Body positivity is such a strange concept to me. There’s efforts to reclaim words while simultaneously calling them bad if used as an insult. Ideally, people wouldn’t be offended by someone describing their body with common descriptors, but socially there is so much value attributed to certain body types that it’s almost impossible to avoid having an emotional response of some kind to various descriptors.
For example, It’s not bad to be fat, but calling someone “fat” is almost universally considered a bad thing. The same definitely seems to go for the idea of being “short.”
I’m asking this question because I can’t put my finger on why but something seems to be different about the use of the term “short” from the use of the term “fat.” I think that part of it is how, to me at least, the term “fat” is so generic and hard to nail down to a discrete definition, implying that the word really doesn’t have a clear connection to reality. On the other hand, height is a single-dimensional number. You either are above a certain threshold, or you aren’t.
I recently learned that May 6th to May 10th is “short king week” because it’s 5’6" to 5’10" which then prompted me to search for the origins of “short king” and apparently the person most-credited with popularizing the term is Jaboukie Young-White who claims the term was meant to include all men under 6 feet tall. The average adult male height is 5’9" leaving men considered roughly average to be called “short” which is still considered an insult by many.
I dunno. As a term that was intended to champion body positivity compared with how the term is actually used, what do you think of “short king?”
I’m 5’6" and find the term childish and insulting. It’s not the short part, it’s the king part. I am not a king, I’m a regular guy working a regular job.
“Body positivity” is garbage. People should be honest and support healthy lifestyles. Twisting reality to make someone comfortable is detrimental to their physical and mental health.
I don’t understand the reasoning but, across the board, it seems today’s culture is very quick to accept literal delusions in place of reality for the sake of feelings and “mental well being”.
I think that you have internalized a version of body positivity that lies on the most extreme end of what is meant by that phrase. Body positivity - be comfortable with who you are and do not put down on others due to their body.
The odds are that I am significantly fatter than you. The odds also favor that I am significantly stronger than you, even if you lift weights. I can also probably walk all day much farther than you can.
Would it be healthier if I lose body fat? Absolutely. Have I tried for 20 years to do that? Yes. I am not ignorant regarding nutrition. I am not lazy. I am not overall lacking willpower. I am fat but otherwise healthy.
Body positively means that my doctor treats my body fat as what it is - one aspect of my overall health. He does not assume that every problem I have is because I am fat, even though changing that would improve some aspects of my health.
Body positively also means that I am not going to hide when I go to the beach. I am going to go shirtless and enjoy myself. If you do not find me sexually attractive, that is fine. If you are going to shame or mock me for my body fat, then you are an asshole. If I catch wind of you mocking me, I will quietly estimate how many times your bodyweight I will deadlift on Monday. If you choose to mock the scars that cover parts of my body from extreme, life-saving surgery, I may feel the need to firmly educate you on exactly what sort of asshole you are.
Body positively often conjures the image of a morbidly obese girl on OnlyFans who lets people pay to watch her binge and intentionally get fatter while she says being purposefully inactive is just as healthy as hitting the gym. The real versions of that person are extremely rare, but their radicalism, vociferous nature, and platform make their voices much louder in comparison. Their argument is also easy to find flaw with and mock, so they get used as if they are a typical example of body positivity.
You are right in that the woman I describe above needs help and is not behaving in a safe or healthy way. I also understand why you might think that is the norm. She is not, though, and I would encourage you to look deeper at the meaning of the “movement.”
The “you” above is generic and based on broad assumptions. You, the reader, might be stronger than me and have way more endurance than me. You also might be fatter than I am. The odds are very good that you are also not an asshole. My point was to call out variances from the norm as convenient examples, of which I have plenty in both directions.
If you’re a hundred pounds overweight, you should not be comfortable with who you are. People who support or celebrate morbid obesity are bad people.
Yeah, shits me to tears that people think it’s OK,
I lost 35kgs through diet exercise etc and I felt absolutely amazing at the 30kg loss mark.
Didn’t think I felt bad at 125kg at 6ft tall when I hit 95 I felt amazing. Knees joints life everything easy.
