It wasn’t me personalizing the debate. But since we’re there I do fear being a victim of this violence, as I live in one of the cities affected by it, and I do fear the right wing turn this will provoke. People like you, comfortably justifying this nonsense from their sofa, are part of the problem and I’m quite sure you’re not personally worried with a far right government coming to power. You should be though.
I understand you’re afraid to be a victim of this violence. I still disagree with your takes here, and you clearly aren’t arguing in good faith.
People like you, comfortably justifying this nonsense
I explicitly said it wasn’t necessarily justified, but that it was understandable and logical nonetheless.
I’m quite sure you’re not personally worried with a far right government coming to power
I very much am. But it’s possible to simultaneously be worried about how right wingers will twist this while also acknowledging this reaction makes sense looking at the bigger picture.
This reaction does not make sense if the goal is social peace, I don’t believe these rioters want social peace. They want unrest and they’re achieving their goal. It’s short sighted, but it’s what it is. And then some lefties uncapable of emptying the tires of an SUV (a valid direct action) get all “I undertsand” this pointless violence because of “reasons”. And then you wonder why left wing voters turn to the right.
Most people in the suburbs do not participate in these riots, they fear them, this only decreases the life quality of such places etc etc “understanding” won’t help stop them, but it’s the reason why so many people from minority backgrounds end up voting for Le Pen, because they’re fed up of living like this.
Yeah congratulations, this isn’t a well organised social movement. It’s ab outburst of years of pent up frustration. They’re not trying to achieve any specific goals here. Yet again, you fundamentally misunderstand what riots are about and then condescendingly whine that it’s not a focused effort at bringing about societal change - while that’s not what it was from the start. You keep droning on about long term goals, but you just don’t understand that this is an outburst after years of taking it on the chin.
It’s like someone who’s been mistreated by their partner for year, and who now lashes out and starts kicking and screaming - meanwhile you’re on the sidelines saying that they should engage in a constructive dialogue. Ok cool, that would be nice in an ideal world, but that wasn’t going to happen here.
this pointless violence because of “reasons”
Ah dope, you’re clearly trying to understand the background here.
And then you wonder why left wing voters turn to the right.
Nah, I understand perfectly well why people turn to right wingers. They’re unburdened by the need for truth, so they can twist this into whatever populist narrative they like. Add onto that that a whole lot of leftists are actually spineless neolibs who wear red, and there you are. However, what you’re implying here is problematic. Either I should completely agree with your take (which is funnily largely in line with what liberals (not leftists) would say, or in aiding and abetting the far right. Yeah ok lmao.
but it’s the reason why so many people from minority backgrounds end up voting for Le Pen, because they’re fed up of living like this.
Correct, this is a product of liberals pretending they care about everyone while not wanting to change the status quo, thereby keeping minorities under their heel. When this (inevitably) goes awry, right wing reactionaries are there to capitalise on that inherent hypocrisy. However, that does not mean we shouldn’t try to understand how this came to be, and that we shouldn’t be empathetic. Otherising minorities and bending over backward to not understand their motivations and frustrations (like you’re doing) is exactly what right wingers want and do.
And yet again, I want to emphasise that I don’t like this violence, it won’t lead to change, and reactionaries will use it to their advantage. All of that’s sad to tragic, but that doesn’t mean these riots aren’t understandable. And that’s what you’re missing; you recognise it won’t do too much to help their cause, and because of that you dismiss everything about it entirely. That’s why you can’t possibly fathom why people in Brussels are rioting as well. That’s why you bang on about it not being effective activism. It’s because you fundamentally don’t seem to (want to) understand how and why riots and social unrest come to be.
Those comparisons of yours are really unfortunate. No, this is not comparable to the woman abused by the husband. This is not an individual story. And the reason why it spreads to Brussels but not Amsterdam or Madrid is culture. Culture, not just language and definetely not the level of police abuse. And this culture of violence should not be understood but fought.
It was an analogy in a vain attempt to make you understand how lashing out works, and how your condescending and paternalistic attitude is absurd - but I should’ve known you’re too thick-skulled to even try to get it.
And yeah wow, social movements spread faster when people have more in common? Thanks for the insight, fam. Like yeah, that’s god damn obvious and I’m not sure why you think this is some sort of gotcha. It hit home for so many people in Brussels because they share a lot of the same problems, while having the same cultural background and speaking the same languages. You’re so close to getting why these riots spread to Brussels, but above all you just want to be mad about the violence.
I understand your frustration with and anxiety about these riots, but you’re letting those feelings keep you from grappling with the how and the why of these riots. Unless you try to show some understanding, I see no reason to continue this conversation.
Also, something I forgot to add; Le Pen and co will make up a narrative regardless of the situation. “They’ll use this to their advantage” isn’t really a convincing point, because if nothing real is happening they’ll just make something up. What’s more, the narrative they spin about this will mostly be lies anyway, as it always is.
Point being, this is not made up, this is reality. People are wishing for order and police in their street right now. Whoever delivers it wins, it might even be Macron’s party… but definetely not the left that “understands”. Because the people stuck in their apartment all weekend or with their bicycle or car stolen or burnt is not understanding the impunity of these tugs.
Their narrative about this will largely be made up, using these riots to pretend that people with foreign backgrounds are dangerous savages or something like that. They always take something that really happened and twist it into something it’s not.
Therefore, it makes no sense to change your opinion or interpretation of a situation based on how the right wing will use it to spin a narrative. There’s always something they can be mad about, and they’ll always pretend it’s worse than it actually is.
