- cross-posted to:
- europe@lemmygrad.ml
- europe@lemmy.ml
- cross-posted to:
- europe@lemmygrad.ml
- europe@lemmy.ml
cross-posted from: https://lemmy.ml/post/27232360
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I’m a millennial who was happy to not be required to go through military training back when it was still a thing but already phasing out. Bundeswehr was a thing for gun fanatics and manly men, nothing that was actually necessary. I was a pacifist. My work ethics today are now close to what Gen Z apparently has. Work is simply not the center of my life anymore.
These days I’m wondering if a 40 year old man (in better shape than my 18 year old self though) can still enlist voluntarily because I want to fight for our European values. I’d rather die in battle than being occupied by power hungry dictators. Not sure this Gen Z guy understands that his work life balance days are over if that happens.
This article I read some hours ago is relevant.
Very interesting, thank you!
You’re absolutely not too old to join the Bundeswehr. Depending on your life situation you could opt to do a FWD (voluntary military service) for at least 7 months or be trained as untrained civilian in the “Ungedient” programme in distinct blocks to not impact your day to day life so much. I would advise to contact your local recruitment office and talk to them, you can get their guidance on your individual situation without signing any commitments.
Thanks for the info!
My problem with that is that I will be fighting for those old fucks sitting in the seats of power making decisions about our lives and living comfortably and safely.
I will die fighting if I have to, but it will be defending my house and my relatives, that’s my compromise, I will not be sent to defend some random piece of land
It’s one of the last pieces of land where we ourselves still have some power over those old fucks. But democracy is fragile.
I am also a millenial, a woman. And I agree with you. Rather fight for liberty than in a dictatorship. I‘ve already lived in a dictatorship the first years of my life, and although a kid, I do remember what was like and my parent did explain to us that there are other things outside the bubble, that there is freedom outside. We were told not to talk about it outside of the family, of course, because of security police.
I like the system that the Swiss have, to have all your population trained. To also know how to handle guns and be working in a team snd whatever they do to train. And they get refreshers every year according to Le Chat: Yes, Swiss citizens who have completed their basic military training are required to participate in annual refresher courses. Specifically, after finishing basic training, individuals remain members of the Armed Forces for nine years and must complete six refresher courses, each lasting three weeks, during this period. These courses ensure that their military skills remain up-to-date and that they are prepared for any potential service requirements. The obligation to serve in the military or alternative civilian service typically applies from age 18 to 30 .„
I would not enter in that age requirement anymore, but I would still love to do it. It is never a bad idea to be prepared, even if you don’t have to use your skills. Also to learn how to sabotage possible invaders, I think it would be invaluable in case of war. Look at Ukraine when they were invaded. There are a lot of stories of normal people fighting greatly against the surprise invasion.
And a war nowadays would look different than what was in WW2. I am far from being an expert, I am none, but the military equipment modern Europe has, is different even of what they sent to Ukraine. I think they sent a lot of old stuff. And having fighter jets and stuff like that, would be more helpful for the fight.
I read the other day someone from Finland, I think, saying that their goal this year is to learn to fly drones, so he could help in case of Russian attack. Fighting for Europe does not mean always being on the frontline with a gun in your hands.
I am Swiss. Let me tell you, our army is a joke. The system is there but it’s only on paper. The leaders are cowardly bureaucrats stuck in 1975 level thinking. It’s an amassment of stupid people who can’t make it in the private sector. No one with a quarter of a brain can stand being in that organisation.
It’s an amassment of stupid people who can’t make it in the private sector. No one with a quarter of a brain can stand being in that organisation.
Sounds a bit like the German military. Does Swiss German also know the term “Zivilversager”?
Ziviluntauglich. Wer nicht Militärdienstfähig ist wird bei uns als “untauglich” klassifiziert, daher der Begriff.
:( Sorry to hear that. As human civilisation, we all lost honor, accountability, pride of a well done job. Sure, there are still a lot of people like that, but it is not the norm. We somehow need a reset, but we are not a computer that is easily resettable. And the systems in place just make people more broken. In my opinion education is everything, but to enforce good education…we are also depending on the current leaders. And there are very few good leaders in this world, because the system breaks you before getting in a position where you can make a change.