Getting down to 90 on strict diet was hard and life just wasn’t fun anymore. Sure 6pack was cool and all but just no fun. I’m not blessed with those skinny genetics.
Anyone who’s fat and not been skinny in their adult life shouldn’t think they’re healthy and happy because everything is better when you’re actually at a healthy weight.
It does not appear that you are really listening to others to do much as commenting pithy things, and I am not sure if you have some specific reason for this or if you are just picking fights.
But let’s still break this down. Literally no one here is talking about celebrating morbid obesity. That is pretty much a straw man at this point.
Morbidly obese people should be able to look in the mirror and think to themselves, “I look good today!” They should be allowed to go out without worry that someone will make fun of them. They should be able to go to the doctor and be heard instead of the doctor assuming every health problem is only caused by obesity.
If you disagree with the above statements, please be very clear as to why. Everybody deserves quality medical care from their physician. Everybody deserves to not hate themselves. Everybody deserves to not be kicked for their appearance.
No one is saying, “Woo-hoo! Try to be so fat it harms your health!” I would suggest you read up on the science of weight loss and why so many little are obese these days. There is not universal consensus, but there is general agreement that the deck is highly stacked against many people, and extra body fat is not a simple condition to deal with in many circumstances.
People should try to lead the healthiest lifestyle they are reasonably able. No one is stating otherwise.
Your other comment I can’t respond to for whatever the Lemmy reason lol, I very much like your take on these matters, also slightly adjacent, what is your dead?
Thank you. I don’t have notes handy, but my deadlift was around 360 lbs. for 8-12 when I was last training it directly. A few health-related issues have sidelined my lifting for a couple months (post-cancer life sucks sometimes), but I am cleared to get back into the gym next week!
My legs are where I really shine, with my calculated one rep max for the sled press up in the mid 800s and working sets in the 600s. That is my lift where people stop and look twice.
I agree that we should strive for people to be healthy. But there’s a lot of evidence to suggest that shame not only is ineffective but can actually have the opposite effect.
Besides, I think you’re being pretty reductive. Health includes both physical and mental, we should take steps to improve both of these. And I get the sense that you specifically take issue with body positivity specifically around fat people, as I assume you don’t think being short or tall is unhealthy. In which case, you’re ignoring the economics of it (at least in America, there are a ton of government subsidies for corn, incentivizing businesses to load up our food with corn syrup).
The issue is complex and so would any solutions. At least in America, we need to deincentivize the production of unhealthy food, better access to healthcare, and cultural shifts as well. And I’m sure there’s a whole lot I’m missing.
If you’re ashamed for being overweight, that’s something that should motivate you to lose the weight. Embracing being fat and blaming others is not healthy, it’s delusional.
There’s also a ton of government subsidizes for other fruits and vegetables. Don’t blame the government for your poor eating habits. Learn to prepare real food. It’s healthier, cheaper, and more abundant. You don’t need to deincentivize producing unhealthy food, you just need to choose not to eat it.
This culture of supporting people who are overweight is making us all lose sight of what a healthy lifestyle looks like. As generations spend less time working physically and more time sitting, our diets should be moving towards far less calories. Instead, we’re being made into nothing more than consumers who click a button to have bad food delivered to us while we sit on the couch.
The only complex issue is how we got here. It’s not complex to make healthier choices. I’d argue it’s easier than what we’re doing now. To quote Michael Pollan, “eat food, not too much, mostly plants”.
If you’re ashamed for being overweight, that’s something that should motivate you to lose the weight.
You would think so, but you’d be wrong. As I said before, shaming not only doesn’t work but has the opposite effect.
As James Corden said:
If making fun of fat people made them lose weight, there’d be no fat kids in schools.
If you’re sincere in your desire to make people healthier, then shame is not the way.
If you’re only interested in a feeling of superiority, then carry on I guess.
I think that “championing body positivity” for any class of adult humans is undignified. I think that doing a special extra thing for people in order to reverse the polarity of a judgment about that aspect of them is cruelly mocking them for that aspect of them.
Perhaps there’s something about that short guy that’s actually awesome, and doesn’t require childish lies and role-playing to communicate.
