or necessary.
The Geneva Convention was a direct result of the horrors of WWII.
Yes, and one of the things it deems a war crime is collective punishment.
Yep. I guess it doesn’t count if you don’t recognise a nation as a country though, right? 🫤
Israel’s response has already killed thousands of innocent people. Why is it necessary? Is a mass bombing of residential areas the only response to an attack? In the first night of bombing they leveled entire villages in Palestine. Whole families were killed, who had no connection to Hamas or any militant group.
It is necessary to destroy Hamas, Hamas made it necessary.
It’s not only unnecessary, but won’t even work to destroy Hamas. A supporter of Hamas could just as easily say that the brutality of their attack was necessary to destroy the Zionist government of Israel.
Look how well that worked out in Ireland
A fraction of what the US did to Iraq after 9/11.
Proportional response to terrorism seems to only be called for when it’s Jews being slaughtered.
Hamas hides under ground. This is just clearing the way, once the ground forces move in, they’ll clear the rest.
Both things can be wrong at the same time.
I’ve literally never heard anyone justifying the US reaction to 9/11 before. Do you really believe that was an appropriate response?
Going to the wrong country and blowing it apart when Afghanistan and Pakistan were the culprits?
YES
Now no, but back when it was current there was a lot.
It caused the biggest protest march in history in the UK. I thought it was the same in the US.
I felt like I was going crazy here in the US, as the media was beating the drums of war hard and dipshits were all over the place with huge American flags flying on their trucks. There may have been some protests, but I remember just about everyone feeling it was justified. It was bizarre.
There were big protests in DC. I’m fairly apolitical but I was out there with a sign and everything.
Even standing there with all those people, though, I remember thinking “this will make no difference in the end.”
Americans are a bit weird with their enthusiasm for all things military.
I mean, that IS where a good chunk of their propoganda is targeted towards achieving
The media called it the war on terror for a while. And people were for the most part very patriotic. I don’t think there was a ton of resistance to it here.
Yeah, I said a lot justified it, that doesn’t mean there weren’t sane people wondering why the fuck we were in Iraq even though it was terrorists from Afghanistan (And Saudi Arabia) that attacked the US.
There wasn’t a single Afghani on any of those planes
The orders for 9/11 were given from Al Qaeda which just happened to be based in Afghanistan. The US went after the leadership of Al Qaeda (eventually), thus Afghanistan. It wasn’t a war against the Afghanis, it was a war against Al Qaeda.
Over 300 children were killed by Israeli bombings in the first night in response to the attack. You are telling me that is a justified reaction?
Not at all. Hopefully the world will wake up soon. They were their first. Israel is using religion as their right to be there, and cherry-picking versus out of the Bible to back up their cause. These are human beings, not terrorists.
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This is just clearing the way,
That’s a pretty brutal thing to say.
I don’t know if I would call 20% a fraction, but you are right to say the total number of bombs dropped in Iraq by the US and UK was higher. I think it’s good to remember that the 30,000ish dropped in Iraq was over 8 years. Israel have reportedly used more than 6000 in less than a week.
Please seriously think on what you’re saying about your fellow human beings here.
Holly shit! If this is true and it’s only been 3ish days…that’s truly horrifying.
Its like that for more than 20years now.
Even israel it self and other countries under Israel aggrement , finance the Hamas for years now, to rebuild again and again…
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Well spoken.
I’m pro-civilian. Fuck Hamas and fuck the IDF and the whole Israeli military complex.
I haven’t formed an opinion for one side or the other, at this point, but I think tentatively that this isn’t as black and white as everyone is trying to make it out, pro Palestine or Israel or not.
it actually is pretty black and white. israel is a colonial settler apartheid state who has oppressed the palestinians for the better half of a century. nobody gave a shit about the last 20 years where thousands of palestinians have been killed by israel. every 1 israeli that dies, 10-20x palestinians die depending on the year.
they have separate court systems with harsher punishments if you’re palestinian. they kick people out of homes and move in settlers (what we would call ethnic cleansing if China or Russia were doing it)
they have blockaded gaza for the last 16 years and created an open air prison. hamas was not created in a vacuum. now they have the perfect opportunity to accelerate the goal of ethnically cleansing gaza. US and Israel are desperately trying to get Egypt to accept the refugees. call it a humanitarian corridor.
but if Palestinians leave, they are never coming back. and israel will no longer have to worry about those pesky indigenous arabs and their cries for justice
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i understand where you’re coming from but there are indisputable facts. there are objective statements of truth that can be made and even someone who is not informed on the region’s history can make conclusions from those facts.