What the fuck are you on about? You have to be being dense on purpose now.
Says the guy that called me a wanker from the confort of his shelter
What does that have to do with anything?
It wasn’t me personalizing the debate. But since we’re there I do fear being a victim of this violence, as I live in one of the cities affected by it, and I do fear the right wing turn this will provoke. People like you, comfortably justifying this nonsense from their sofa, are part of the problem and I’m quite sure you’re not personally worried with a far right government coming to power. You should be though.
I understand you’re afraid to be a victim of this violence. I still disagree with your takes here, and you clearly aren’t arguing in good faith.
I explicitly said it wasn’t necessarily justified, but that it was understandable and logical nonetheless.
I very much am. But it’s possible to simultaneously be worried about how right wingers will twist this while also acknowledging this reaction makes sense looking at the bigger picture.
This reaction does not make sense if the goal is social peace, I don’t believe these rioters want social peace. They want unrest and they’re achieving their goal. It’s short sighted, but it’s what it is. And then some lefties uncapable of emptying the tires of an SUV (a valid direct action) get all “I undertsand” this pointless violence because of “reasons”. And then you wonder why left wing voters turn to the right.
Most people in the suburbs do not participate in these riots, they fear them, this only decreases the life quality of such places etc etc “understanding” won’t help stop them, but it’s the reason why so many people from minority backgrounds end up voting for Le Pen, because they’re fed up of living like this.
Yeah congratulations, this isn’t a well organised social movement. It’s ab outburst of years of pent up frustration. They’re not trying to achieve any specific goals here. Yet again, you fundamentally misunderstand what riots are about and then condescendingly whine that it’s not a focused effort at bringing about societal change - while that’s not what it was from the start. You keep droning on about long term goals, but you just don’t understand that this is an outburst after years of taking it on the chin.
It’s like someone who’s been mistreated by their partner for year, and who now lashes out and starts kicking and screaming - meanwhile you’re on the sidelines saying that they should engage in a constructive dialogue. Ok cool, that would be nice in an ideal world, but that wasn’t going to happen here.
Ah dope, you’re clearly trying to understand the background here.
Nah, I understand perfectly well why people turn to right wingers. They’re unburdened by the need for truth, so they can twist this into whatever populist narrative they like. Add onto that that a whole lot of leftists are actually spineless neolibs who wear red, and there you are. However, what you’re implying here is problematic. Either I should completely agree with your take (which is funnily largely in line with what liberals (not leftists) would say, or in aiding and abetting the far right. Yeah ok lmao.
Correct, this is a product of liberals pretending they care about everyone while not wanting to change the status quo, thereby keeping minorities under their heel. When this (inevitably) goes awry, right wing reactionaries are there to capitalise on that inherent hypocrisy. However, that does not mean we shouldn’t try to understand how this came to be, and that we shouldn’t be empathetic. Otherising minorities and bending over backward to not understand their motivations and frustrations (like you’re doing) is exactly what right wingers want and do.
And yet again, I want to emphasise that I don’t like this violence, it won’t lead to change, and reactionaries will use it to their advantage. All of that’s sad to tragic, but that doesn’t mean these riots aren’t understandable. And that’s what you’re missing; you recognise it won’t do too much to help their cause, and because of that you dismiss everything about it entirely. That’s why you can’t possibly fathom why people in Brussels are rioting as well. That’s why you bang on about it not being effective activism. It’s because you fundamentally don’t seem to (want to) understand how and why riots and social unrest come to be.
Those comparisons of yours are really unfortunate. No, this is not comparable to the woman abused by the husband. This is not an individual story. And the reason why it spreads to Brussels but not Amsterdam or Madrid is culture. Culture, not just language and definetely not the level of police abuse. And this culture of violence should not be understood but fought.
It was an analogy in a vain attempt to make you understand how lashing out works, and how your condescending and paternalistic attitude is absurd - but I should’ve known you’re too thick-skulled to even try to get it.
And yeah wow, social movements spread faster when people have more in common? Thanks for the insight, fam. Like yeah, that’s god damn obvious and I’m not sure why you think this is some sort of gotcha. It hit home for so many people in Brussels because they share a lot of the same problems, while having the same cultural background and speaking the same languages. You’re so close to getting why these riots spread to Brussels, but above all you just want to be mad about the violence.
I understand your frustration with and anxiety about these riots, but you’re letting those feelings keep you from grappling with the how and the why of these riots. Unless you try to show some understanding, I see no reason to continue this conversation.
Also, something I forgot to add; Le Pen and co will make up a narrative regardless of the situation. “They’ll use this to their advantage” isn’t really a convincing point, because if nothing real is happening they’ll just make something up. What’s more, the narrative they spin about this will mostly be lies anyway, as it always is.
Point being, this is not made up, this is reality. People are wishing for order and police in their street right now. Whoever delivers it wins, it might even be Macron’s party… but definetely not the left that “understands”. Because the people stuck in their apartment all weekend or with their bicycle or car stolen or burnt is not understanding the impunity of these tugs.
Their narrative about this will largely be made up, using these riots to pretend that people with foreign backgrounds are dangerous savages or something like that. They always take something that really happened and twist it into something it’s not.
Therefore, it makes no sense to change your opinion or interpretation of a situation based on how the right wing will use it to spin a narrative. There’s always something they can be mad about, and they’ll always pretend it’s worse than it actually is.