If someone called me “small dick king” I would hate them forever, despite whatever positive intentions they might have had when they said it. Do not make my weakness the key point of my persona, even if you include that awkward attempt at “positivifying” it. Just call me “Intensely Human, master wordsmith” or something that’s actually positive. Don’t treat me like I’m a five year old, using keywords to remap my negative qualities into positive ones.
The whole idea of using a term, that’s special to short men, to “champion” (verbing nouns is horrible) body positivity in short men, makes me feel nauseous.
If we want to respect short men, let’s do so in action, not in word choice.
I’m a man, I’m 5’5" and I’m far beyond caring about my height. It bothered me in high school but I found out shortly after it really doesn’t matter that much if you carry yourself confidently.
That said, I’ve seen a number of other cis men find confidence in themselves by using short king self referentially and hearing people they want to date celebrate “short kings”, so it seems to be a useful term. I’ve also seen a number of trans men find it to be a confidence boosting term, combating the dysmorphia of their perceived height deficiency.
I’ll revel in such things with my friends for laughs, but, ultimately, it doesn’t do much for me, but I like seeing what it’s done for others.
It bothered me in high school but I found out shortly after it really doesn’t matter that much if you carry yourself confidently.
Which is accurate and admirable, but for those still in high school feeling bothered, wouldn’t the population of the term help them get to your head space faster? Terms of encouragement are a lot more valuable to the vulnerable than the secured.
What would help them build confidence faster is having something to be confident about. It’s hard to build confidence when you have nothing to be proud of. Complimenting actions and choices will help them. What does “short king” help with that simply “king” doesn’t? It sorta feels like you’re either saying “dude your shortness is so impressive that I’m jealous” which doesn’t make sense because that’s kind of a strange thing to be proud of, or “you’re so awesome in spite of your shortness” which is like a backhanded compliment by implying that their height is detracting from the rest of their qualities, or at the very least is calling attention to an attribute they’re self-conscious about.
It sorta feels like you’re either saying “dude your shortness is so impressive that I’m jealous” which doesn’t make sense because that’s kind of a strange thing to be proud of
It’s not something to be proud or ashamed of, it’s just a physical trait that says nothing about a persoms charcter. But tons of people feel less than or are mocked for these sorts of intrinsic traits. Consider queer people, “Pride” events aren’t about being proud of a sexuality/identity. It’s refusing to be shamed in the face of cultural taboos and social stigma, it’s about self love and acceptance than showing off something others should be jealous of.
I recall a tweet from a ways back-
sometimes you have to be a bit mentally ill to get mentally well so if thinking naruto would be proud of you for brushing your teeth is what gets you to brush your teeth well grab that toothbrush dattebayo
If calling yourself a short king lets you kick your insecurities ass well then here’s your crown my dude 👑
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It’s not bad to be fat
It objectively is and it’s a terrible comparison to being short.
Being fat is terrible for your health and will limit your chances in love. It’s not politically correct to admit it, but most people simply aren’t attracted to people that are overweight, and whilst appearances shouldn’t matter, they absolutely do.
The difference between being short and being fat is that you can’t control your height. Controlling your weight might not be fun, but you can essentially choose what weight you are.
Bullying is obviously never ok, but if you’re not ok with the idea of being called fat, then you can choose not to consistently over eat for long periods of time.
Inb4: I understand some people have severe health and mental issues that are the primary source of their obesity and I empathise hugely with these people, but most overweight people simply lack will power. Losing weight is like giving up smoking, you can want to do it, but you don’t until you say “enough is enough” and actually mean it.
I’m a relatively short guy at 5’6". My take on this is firstly that I dislike being called “king” because it sounds patronizing, especially by someone who knows nothing about me (that just feels insincere). Secondly, I’m comfortable, even happy, with my height. There have been many times I’ve been glad that I wasn’t taller. It’s kinda funny watching taller folks hitting their heads on things and complaining about cars being too small.