fact a - israel has been occupying the following areas since 1964 in violation of international law
- the west bank
- golan heights (occupation ended in 1981, when israel annexed the land)
- gaza strip (occupation ended in 2005, which is when the blockade began)
- east jerusalem (formally annexed in 1980)
Those are statements of fact. No spin. Those 4 areas are held against international law.
fact b - Israel has been blockading Gaza since 2005. They enacted an absolute blockade a couple of days ago. The previous blockade was meant to
- restrict the movement of palestinians in and out to a couple of checkpoints. this amounted to a few thousand palestinians per month being able to enter or exit in a place with a population close to 2 million. in order to leave they needed to apply for a specific identification card and have a valid reason to leave.
- totally restrict any form of air travel of any palestinian airline
- restrict the movement of goods in and out of the territories :
-
“The World Bank estimated in 2015 that the GDP losses caused by the blockade since 2007 was above 50%, and entailed large welfare losses. Gaza’s manufacturing sector, once significant, shrunk by as much as 60% in real terms”
The current blockade is even harsher, not letting anything in or out - including humanitarian organizations or food or water. What was once already broadly recognized as harsh is amplified
fact c - israel has two different judicial systems in the west bank. one for Palestinians and another for jews - and palestinians regularly recieve dramatically harsher sentences for the same crimes as their jewish counterparts. you can read more about it here.
this is effectively two different court systems depending on your race. this is apartheid.
fact d - israel has been killing palestinians at near daily frequency for decades. here’s an infographic with data from the United Nations
For every 1 Israeli killed, an average of about 20 Palestinians are killed. Many of these killed are unarmed civilians, children, and teenagers. Even if you took all the Jews killed by Hamas in the last week, the ratio is still dramatically tilted towards Palestinians being killed at a much higher rate.
depending on where you get the statistics, figures differ. palestinian sources claim much higher # of dead palestinians. however, we can reasonably conclude that many palestinians have been killed by israel in the last few decades.
fact e - Israel kicks palestinians out of their homes and establishes colonies in the lands previously held by palestinians. read more here. the united nations has stated that these settlements are illegal and against international law.
"An estimated 430,000 Israeli Jews now live in 132 officially recognized “settlements” and in 121 unofficial “outposts” that require, but haven’t yet received, government approval. Constituting about 15% of the West Bank’s total population, these “settlers” live in their own communities, separate from the area’s approximately 3 million Palestinian residents. "
if you want, i can give you more nuance on the geopolitical situation. why this is happening now. what are the implications. what israel wants, what palestine wants, etc. but those facts above are not up for dispute.
i have my own personal opinions. but they are not because i simply read palestinian propaganda like you imply. the truth does not change depending on who says it. the truth is the truth
I think it was Egypt who indefinitely closed the border some days ago. But to be fair, the reason for that was that the IDF was shelling the Rafah border after telling Palestineans to flee through that corridor.
Egypt closed the single crossings into Egypt, yeah. Although there are other crossings into Israel. Egypt also wants to put humanitarian aid into Gaza but Israel refuses to allow it, saying they will bomb any such shipments of aid.
Having said that, I think the reason the Egyptians are refusing refugees is more complicated than just the shelling from Israel. That was a good justification, but consider Egypt’s position.
a) they are going through an economic crisis and a potential 1+ million refugees will not be easy to accommodate
b) there is an active militancy in sinai right now, presumably where a majority of the refugees would end up, and the radicalization experienced by many of these will certainly feed into the current problem
c) let’s say they accept a large chunk of gazans. where’s the guarantee that they are going back? This operation by Israel could take months and totally destroy the cities in Gaza. Even if the Palestinians wanted to go back at the end of this, who is to say the Israelis would let them? The Israelis would have gotten rid of a large number of problematic people. Less Palestinians = less problems. They would have very little incentive, besides international pressure, to accept these people back
How will history and the rest of the Arab world remember the Egyptians? As a provider of aid in a trying time? Or as a facilitator of ethnic cleansing?
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it’s one sided because the power dynamics are one sided. israel is totally dominant. they own the palestinians. we are talking about a population that is totally at the mercy of a country actively hostile to them. when you subjugate a group of people, take away their economic potential and freedom of movement, and then you regularly kill them in brutal fashion over the course of decades…
why is an isreali life worth any more than a palestinian?
nothing justifies the taking of innocent life. what hamas did was a terror attack. but i believe in treating the disease and not the symptom. israel caused this with their long term brutality.
already at this point israel has already equalized the number of dead civilians and it doesn’t look like they’re slowing down anytime soon. how many gazans need to die before this is through?