I think we also lack small communities. One‘s behaviour gets regulated by the feedback you have from the community. And it also can inspire you tu help and be a better person. In Today’s age, we are so individual, there are no external regulations, there is zero tolerance to being uncomfortable, because you don’t have to. Your life and basic necessities do not depend on your community as before. Most people are not bad, they are just misguided, unhappy and they do not know how to deal with emotions, how to self regulate. And if nobody regulates you with a feedback, yo go wild. I really hope there will be a change in our views now that it looks like Europe is on its own and we have to take care of each others. But I don’t put my hopes up too much.
As human civilisation, we all lost honor, accountability, pride of a well done job.
Decades of neoliberalism glorifying boundless egotism as the ultimate freedom and elevating limitless consumption to the highest human achievement made sure of it. Society has successfully taught people that there are no values beside monetary ones.
I think we also lack small communities.
Definitely. Unfortunately, neoliberalism with all its deregulation has also been systematically destroying the small scale economy that has kept small communities alive. Working class people can’t afford services of local small businesses anymore, and have to look for work further and further away from their homes. In rural areas hit especially hard by this (politically wanted) structural change, combined with systematic neglect of infrastructure and public services due to the cargo cult of austerity, it has already lead to a massive depopulation, leaving behind only the destitute who can barely afford a sense of community, and a handful of wealthy people who enjoy owning a cheap weekend home on the countryside just as much as they love to shit on the community it is located in.
I agree!
Do you think that joining into literal, dangerous, physical battle is a useful contribution to further that cause? If you think it would be useful, do you think it necessary? Or do you feel it’s simply the only contribution you could offer and you’d feel powerless otherwise?
No there are multiple jobs in military and war needs many different skills. I’m a software developer, the military also uses software so maybe that’s a thing I could do. But if it turns out my physical presence on the front line is more important then that is what I would do. I don’t have a wife or kids, no dependencies.
But one senior army commander said members of Generation Z — renowned in the business world for their efforts to reshape corporate culture — were also going into the armed forces with different ideas and outlooks. “People are vulnerable, they cry easily,” he said. “They talk about work-life balance.”
“I understand that,” the commander added. “They grew up in a different time. It’s not a bad perspective. But it doesn’t match that well with a wartime situation.”
Work-life balance obviously goes out the window in a war (actually, life itself does). Does being vulnerable really preclude you from being brave, though?
We live in a hyper-individualistic society which is self-centred. This is only exacerbated by social media, where attention and being the main character is more important than ever. The new generation is living more and more in society. Instead of being part of society. Being part of something bigger is uncommon nowadays. Which makes participation in something as extreme as a war unfathomable. If you look at countries with high levels of civil sense like Taiwan. We see school uniforms and military service. Kids are being raised to be part of a free and democratic society, not to just live in it.
I can’t really provide evidence for or against that in recent years, but I’ll point out the greatest generation grew up during the literal great depression.
Vulnerability not, but sympathy misunderstood for empathy will. I don’t think German Gen Z doesn’t enlist because of vulnerability, but because of culture. German liberal nationalism relies on ‘Never again’ as a mantra of nonaggression; to them the Bundeswehr was always a compromise against the NVA.
Schools until recently told us that conventional war is ‘fallen out of time’, “look at UN, EU, OSCE”.
As a German Gen Z my main concern would be the fact that you can’t rely on the promise that our army is purely there for defence. I’m ready to defend my home and the home of my neighbors but I’m not willing to be sent to another continent to (allegedly) do so. Right now that may not be an issue but these things can change overnight.
What do you mean? Germany is defended in the Hindukush of course /s
Exactly 😄
Last year I was seriously considering having myself examined for those new-ish territorial defense units in the reserve.
With the theoretical possibility of an AgD/CxU government the risk of having to guard some camps instead of critical infrastructure has become greater than 0, therefore I will wait for at least six months to see how Fritz von Papen fares.
German liberal nationalism is a sham for different reasons, but also neoliberalism destroyed the economic social contract.
Why should i die, so old people can sit in their large houses unaffordable to me, despite my better qualification, while they also destroy the environment and proudly fuel climate change with their big cars and cruise travels? Of course there is also plenty of old people who barely get by. But those dont demand the young people to sacrifice themselves in the reactionary “liberal” media.