With my shortness being accepted by myself, someone else randomly pointing it out by explicitly calling me a “short king” in an effort to promote body positivity makes me think that in order for them to be recognizing shortness as a potentially negative trait means they likely thought of it as a negative in the past and are now patting themselves on the backs for being “enlightened” and subtly shaming others who still haven’t “evolved” to their level. It feels like less of a compliment and more of a circle jerk.
Also, I don’t feel like shortness needs any championing. Going back to the topic of obesity in the discorse of body positivity, I think it’s a great idea to treat people as people regardless of weight. But I think the implied premise stated by OP is flawed in this regard. I do think being happy with being overweight is different than being happy about being short. There are no apparent benefits to being overweight, since it generally increases risk factors in all kinds of medical issues. With this in mind, body positivity regarding weight should focus on encouraging others to lose weight without shaming them. The same is not true of being short. Besides the impossibility of people making themselves taller even if they wanted to, there’s no negative to a person’s well-being or quality of life because of it.
I can’t remember any time in my life that I’ve ever been called short as an insult either. This post just seems to be attempting to fix a non-issue. In summary, I would rather no one speak the words “short king” at all. Just go with “you’re such a badass” if you wanna give a compliment.
There have been many times I’ve been glad that I wasn’t taller. It’s kinda funny watching taller folks hitting their heads on things and complaining about cars being too small.
6’3" guy here. Every time someone says “wow you’re tall” I say that it’s not that great. 6’ is plenty to reach high shelves and stuff like that I think, but I struggle with leg room in public transport. I think that’s more annoying than needing a ladder once in a while. Also I often feel my hair touching the roof in smaller cars.
I’m a 5’7” guy and I absolutely support this kind of monarchism. God save the king.
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if you highlight a feature as “now its positive”, what you’re actually saying “normally it’s negative”
I know people mean it well and I respect that. But it’s a little indirect insult, when their first reaction is to assume that you feel bad about it and to patronize you.
Of course there are people with that mindset among short dating men who often aggressively blame women’s standards. So I try to be not too upset about it.
I’m on the tall side of average (tall to some, average to others, short to few), and to me it’s always sounded like it’s mocking short guys, and if I were short I don’t think I’d want to be called that.
As someone who is a few inches below average height where I live, I personally wouldn’t like being called a “short king”. Also, fuck those over 6 foot men for driving up the average height and unintentionally making me have an irrational annoyance because I’m short.
Oh god, this kind of moral grandstanding is just cringeworthy, let alone as a false concern for others.
It screams “I need the approval of others or I feel bad about my genetics over which I have no control”.
If someone doesn’t like how I look, oh well, that’s life. Seems this is a lesson most people learn in grade school - some people aren’t going to like you, you’re not going to like some people.
Further, if we’re talking about physical attractiveness, that’s something all over the place, and something over which we have no control.
Attraction isn’t a choice - what you do about it is.
If someone doesn’t like how I look, oh well, that’s life. Seems this is a lesson most people learn in grade school - some people aren’t going to like you, you’re not going to like some people.
You’re not entirely wrong, but you’re also totally missing the fact that people are 100% judged by stature and not just in attractiveness, but in their value period.
The taller you are, the higher salary people will assume you already are making. During hiring, this means you’ll be offered a higher starting salary to try and make the offer more appealing to you.
Here’s an article that references the study I’m thinking of. https://merryformoney.com/height-salary/ If you care ,you can maybe dig up the original study somehow.
This sort of bias is pretty inescapable in our culture and will be I think regardless of our language. Preferred body shapes do change over time, even within the span of a single generation. Maybe tying more positive words around these words is part of that change.
As far as I can tell, “body positivity” is for ugly chicks. Pretty chicks don’t need it and physical attractiveness doesn’t exist for men.
As a man, the only thing about me that matters to anyone else is what value they can extract from me, and when the answer becomes “none” I will be discarded. Doesn’t matter if a man looks like the inside of a kidney as long as he can pick up the check. Everything else about you is irrelevant.
I don’t think most women are that cynical. Like do transactional relationships exist? Absolutely, but I don’t think that’s the majority of them and you probably don’t want that kind of relationship anyways.
In fact, in my experience, women are typically made uncomfortable when I try to insist on paying for the entire bill on a date.