Almost sounds like Zion in the matrix. The machines kept destroying it but needed human life to sustain the matrix, so they would rebuild it each time.
I couldn’t find a source for Israel financing Hamas. Please could you provide one?
I think you are mixing up different groups there. I just did a websearch as I couldn’t believe your claim Israel was funding Hamas and indeed this seems wrong. They are seen as terrorists by the West and get support from other terrorist groups and Iran. From an independent.co.uk article:
Hamas is considered a terrorist organisation by the United Kingdom, the European Union, Egypt, United States, Canada and Japan. However it has long been provided with funding and weapons by Iran, and has the support of Lebanese militant group Hezbollah, which on Sunday exchanged rocket and artillery fire with Israel amid fears the conflict could spread.
https://www.dw.com/en/who-is-hamas/a-57537872
I said Israel and others. Do you think Qatar could help them to build infrastructures, schools or hospitals without the agreement ? Gaza is under a blocks for Years now…
And Israel does help build schools and hospital too, their politics said it.
Yeah if you know hamas just for the weapons then you know nothing of the region and its story and u just discovered this war theses last days.
True
But you are mixing up Hamas and Palestinians now. A lot of countries provide financial aid, food aid, help build schools and hospitals for Palestinians - including Israel. But Palestinians and Hamas is not the same, Hamas is a terrorist organisations, Palestinians are just the people living there.
help build schools and hospitals for Palestinians - including Israel
I tried to verify this, and found dozens of articles like this:
You call that an life ?
Hamas is an unwelcome answers to the terror when the political road for peace is close. U do peace with ennemys not your friends.
See the problem with this, and I’m seeing this shit everywhere I look now, is that people are conflating Hamas and Palestine. When you say helping Palestinian Children is funding Hamas, you are basically calling for a racial cleansing, and you should feel ashamed as the worst kind of human being.
Lol its literraly Hamas who bas the fund and organise the building. There is an différence between an pur terrorist organization and an organization answering to the terror with terror.
Hamas, the political organization, is also Hamas the terrorist organization. They are the legitimate government of the Palestinian people, but they use terrorist tactics too.
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It’s not “western approved” any more than “Hamas” equals “the entire Gaza population” or “Bibi’s nutcases” equals “Israelis”. But my government doesn’t give a shit about my opinion om the matter, unfortunately. And there are apparently precious few politicians who are avle and willing to recognise the atrocities of both sides.
I do think the Israeli govt. is haemorrhaging support right now. It has cultivated generations who are not ok with the crazy funding it receives from the global west. The Israeli govt. setup of huge aid receipts is on a timer.
Biden just announced another funding for Israel
Everything comes down to Florida. Always does.
The statement was focused on the idea that what a government does is not inherently supported or approved by its citizens in all cases. Often the citizens have no control over the actions a govt takes especially with aid or combat.
Just because Biden and his admin are approving aid doesn’t mean the West and it’s inhabitants approve.
Wilford Brimley?
The israeli state had better make the most of it while they can. I’m sure they will. The tap will be turned off soon.
The tap will be turned off soon
are you delusional? the tap has been on for decades what makes you think it will be turned off soon? they’re only going to increase funding to israel
and god forbid the war escalates to lebanon and beyond, the amount of money will dwarf the ukrainian war
it’s the ukrainian tap that’s about to get turned off. israel is new priority, ukraine about to get tossed to the side. russia already making gains this week
I fully agree re. Russia and Ukraine, bad times ahead for Ukraine. Patience was wearing thin and aid to Israel is a pretty watertight excuse for shrugging off Ukraine right now.
I’m not delusional though, and you don’t need to jump to such ad hominem attacks with someone arguing with you politely and in good faith.
I stand by my comments about US and other funding for Israel being on the timer, but perhaps “soon” is ungrounded. I can point to a groundswell in anger and revulsion among younger generations (who already bridled at their arguments against Israeli state support being dismissed as anti-semitic) as the Israeli state is showing how exactly they will employ all the weapons and armaments sent their way for so long.
Hamas has few friends in the west, and is not set to make many at the moment, but the plight of the people in Gaza, both historical and current, is getting passed around in gory gifs right now. Hearts and minds will, at some point, translate to votes, which will manifest in policy change.
