I still think that the underlying problem is purely a collapsing economic system. This has always been the case in the capitalist system when, due to some crisis, the speculative bubble burst, always in the quest for infinite growth. This situation always ended with a war, for which any pretext was used, to make a reset, especially by imperialist countries whose largest investments are in the military and weapons field. Destroyed countries with a reduced population are always a huge deal with reconstruction, to start this cycle of infinite growth again. It’s that simple. All of the current neo-liberal governments should be hanged by the balls to do justice to the people who, as always, pay for these excesses with misery and suffering.
The fact that Ukraine was falling apart all on its own was why I didn’t see the logic in Russia actually invading. They could’ve just sat there and waited for more regions to separate.
They could’ve just sat there and waited for more regions to separate.
Perhaps Putin knows something the rest of us don’t.
Like, I dunno… that more regions didn’t want to separate, and any pretense to the contrary was purely through his own meddling?
Or perhaps he knows that most regions will either support or not resist Russia?
That’s perhaps true. But if it is, then you’re right back to being confused as to why he bothered to invade, seeing as he could’ve just sat there and waited for them to separate.
There’s that point in time where the flat-earthers run their properly designed experiment, say to themselves “Gee, that’s funny, it’s almost like the Earth is round”… and 3 seconds later “Naaah! That’s crazy, must be something wrong with our setup”.
You’re experiencing that moment in time, that slight little split second.
I don’t even know why. I get that you’re a Marxist, and if this were 1970-something and we were talking about the USSR, it’d be one thing. The loyalty would make sense. But Putin’s not even close to that. He’s working from a playbook written by that neo-fascist Dugin. It’s pretty fucking bizarre.
You don’t have to accept that the USA and Europe are good guys (hell, even I don’t believe that myself). Just know that some fights are between two or more sets of comparably bad guys.
Not really sure what’s there to be confused about. If Russia calculated that they would get popular support they might’ve decided that there would be little repercussions.
The west already said that NATO wouldn’t engage Russia militarily, and said exactly what sanctions would be placed on Russia. So, Russia knows exactly what the blow back would be. Since the west decided to start sanctions after Russia recognized Donbas republics, there wouldn’t be any tougher response going forward.
Furthermore, there could be a bigger calculation to drag the west into a new cold war that Russia believes it would have an advantage in right now. Western economies are in a dire state after the pandemic, and being dragged into an arms race with Russia and China will certainly not help things. Energy prices in Europe are skyrocketing already, and US will likely double down on more military spending. All of that will directly lead to decline in material conditions in the west. And that will further fuel civil unrest that’s already happening.
You also seem to be under a delusion that I’m supporting Putin here. I’m simply explaining to you what the rationale is. I don’t support the capitalist government in Russia in any way. I think that recognition of Donbas republics was justified given that Ukraine failed to implement Minsk agreements, but I don’t think Russia is in the right invading Ukraine.
That said, the west is largely responsible for this situation. There was every opportunity to work with Russia constructively after USSR collapsed and to treat Russia as an equal partner in a win-win relationship. Instead, the west chose to run a campaign of aggression and to keep expanding NATO military alliance. That’s how we got to where we are today.
I don’t support the capitalist government in Russia in any way.
Thanks for stating that clearly : let’s all oppose this horrible aggression of Russia against Ukraine.
I completely agree that Russia’s aggression must be opposed. There isn’t any justification for what Russia did.
Yes, but this don’t help the economy. The problem in Ukraine has existed for more than 8 years with the oppression of the pro-Russian population, which has already cost more than 10,000 deaths.
But this has not interested anyone. But now, with an economy on the ground, both in Russia and in the US, now suddenly Ukraine is moving into the center of interest, the US doing business selling weapons to Ukraine, with the promise of making them members of NATO and Russia taking the relief, providing support to the pro-Russian side.
Putin claiming that the US wants to extend its influence to its borders while Biden says that Russia wants to annex Ukraine. To take a simile, what would the US say, when Russia proposes to arm Cuba by including them in the Soviet defense? Ah, okay, we already had this.
Meanwhile, the arms industry of both blocs earning a nose of gold and flourishing the economies of both, and the EU between the sword and the wall, as members of the NATO defending interests of EEUU but not the own.
As I said, to hang them by the balls, both.
And here I was being told that Russia was just dropping by a couple of separatist regions by invitation and wasn’t going to invade. I’m getting ready for those goalposts to move like lightning. Oh no, that’s not imperialist bullying, merely a light shelling.
Personally, I didn’t see what angle there would be for Russia to actually invade Ukraine. Recognizing Donetsk and Luhansk was justified, but going further than that takes away any legitimacy from Russian position.
It seems like recognizing the Donbass region as separate republics was always going to be a stepping stone to attacking the rest of Ukraine.
Totally didn’t see that coming
I know you are being sarcastic, but there were a handful of people across Lemmy insisting there was no invasion coming.
They said that the military buildup didn’t happen, that it was just the latest in a history of false alarms, that it was just the west warmongering, etc. and basically spent the last week calling people crazy for suspecting that any attack was on the table.