I think for a lot of women, it’s as simple as, “am I comfortable and do I have fun when I’m hanging out with this guy?”.
But at the end of the day, women are not a monolith that all think and act the same. Just as men are not a monolith that all think and act the same. So it is unwise to assume all women want the same things out of a relationship.
Yeah here’s the thing about the women who just want to “be comfortable and have fun”…life has a way of becoming not comfortable or fun sometimes. Call up Little Miss “He makes me laugh” and tell her you’ve had a table saw accident and you need her to drive you to the hospital. See how much longer she sticks around.
I had a girl break up with me once because I said to her “I think I need to go to the dentist.” Like the next words she said to me were “I don’t think this is going to work out.” Whatever we were, it certainly wasn’t “friends.” Turns out I was right, I’ve got a polymer bicuspid now.
The women who want to be around you because you’re fun will walk out of the theater the second they’re no longer enjoying the show. It’s about what value they can extract from you. Always is.
Brother, these are super bizarre examples, and do not match my experience as a man whatsoever.
My past partners (and current too) absolutely would drive me to the hospital, even those with whom I just had a casual and completely financially independent relationship with. I even had an experience pretty similar to this in the past.
How does your world view account for relationships where the woman makes more money than the man?
Seems like somebody hurt you.
How does your world view account for relationships where the woman makes more money than the man?
It is my understanding that these relationships are rare because of how many women categorically reject them, and relationships that didn’t start out that way up but get there via promotions/layoffs whatever are on borrowed time or doomed.
Edit: what genre of music do you think Polymer Bicuspid would play? Would they be whatever blarp techno shit Freezepop is?
Do you personally view relationships that way? Transactional? In my experience there is a whole range of people when it comes to how much money matters to them, and seeing it as black and white is really limiting your options.
You remember back in high school or college, there was that group of friends that you always hung out with, you saw eye to eye with, you knew them, they knew you, you’d get a phone call at 2 in the morning, one of them is beside the road with a flat tire and you’re who they called, so of course you go help? Like they don’t ask because it’s not a question, it’s what you do, you’d do it for them, they’d do it for you?
First they stop texting you first but they’ll reply when you text them. Then they stop replying. Then you stop reaching out. Then you delete their number. Then you get a text “Hey you still drive that truck?” By my mid-20’s, there were none left.
Few mechanisms exist to meet new people beyond college, few people ever exchange contact details, of those that do, few answer the first time. I live in a town, lots of people live next door, across the street, down the block. None have introduced themselves.
Oh and “romances.” So called. After the college sowing oats phase, in my actual adulthood, the one-night stands and short term flings were always 100% healthier than any attempt at long term romantic relationships. Communication…happened. “Here’s what I expect, here’s how long I want this to last, here are my deal breakers,” etc. I will trade you one licked clitoris for one sucked penis. Deal, who goes first? Both simultaneously? No i prefer to be on my back. Okay, I’ll do you then you do me. Great, let’s go. That right there is 100% transactional, you could write it as a legal contract with consideration, terms and conditions. Anyone where you’d change your relationship status on Facebook for? No can’t have that; that’s beneath them. What ensues is 4 months of we go out on whatever dates I can come up with, ball is always in my court, she never knows what she wants, we have plenty of sex, but I almost always initiate, then about 2 months of vetos, shorter answers and "not tonight"s, then a week of “I hate that place” and “that’s all you think about” and then it’s done. She apparently wanted something from me, she was not willing to directly tell me what it was, preferring instead to see if she could get it by pretending to be my #1 groupie for a few months and then getting very resentful and angry when that didn’t work. I’m not trying that again.
Do I personally view relationships as “transactional?” Yes, by derivation from first principles. Ask the question “Just what the fuck are relationships even for, anyway?” And the stock answer is “humans are highly social animals and they require interactions with other humans for their mental health” and, like, the very basic concept of a “relationship” is the mutual fulfilling of that need. “I will trade you one ‘you heard someone’s voice today say something not about work’, in exchange for one ‘I heard someone’s voice today say something not about work’.”