Of course, by the time it does, Bibi+cronies will probably have exiled/killed the entire civilian and armed population of Gaza, so the point may well be moot, I fear
i apologize for the delusional comment. it just seemed to me like a crazy thing to say, but you’re right there’s no need for that type of attitude
i understand where you’re coming from. many videos have already been shared of palestinian civilians getting blown up for no good reason other than being inconvenient for israel
however, i think it is a bit naive to believe this will change anything. believe me, i don’t say this to try and insult you. i think if majority of people thought like you did we probably wouldn’t be in this mess to begin with. but the world runs on a simple philosophy - might makes right.
israel has been abusing these people for nearly half a century. they’ve been killing and bombing them with impunity and the US and friends have been sending billions of dollars to Israel in order to help this process. they will not stop until the ethnic cleansing is complete and the US will support them all of the way there.
just look at the response in europe right now. both germany and france have banned pro-palestinian protests. fairly soon i expect to see social media start to become censored. reddit already started removing certain videos
No reason to shut off aid to Ukraine. We can operate in multiple theaters at once. That’s the point of outspending the next 12 countries on our military. If anything, this makes it easier as the Dems will bundle Israeli and Ukrainian aid, and the Republicans just flipped back to hawks.
there’s only so much industrial capacity we have available. bullets and bombs don’t just materialize out of thin air, no matter how much money you throw at it. triage will be performed and ukraine is not a priority any longer. israel is key to american strategy in the middle east. ukraine is an afterthought, only supported because it was a cheap way to harm russia.
Hamas doesn’t equal the entire Gaza population the majority is younger than 14
This conflict has been going on for decades. Palestinians have been pushed out of their land for decades. Many were able to immigrate elsewhere, but by separating the population from each other and it’s original land, this can slowly erase their ethnicity.
And America has given them hundreds of billions of dollars over the last few decades to keep doing this.
I’d say that’s Western approved ethnic cleansing
Making a guess here… Hamas has been democratically elected since… 2006?.. assume cognitive memory and tribal biases really start becoming rigid around 7 years old… anyone under 24 has only known the message of hamas’ government and lived under the gaslighting. I’d assume the youth are pretty onboard, no?
Hamas was democratically elected once with 45% of the vote, then stopped holding elections.
A lot of olive trees grow in Palestine. The symbol of peace originated from the culture of Palestinians. Meanwhile, Israelis burn olive farmers’ trees in land they continue to steal today (but we don’t call it stealing, we call it “settling”)
So, given that a majority of Palestinians didn’t vote for Hamas, and the origins of the culture are rooted in peace anyways, I don’t think it’s fair to suggest most of those minors are on board with Hamas. Not to suggest many aren’t radicalized, but I’m honestly surprised more than 45% wouldn’t vote for Hamas considering how many generations of people are living in an open air prison.
Israel is shutting off all power, food, medicine, water, and bombing a city about the population of Los Angeles, but 4x denser, and mostly minors. This operation will take months if not years. This is an insane war crime at a scale we haven’t seen since world war 2
Okay. That was a generation ago. My point was that it’s all the people have known. If you’re saying they’ve only consolidated power since, you’re validating my point.
And none of the other responses have to do with my comment.
Also fwiw it’s neither Palestinian nor Greek. It’s from the story of Noah. The bird brought back an olive branch having found land, and it became the symbol of the end of the conflict, peace.
A lot of olive trees grow in Palestine. The symbol of peace originated from the culture of Palestinians.
Owch, now that’s bullshit. First, when this particular symbol came into use, there was no such thing as Palestinians, the whole area was Jewish, Phoenician etc. Second, it’s Greek.
I’ve said many times what I think of Israelis, but that’s genocidal (as in whitewashing) rhetoric right here.
Look it up, you don’t have to take my word for it
Edit: also, you’re just going to ignore the part of Israel committing one of the worst war crimes of the century?
Look it up, you don’t have to take my word for it
There’s nothing but your word (or anything just as credible) for it.
Edit: also, you’re just going to ignore the part of Israel committing one of the worst war crimes of the century?
Yeah, since that’s not what I’m answering to.
Israel has the unwavering support of the United States, it may not have unanimous approval, but that is de facto western support.
From our government. Not our people. Most people can tell both sides to grow the fuck up and stop acting like 4 year olds in a pissing contest that costs people lives. I hate that our government making decisions makes all of us ok with it. We aren’t.
Yes, I meant the government
The US =/= “The West”. Just because you can’t be bothered to distinguish the 2 doesn’t mean they’re actually the same
America is the West when it comes to military support
The opposite in fact. The diaspora has been very angry with Bibi for years and that’s led to external pressure that’s caused him problems at home, even though he’s been able to withstand.