At the same time Germany does have access to higher education without going through the military if you aren’t affluent. So forcing the poor into the military as the only option to escape poverty is not as severe like in the US.
You should look at it through a more utilitarianism POV. If your country gets invaded, not only do you loose your way of life, culture and society get impacted to the point where you won’t be able to continue as normal, but the environmental destruction of war in your own country far outweighs what the gerontocratic part of your society does today. You only have to look to Ukraine for that.
So it might be more advantageously to voluntarily undergo military training, so that in the event of an invasion you can try to defend your way of life and continue to strive for a more equal and environmental conscious society after the war is over.
Schools until recently told us that conventional war is ‘fallen out of time’, “look at UN, EU, OSCE”.
Wow, that’s been the attitude here too, but you never hear people say it outright.
Technically, conventional war is largely obsolete. As long as you do have a reliable and credible nuclear deterrent. Germany has long been in the very comfortable position to fool itself into deeming conventional war obsolete without having to maintain an own nuclear deterrent. With the USA finally having revealed itself to even the most servile transatlanticist as an utterly unreliable ally, (in fact, as more of the kind of “ally” commonly referred to as “enemy”) this illusion is falling apart.
Oh, well that’s true. How is the offer of formal protection by France being received? I’d hate to see more proliferation.
Yeah that’s why current events hit people twice as hard. We basically all assumed peace to be a given. It’s not.
I wish the West could have woken up before it was on top of us.
Better late than never
Absolutely.
It was true. It was the longest continuous peace in Europe ever.
Yeah, but, they all end. Nobody ever had a good argument why it had to go on forever.
Military service is a hard concept to grasp when you’re sitting comfy at home, not a care in the world and all the conflicts are “over there”.
It’s a very different story when there is an existential threat looming over your head, weighing on your shoulders like a mountain. Canada’s armed forces is already meeting its yearly recruitment targets due to repeated threats of invasion from the United States.
Can’t blame anyone for not wanting to risk their lhealth or even lives. More and more people doing that is probably a good thing in general. Brings everyone closer to making the old adage “imagine there’s war and nobody comes” a reality.
It can only be a good thing if the enemy shares the same values, which is not the case with Russia.
It can only be a good thing if the enemy shares the same values, which is not the case with Russia.
Even if it only leads to reconsidering and restructuring conventional “militaries” then I’d also count that as a drop in the good-bucket. I can’t quite see values factoring into it, what do you mean by that?
You’ve got to be joking acting like you dont understand the stakes of war
You’ve got to be joking acting like you dont understand the stakes of war
I think there might be some misunderstanding here - what do you think I wrote in my previous post? What am I missing?
For example that you cannot just invade other countries to take them over, that you shouldn’t kill people with other religions or sexual preferences, or that your country is superior to all the others.
For example that you cannot just invade other countries to take them over, that you shouldn’t kill people with other religions or sexual preferences, or that your country is superior to all the others.
Apologies for not wording that more clearly, but I was not asking for examples of value differences. I was asking why you think value differences make more and more people refusing to risk their lives not a good thing.
In a book published this week, Why I Would Never Fight for My Country, the 27-year-old argues ordinary people should not be sent into battle on behalf of nation states and their rulers — even to fend off an invasion. Occupation by a foreign power might lead to a “shitty” life, he told the Financial Times. “But I’d rather be occupied than dead.”
Is he familiar with occupied Palestine?
Occupied
PolandAlgeriaChinaUkrainethe dude with that photo… i never seen someone so out of touch, a 27 year old boomer
I mean, even if it doesn’t go towards genocide, have they considered the new power’s probable policy on military service? They have to have a chapter on that, right?
What a mess.
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Very good! War is never a solution.
War is not a solution, but not being able to defend yourself and your allies in case of aggression is also not a solution.
Good.
Why be ready to fight and possibly kill or die for a country that is less and less worth it everyday?
Because it’s going to get a LOT worse once a greedy dictator decides to annex another country.
Don’t need to tell me but one thing is visible and tangible everyday and the other thing is something way more abstract for most.
Good luck trying that here. All kids are fat asses.