Oops, just wrong about an impending war where the evidence was screamingly obvious. No biggie.
they were saying this shit for 8 fucking years of course we thought it would be prudent to ignore it you idiot
I’m sure half of lemmygrad thinks NATO blew up Kyiv
There was never any legitimacy
Given what NATO and Ukraine have been up to, there absolutely was
https://twitter.com/ASBMilitary/status/1496876089838342156
https://jacobinmag.com/2022/02/maidan-protests-neo-nazis-russia-nato-crimea
Here’s a direct quote from page 54 of your final piece of evidence:
The revelations from the trials and investigations which confirm that the Maidan massacre of the protesters and the police was a false flag operation which involved Maidan snipers and elements of the Maidan leadership have major implications for understanding not only this crucial case of political violence in Ukraine.
Quick question, why didn’t you copy the entire quote?
The revelations from the trials and investigations which confirm that the Maidan massacre of the protesters and the police was a false flag operation which involved Maidan snipers and elements of the Maidan leadership have major implications for understanding not only this crucial case of political violence in Ukraine. They have major implications for understanding the “Euromaidan” and the origins of the violent conflict in Ukraine and the conflicts between Russia and Ukraine and between Russia and the West. The revelations from the Maidan massacre trials and investigations show that the narratives promoted by the Ukrainian and Western governments and with some notable exceptions the media that the Maidan protesters were massacred by government snipers and/or the Berkut police are false.
I miss-read that =\
You just combed the document for a quote that supported your biases without actually reading it.
It’s unfortunate that literally everyone you were arguing with apparently was able to see the trajectory of events more clearly than you.
Hopefully some self-reflection will be in order and you can see if the same errors of judgment are compromising your ability to evaluate subsequent events in Ukraine and make excuses, and if your counterparts making the same arguments as you are similarly blind.
Nina Khrushcheva, a professor at the New School, spoke to NPR this morning. Like you, she was dismissing talk of an impending invasion as Western-driven hysteria. She confessed on the air that this was a major embarrassment for her, which I found to be a nice moment of accountability. Surely you can follow her example.
I base my assessment on the available facts. At the time I did not see the benefit for Russia to invade Ukraine since they were getting what they wanted by being measured. Clearly events worked out differently, and we’re in a new situation now. I’m not sure what self-reflection you’re suggesting I should be doing here. Are you suggesting that I shouldn’t evaluate events based on the available facts?
Totally obtuse answer. I’m saying that your assessment of what counted as “the facts” and your interpretation of them was completely wrong, and possibly driven by biases that you may want to examine further, and I gave you the example of another person who, in a similar case took ownership of their mistake.
If you think a JV debate team game where you try and twist my words into “oh, so you didn’t want me to look at ThE fAcTs?!”, that’s just a signal in favor of the conclusion that you have been and are continuing to be completely disingenuous. These are just not adult answers.
What specifically are you claiming was completely wrong in my assessment?
We’ll get to that, if you want an hour long tedious point by point debate where you constantly argue definitions and split differences.
But first, what I’m telling you know is that “oh, so you didn’t want me to look at the facts” is a totally obtuse and disingenuous paraphrase and a signal that nobody on Lemmy should bother trying to reason with you, because you aren’t willing to try.
Somehow the rest of the world, including everyone you were arguing with, were able to see it from the same set of “tHe FaCtS” and see the obvious and you weren’t, and you don’t want to do any self-reflection unless lead by the nose through god knows how many tedious paragraphs of details, fighting every step of the way. More responsible people, such as Nina Kruscheva are able to do that on their own.
What I’m telling you is that Russia was getting what they wanted without the need to invade. The facts are that western powers were engaged in active diplomacy with Russia, and that Ukrainian economy was crashing. Simply recognizing Donbas republics and waiting would’ve worked in Russia’s favor in the long term. Please explain to me what specifically you claim to be at odds with the facts in that assessment.
Actually invading Ukraine will clearly destroy any chance for diplomacy between Russia and Europe and help galvanize NATO. I personally don’t see how this is to Russia’s benefit, but again perhaps you can explain to me why I was deluded to think that.
Despite all your bloviating here, you haven’t actually said a single thing of substance. You just keep repeating how “ThE ReSt Of tHe WoRLd” came to a different conclusion, without explaining the basis for it.
all of the bullshit “justifications” you’ve been fed are lies
Please be specific what you’re claiming to be lies. What I said was that it looked like the repercussions for Russia invading Ukraine would be undesirable. Meanwhile, working diplomatically with the west would produce the results that Russia wanted. I also noted that Ukraine was carrying out attacked against ethnic Russian population in Ukraine, and even provided sources including actual research to support that. What specifically are you claiming I lied about?
I hate being right on this situation :/
Same. I was hoping that it was all some big bluff to extract concessions without going all out.
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Nothing says “protecting civilians” like a little shelling
There has been no shelling of civilian targets.
…except that civilians tend to live in cities, like Kyiv. Or hospitals in Syria. Right, you certainty contradicts the facts.
On what basis do you make that claim?