He just had his George Bush 9/11 moment, the country and the Diaspora are fully supportive of Israel right now.
The promise of safety has been shattered. However much I hate Bibi and believe he needs to be in jail, he full well understands what needs to happen to restore the feeling of safety to the people who are feeling very violated right now. It’s going to be ferocious.
Netanyahu needs to be tried for war crimes.
I think that even though Hamas are trying to “destroy Israel” they’re really hurting Palestine way more in an indirect way, and this is why I hate them.
No offense to either country though.
My first thought after the initial visceral reaction was “we really need to get Hamas out of there”
Moderate/secular palestinians everywhere. My first reaction to Hamas’ attacks was a comprehensive list of every ableist slur i know.
BUT: We’d do well to remember that Netanyahu and his coalition are the people that try to conflate Hamas with palestinian liberation. I hope it will cost them their power.
Nah it’s direct, Hamas can only get recruits by getting more Palestinians to hate israel
Launch a massive terrorist attack, provoke an even bigger terrorist response out of vengeance bloodthirst, voilà, instant recruitment drive just add war crimes
Hamas is the equal partner and willing collaborator to Netenyahu’s genocide of the Palestinian people.
Damn.
So they were not really hurt before?
They’ve definitely been hurt before, but this time is definitely the cruelest in decades.
Hamas cares about their own power. Not Palestinians.
I knew they had to be exploiting. But I guess I can blame the Israeli gov for that as well.
Yes actually, Netanyahu has been known to support Hamas and suppress liberal democratic parties. It’s not even a secret.
I have a loss of words right now.
Good god centrists should just never open their mouths. Should they just allow Israel to finish the genocide quietly? Would that be better for you?
You’re an absolute idiot if you think Hamas is anything more than a religious terrorism group. They do not and have never cared about the Palestinians at all beyond a recruitment pool.
Also ignoring the fact that massacreing innocent civilians, many of whom were actively pro Palestine, and raping any woman they find before killing them, is even remotely justified. It’s not justified when Israel does it, and it’s still not justified when Hamas does it back.
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I mean it’s not like a bunch of Palestinians woke up one day and went “we should form a terrorist organization and kill a bunch of random people for no reason”. There’s been a long path to get here.
Please look into how Netanyahu has tried (successfully) to conflate Hamas and palestinian liberation. He and his like have supported Hamas to undermine the PLO, a secular organization, simply because Hamas is a more convenient enemy to face.
Please don’t fall for his propaganda and attempt to force all support for Palestine to go through Hamas.
I’m not? I’m not in favor of Hamas, lol. I’m just pointing out how ignorant 90% of the comments I read sound as if no one’s ever heard of an abused dog biting back.
Y’know when I read your earlier comment my first thought was “this guy thinks of us as nothing but dogs to sacrifice to whatever cause they’re on this week”, but then you literally came right out and made the comparison yourself.
Bougeyevik Fetishizers, easier shots to call than a physics demonstration.
Whatever that all is supposed to mean, I haven’t a clue. You murder people for decades and then make surprised Pikachu face when they murder back. Just silly.
Hey look everyone it’s a fetishizer who thinks everything up to breaking into panic room vaults and dragging the actively not participating occupants out to murder them in the streets is perfectly acceptable conduct when one of us global southers does it, because moral conduct is apparently white privilege to these racist shitbags.
What’s especially egregious is that these very same acts would be condemned in the harshest words possible if israel were doing them, and I know that because they are when israel does do those things. The act is what is immoral, not the people committing it, and not doing terrible shit is not some act of virtue signaling or privilege, it’s the default state of action anyone who isn’t a fucking psychopath is capable of adhering to passively.
Well with that well informed and definitely not pulled out of your ass first sentence I’m sure to be convinced to continue reading your nuanced take on me as a person.
Centrists are the ones most likely to want peace between the two sides, instead of a most likely bloody victory of one over the other.
Nah, centrists are people that know jack shit about anything but automatically agree with whatever the most people are saying.
Most people choose to side with either Israel or with Palestine. I chose not to side with anyone because both sides are doing wrong things, and both sides have innocent people that are dying because of this.
Since Hamas came to power Gaza has one of the fastest growing populations in the world.
There is no genocide other than the one Hamas calls for against the Jews. It’s literally in their founding Charter if you care to read the document.
So because they have a fast growing population it’s ok to kill? them?? Like it’s not genocide if there are a lot of them? Think about what you’re saying. These are people, not cockroaches.
Look at these demographics (go to Gaza). As of 2018 most of the population wasn’t even 18. What do you think that does to a people?