My first thought on writing that was “21st century wedding vows if ever I heard them.” I was once broken up with for saying “I think I need to go to the dentist” so “to have and to hold in sickness and in health” is apparently out of the question.
physical attractiveness doesn’t exist for men.
How long did it take to convince yourself of that one, haahaha
It’s obvious having ever met people.
What is? The lack of any differentiation on physical attraction between males?
Are you sure you’re not just deluding yourself that that doesn’t exist since you don’t like the position you’d fall into?
You’re saying there’s no difference in physical attractiveness between Brad Pitt and someone like this man?
Brad Pitt isn’t a real attractive man, he only plays one in movies. I’m sure both Angelina Jolie and Jennifer Anniston both told him his dick was both huge and tiny depending on how mad they were at him, and both of them lied both times.
You can believe in Russel’s Teapot as much as you want, even if it is true, which it obviously isn’t, it can’t possibly matter. Anyone who calls you handsome, who says they want to fuck you, who says they like you for who you are? They are lying to manipulate you. No one will ever like you for any reason. They will only pretend to like you so they can get money, things and chores from you. “That’s not true my wife genuinely loves me” Break your spine, lose your job and spend the rest of your life in a wheelchair, see how much longer she “loves you for who you are.”
So you’re saying there is ZERO DIFFERENCE in physical attractiveness between the two pictures I posted?
Jesus you’re bitter. You should look into psychedelic assisted therapy.
They will only pretend to like you so they can get money, things and chores from you.
I’ve been offered money to have sex with women, several times.
Weird how they’ve given me money, things and done my chores if they only want those things from me, huh?The reason you feel that way is that you’re a bitter misogynist who writes things like “that’s for ugly chicks”, while actively pretending attractiveness in men doesn’t exist so you don’t have to face being an “ugly chick” yourself.
Yeah, it’s true golddiggers exist, but if you stop being such a massive cunt you might one who isn’t.
But that’s all in your future, as I’m pretty positive I’m talking to a teenager who’s annoyed that his crush liked the boy with the more expensive phone or a newer vehicle of some sort, something to that effect.
You’ll get over it.
Give the second man the first man’s cosmetic surgery budget and they’d bear a striking resemblance. Or he could just pay people to call him whatever he wants to be called. I mean, Donald Trump has ever gotten laid. Whether attractiveness or repulsiveness in men exists, it doesn’t matter because no one uses it for anything.
Women’s worth is based on their physical appearance. Ugly women are worth less as people than pretty women, which is why “body positivity” is only ever mentioned by lumpy misshapen women and corporate advertising firms who want to sell them cosmetics. Men are not worth anything in and of themselves; their value is found in that they own and control. That’s how the world actually works, and hippy bullshit like “all lives matter” will never change that. NO LIVES MATTER, least of all yours and mine.
Give the second man the first man’s cosmetic surgery budget and they’d bear a striking resemblance
So you admit that there IS a difference in their physical attractiveness, which means that such a thing does exist, meaning you admit you said something you don’t actually believe in.
My point exactly.
Don’t worry, the bitterness of having crushed so hard on a person you didn’t even manage to talk to will fade when you grow up. Well, hopefully you do at some point at least. I don’t know how ugly you are, but it can’t be much uglier than your rhetoric. I suspect you keep reading some of the “tips” of others (internally and externally) ugly guys like whathisface who’s locked up in Romania.
You have a great deal of value outside of how much money you make there are people out there interested in those qualities. I’m sorry you haven’t noticed them yet, but they are out there. Try to keep an open mind and an open heart and you may find them and they find you sooner than you think.
My hourly rate for day labor is $40/hr. I will not give you anything or do anything for you for free.
You know damn well that’s not what I meant and also that’s far too low these days, you should ask for more.
Hey you’re the perfect stranger asserting I have “value” despite having no possible idea what it might be. You might as well have said “Jesus loves you.” It would be equally untrue and I’d know whose bullshit you’re trying to get me to buy.
Lmao what trite contrarian bullshit, you yourself asserted your high value in this same comment thread.
Get over yourself.
I make more btw, cheers!