On the basis of “Putin can do no wrong and his farts taste like cotton candy” I presume
Unnecessary.
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You didn’t cite anything
There is still no invasion into Ukraine. Fake news.
The Russians literally have boots and bombs on the ground in several major cities including Kiev. In what universe is that not an invasion?
Boots on the ground in Kiev? Are you serious? I have to see this. Let’s see where you’re getting this from.
Looking a little further, they’re trying to get boots on the ground by taking the Kiev airport.
Yeah so you were wrong, weren’t you? But let’s keep going. How do you know they took Kiev airport? Or even what their intentions are?
They’re attacking the airport right now with paratroopers.
It’s hard to do a lot worse than literally being wrong about an invasion every step of the way in real time.
Really? Again, let’s see where you are getting this from.
You’ve lost all credibility.
There was no full-scale invasion two days ago. I stand by what I said.
Just a half-scale invasion then? Is that like being half pregnant? It’s kind of either/or.
No it’s not. There’s not just peace and war. There’s in between. For example, in Syria, the US has never been in all at war with the Syrian government. They’ve used hybrid warfare and other methods. There was that one time as well where Trump ordered a tomahawk to destroy a Syrian air field. Still no all out war. And also when Trump ordered the assassination of Soleimani without engaging in warfare with Iran. Countries can engage in military attacks without invading or waging war.
You started by claiming this isn’t a “full scale invasion”, which if the goal is to “demilitarize” Ukraine will require that. Bolstering break-away provinces doesn’t require attacks on the capital. Russia has been using hybrid warfare in Ukraine since Crimea, but now this does begin to look like war and not some one-shot retaliatory strike.
Now it does, I agree. According to the Kremlin, the military operation was paused as it looked like Zelensky was willing to negotiate neutrality. Now that has fallen through, they have resumed the operation today, so it seems like tonight we will see a big escalation in military action now.
Demilitarization is just the reduction of armed forces. So yes you can demilitarize a country without a full scale invasion.
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Literally within 3 hours of your comment.
A lot of these videos have been fact checked as false and out of context
I mean, even twitter had this thing to debunk false claims
https://twitter.com/i/events/1496815373936574469
Not saying that Russians aren’t in Ukraine right now, they could very well be, but I object strongly to people jumping to conclusions about a full scale invasion, when it looks like the real narrative is Russia has done a one off attack for political leverage.
You are from lemmygrad, so I assume you trust China at least somewhat. This was China’s stance.
https://www.reuters.com/world/china/china-calls-restraint-ukraine-rejects-term-invasion-2022-02-24/
I wanted to post it, but lemmy wouldn’t do it for some reasonLet’s flip this. If the US was bombing Moscow’s airport and rolling tanks across the border, would you be calling for not being too hasty about calling it an invasion?
If I was living in a Russia dominated media and social media environment, and people were making false claims about the scale of USA’s actions for the purpose of warmongering, I absolutely would want people to be cautious
Russia has come out and said they did both of these things. It’s not under dispute.
I variety of sources such as Ukrainian officials, your cousin on twitter, some random farmer in Kharkov. Many of the more extreme claims are being fact checked now.
Thanks for posting the link. I know that footage from other conflicts from different times are often circulated inappropriately and are used for misinformation. You’re correct in saying that I don’t know for certain whether or not any particular source is genuine.
I am from Lemmygrad, and had not seen this exact response from China, however I don’t necessarily need to agree with everything the Chinese government says. In 1979 they didn’t like calling their own invasion of Vietnam an invasion, instead opting in favour of the term “the self-defensive counterattack against Vietnam”.
I found a link to a similar article except it’s from an Indian media outlet and you don’t need to register an account to read the whole thing. Leaving this in case anyone is interested.
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Did you mean to write a blank comment?
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Tonight, Ukrainian military invaded Luhansk, despite Russian recognition of LPR as independent
SourceDespite knowing Russia would defend what they recognize as a sovereign country, they poked the bear.
Russia orchestrated a surgical strike to disable Ukraine’s military infrastructure and prevent them from killing any more people in Donbas. They succeeded completely in little over an hour. Reportedly the Azov Battalion headquarters has been destroyed as well, and leaders have fled to Poland. Too early to tell.
From everything I’ve seen so far, Russia is not occupying Ukraine. They are not invading Ukraine. Striking infrastructure outside of major cities was their goal.
Heres tanks 200 km from Kyiv
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPGyfFSWFJU
https://twitter.com/franakviacorka/status/1496751495928295428“Russia is not
massing troopsbombinginvadingoccupying Ukraine.”I’ve never denied the first two things when they actually happened. You imply that I’m moving the goalposts but you can go through my history if you want. I’ve stayed consistent.
Russian airborne troops have apparently taken Antonov airport outside Kyiv
Russia was not going to wait for the Ukronazi offensive, but decided to attack first. Now its time to demilitarize and denazify Ukraine. No clear confirmation of a Russian ground invasion, the attack was carried out with artillery and air strikes on military targets (and very effectively).
Is this just the Cliffnotes of a Putin speech?