They need guidance not bombs
Who’s saying it’s ok to kill? I’m pointing out the fact there’s not a genocide happening, no peoples are being wiped out - the numbers prove that clearly.
They need guidance not bombs. For years Hamas has used aid to build bombs. To the point where the UN has limited funding to the territory. I’m positive that once Hamas has been destroyed, they will receive the guidance they need and deserve. Until then, just more bombs.
Yes it is an offense teaching suffering palestinians from your 1st world sofa.
I’m from a third world country that has internet slower than 3G at times. And we don’t even have sofas where I’m from.
Also, despite the neutrality of our government about this issue, most people are protesting in solidarity with Palestine.
I gave you enough clues. I’m Moroccan.
touche.
I sit on a 1st world sofa, but I try not to teach people on what to do when being bombed.
In the basque country the nazi army was invited by the dictator to peacefully bomb Gernika. Franco’s next in charge had to go. We had the resources to do it, but Palestine or Hamas don’t have the military capability to depose that zionist gvt.
So they do what they can.
it is an offense teaching suffering … from your 1st world sofa.
I sit on a 1st world sofa, but I try not to teach people on what to do when being bombed.
proceeds to try to teach about suffering and what should be allowed to be done from a 1st world sofa
So in other words, a hypocrite by your own account.
Hamas is a terrorist group. Stop defending terrorists. You can argue for Palestinian rights without defending terrorists and terrorist acts. Fighting against an oppressor is not the same as killing civilians at a music festival.
Its really scary how many people dont get this. What Isreal is doing is fucking terrible, but what happened at the music festival and surrounding area was also atrocious. Its mindblowing that so many people not immediately affected by those events cant see that BOTH things are awful, those immediately impacted, completely understandable that they cant and wont see nuance, the rest of the world? Yeesh
It’s that kind of BBC-style cpt-ovbious argumentation that makes Gaza conflict endless.
At least I handle it straight, although I admit not knowing how to solve it.
Hans are we the baddies?
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Isreal didn’t need to kill and destroy civilian lives for retribution.
As Sherman, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki have shown: War is hell.
Okay but that was a six year war against a comparable nation, at the time the Empire had colonized Korea and half of China so it was pretty sizeable. I think a lot of people have and will continue to argue that the nuclear bombs saved more lives than they ended.
Palestine on the other hand is a small part of the much larger Israel which is completely walled off and resource dependent on Israel including power and water which has been cut for almost a week. Israel have literally not even attempted a Ground Assault and spent the last 5 days doing nothing but Aerial Bombardment. They’re not digging trenches to hold back Hamas in even the wildest of imaginations, they’re just pressing buttons to annihilate massive complexes. Is one jew worth ten Palestinians?
I think a lot of people have and will continue to argue that the nuclear bombs saved more lives than they ended.
They traded the lives of combatants who have a reasonable expectation of bodily harm or death with civilian lives. The US traded a grueling war for war crimes. (Don’t get me wrong, Japan committed their fair share of atrocities during WW2, but that doesn’t excuse the nukes)
Japan should’ve tried winning😎
Oh, I think they tried…
The Japanese leadership didn’t surrender after the firebombing of Tokyo, they didn’t surrender after the bombs, they surrendered after the Soviets declared war. The Generals didn’t give a fuck about the population, and Operation Meetinghouse caused just as many casualties as an atomic bomb. But what they definitely wanted to avoid at all costs was a Soviet occupation.
That’s fair and about 98% true but it wasn’t just a trade for combatant’s lives since after taking the islands the war was now on the Japanese Mainland in addition to the atrocities happening in the Japanese Colonies on the Asian Mainland and the intent of the Japanese to once again attack the Americas (though incredibly unlikely at that point in the war). My point still stands that comparing the power dynamic of the Nipon Empire and USA to that of Hamas and Israel is ingenuine.
For sure though, USA leadership should have been removed and held accountable for using Nuclear weapons on a densely populated area. Maybe even executed.
Never said they needed, just that it should’ve been expected.
Why do you assume Hamas cares about any of these innocent casualties?
Hamas absolutely loves this shit. This is their wet dream.
This will give them more recruits.
All according to plan for Hamas, they grow stronger every day, because they were put there by Egypt, Saudi, and Iran to sow discord in Palestine. I bet Netanyahu is loving it, too.
Are they, though? What is Israel supposed to do when the militarized terrorists use civilians as human shields? Not respond and get slaughtered by Hamas again?
I’m seriously asking: what strategy do you suggest for Israel? All answers I can think of right now are laughable in the face of the ideology and moral state of Hamas.
guarantee safe passage of women, children, and maybe elderly to west bank at the very least. slow infantry ground war to weed out and forcibly relocate noncombatants.
they didn’t even try.
Being female or younger than 18 is no guarantee of not working for Hamas. Moving a group with a high percentage of terrorists embedded in it to infrastructure they want to target in an area with more accessible resources for weapons construction is a non-starter.
I think the best we can hope for is some distant country with the resources to keep the refugee group monitored for terrorist activity agrees to take a few hundred thousand people. Palestinians working in a Chinese state-owned manufacturing facility would be extremely problematic but maybe less bad than the alternatives.
@Duxon @adrian783 The West Bank is up next. The settlers have been displacing the locals there for years and that’s most of the soldiers were on Oct 7th.
that’s why Hamas did this. there are no good options for Israel. hamas knew that such a brutal attack would embarrass the right-wing leadership of israel and bait them into a brutal reaction
they are bombing the shit out of gaza to show their population they are doing something. but they know this bombing does very little. hamas has been preparing for this. they have a complex tunnel system underground. they’ve been stockpiling diesel, water, food, etc. the blockade is simply hurting the civilian population
hamas played israel like a fiddle. well, we’ll see. i think their goal is to expand this into a regional war. hezbollah promised they would join the war should israel launch a ground invasion. israel says it will, but i don’t know if it’s a bluff or not.
Hamas’s aim may have been to make Israel look bad from their retaliation and rally the other Middle Eastern enemies of Israel. But we don’t really know yet.
Edit: Caspian report just came out with a really great video about the complicated web of relationships that may have caused it, including torpedoing an Israel peace deal. https://youtu.be/2xjmelFwJow
It’s not working though. Israel has massive support. Gaza is in ruins. Israel have the excuse and political capital to spend to completely remove Gaza from the map. If I lived in Gaza I would be disgusted with the irresponsible and atrocious actions of Hamas.
Definitely. But information was imperfect too, maybe Hamas thought Israel’s recent political turmoil over trying to weaken the judicial branch. But still a horrible action and probably a massive blunder on Hamas’ part.
it’s possible they really did not expect to penetrate so far inside Israel.
Potentially Israel also had prior warning from Egypt.
If the Israeli Government reacts with the same level of proportion as they have done every time since the far-right took power there, not even the vastly superior Israeli Propaganda Machine will be able to offset the impact on anybody but the most tribalist Israeli supporters of the picture of mass graves and dead women and children that will come out of this, especially if the blockade of Gaza leads to mass deaths from thirst and starvation.
It actually makes a lot of sense that Hamas escalated things this much because of just how bad Israeli escalation will look if they maintain the disproportion of reaction levels that they’ve had so far.
The leaderships on both sides couldn’t care less about human life.
That’s surely it, Hamas playing 4D chess. 😂
And they had to have known this would be the outcome.
So that was part of their calculation.
They knew they would retaliate, but this is frankly disgusting.
Israel wanted this and are milking it for all it’s worth. What Israel is doing is an extremely disproportionate and exaggerated response in an attempt to continue to grab as much land as illegally as possible.
Gaza is already one of the most densely populated places on earth, and they want to cut their available land in half.
It’s insane that it’s being supported. Palestine does something and even the British send Warships to help. Israel does something far worse and the most we get is the EU saying “hmm this might not be legal”. It sucks.
Because they’re fighting terrorists. That’s why, it’s not black and white like you’re making it out to be.
A terrorist movement that they, in part, have created and continue to fuel for decades.
Terrorism can only be squashed by de-escalation, even if it takes decades. Otherwise you’re just perpetuating the cycle of violence.
My guess is that this was a catastrophic success for them. They probably planned the attack assuming significant resistance from the IDF. A few fighters would make it through the defenses. If they got lucky, they would be able to take a handful of hostages back into Gaza. Enough to score a political win and maybe earn a few concessions from the hostage negotiation, but not enough to upset the status quo.
When the IDF underperformed, Hamas was left with an attack that went too well, and now has to deal with an enemy that has decided to properly mobilize.
The fun part is you can’t win! The US proves it just like the Soviets before them, colonial Europe so on so forth.
Dude, does this look like a “hostage rescue”? They were presumed dead the moment they got abducted. Hamas can claim victory all they want, all I see is Israel grabbing even more land.
Egypt should have told Hamas that they told Israel that the attack was going to happen, and that Israel was letting it happen. Netanyahu has been dreaming of having an excuse to wipe out Hamas, and Palestine, for decades.
Egypt should be in the headlines for their fortified borders, and lack of support.
I don’t blame Egypt for not wanting to get involved directly
They’re as complicit as Iran: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt–Gaza_barrier
In 2010, Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas declared support for the barrier, adding: “It is the Egyptians’ sovereign right in their own country. Legitimate supplies should be brought through the legal crossings.”
pretty much this, it is still Egypt’s prerogative, why should they be made to open a border for a walled city when their host state doesn’t?
My answer is always, “What’s the other outcome?”
There were 100 Hamas terrorists holding hostages.
And keyboard warriors are going, “Well Israel dropped the ball!” And like, okay? So… Those hostages?
It’s a shit situation all around. Fuck-if-you-do, fuck-if-you-dont.
Israel allowed it to happen. Egypt announced that they showed Israel proof that it was going to happen, and the IDF strengthened their troop deployment in other parts of Israel. Egypt should have told Hamas that they were walking into a trap.
Genuinely? This is probably exactly what they expected. The only question is if this is what they were hoping for. Reprisals from Israel don’t drive people away from Hamas, there’s nowhere else they can go. It drives people toward them.
They’re doing everything by the book. This is exactly what they were expecting.
Who even is that, and why should I listen to them? Seems like some rando doing vids in their basement.
You don’t have to, just thought you might find it interesting.
He’s a former journalist, current political activist/humanitarian. Incredibly well-read and knowledgeable.
tbf, you’re a rando posting your opinion on it to the internet just like him, just in text format. Why should we listen to you?
With that said, everything needs to be taken with a grain of salt. You can listen, take it in, and research more if something doesn’t seem right to you.
Yes but one rando posting a video of another rando with no sources is even less credible than the singular rando just stating the opinion himself. People who believe “experts” without citations are unfortunately too common in this world.
There’s no difference between randos on the internet, everything is taken with a grain of salt and healthy suspicion. Doesn’t matter which rando it comes from.
Let me put it this way: If a man told me he was a medical doctor and another man also claimed to be a doctor and showed me a medical license written in crayons, which would I be more likely to believe?
Let me put it this way: Straw man arguments won’t work here.
edit: “A straw man fallacy (sometimes written as strawman) is the informal fallacy of refuting an argument different from the one actually under discussion, while not recognizing or acknowledging the distinction”
I’m just trying to have a discussion, not indoctrinate people to my way of thinking. Pretty sure I haven’t made a single factual claim.
A bunch of ragtag militiamen vs one of the most advanced militaries in the world. I get that they’re desperate, but this was an inevitable outcome (as terrible as it is).
This seems like you’re trying to make a factual claim. Again, I don’t disagree with it but you’re just a rando on the internet just like the dude in the video. At least he’s put his face and name to his allegations/opinions.
He definitely is, and yet he is also shockingly insightful. I haven’t watched this particular video, but I’ve watched others of his and his takes are smarter and more nuanced than I expected. That’s not an endorsement, just adding context from someone who recognized him.
He’s definitely at least a little more than a rando.
Beau is a very smart person who generally does not make a lot of mistakes with his analysis.
He has contact with a lot of good journalists and experts.
The place he is recording from is a studio that was made to look like his okd garage, where he actually started making videos from, but as the channel took off he increased the quality of the videos a lot, he also hires people to research and fact check him afaik.
Guy is kinda just really smart and good at what he does.
Holy shit, man! I thought I was looking at a drawing of a post apocalypse wasteland.
Not quite “post” yet. Still apocalypsing.
Aren’t you?
It’s very reminiscent of Gone with the Blastwave.
It looks like the future after the war with the terminators.
Don’t worry guys, they’ve finally decided it’s safe enough for a ground assault starting maybe tomorrow. /sarcasm
Horrifying.
Would you believe all those apartments were owned by Hamas terrorists? Jolly convenient if you ask me.
Closer to genocide picture than combat footage.
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Lol they haven’t held elections since 2006
Additionally 50% of the Gaza strip wouldn’t even be able to vote… You know, because they are under 18
I think they were talking about Israel
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There’s something to be said about how this applies to almost every side in this conflict.
The problem is people are given little power, a vote every couple of years, and even when a significant number of people don’t vote for the winning party, everyone in the country as a whole is slapped all of the responsibility by the international community and those in power aren’t interested in representing anyone but themselves. Everyone criticizes like this, regardless of how much nuance they demand people take into consideration when it involves their own country.
Hamas doesn’t have elections. So fsck you.
Flood it and make it a coral reef… that way no one gets what they want cept me and the fishes
