A lot of millennials learned more IT skills due to user unfriendly operating systems, whereas a lot of GenZ don’t have as much exposure to that, due to phones being way more capable and having OS’s being more user friendly and locked down.
Millennials remember when video games weren’t pay to win.
The digital landscape is so different. I teach undergraduates and it’s hit or miss whether they understand what a file path is. But honestly, I’m not sure it will be relevant in the same way for much longer. I grew up installing games from CD and establishing a specific file path and folder for install and if I did it wrong it wouldn’t work. With GUI’s becoming more simple and intuitive, combined with advances in machine learning and algorithmic design, I have no problem imagining a future where all file structures are transparent to the user.
Imagine an AI llm combined with an OS file search. Like “two years ago I was playing Skyrim and I installed a lot of mods, and I think one of them turned all the dragons into Kirby. Where was the installer for that mod?”
And then your computer is like “I gotcha bro, here’s the installer right here.”
That’d be pretty cool. But then again it’d probably also go “I’ll go ahead and install it for you. And hey, while I’m at it I know you’re gonna love this ad tracking program that paid M$ a few million dollars for your info, so Imma install that too. If you’d rather not install it, feel free to find your files and run the installer yourself”
Feel free to build your own computer from sand and charcoal. You’re totally free to do things your own way so long as you don’t use our platform, and don’t forget We Own Everything Already ™. You’re welcome to start your own village on another planet somewhere and take all the sand you need. But you can’t use our rockets to get there.
That’s funny I’d call that opaque not transparent.
I certainly don’t like that there are browsers that hide the full URL. That’s a key part of safe browsing in my opinion: watching the domain name and the parameters. Like, if the link doesn’t point to a domain you trust be careful with it you know? But you can’t know that if it’s not showing link targets or if the URL is obfuscated
I initially wrote “opaque” and then second guessed myself, got confused, and refused to look up the correct use.
It’s opaque.
I teach undergraduates and it’s hit or miss whether they understand what a file path is.
I provide tech support to Linux sysadmins and it’s still hit or miss whether they understand what a file path is.
It was ridiculous how long it was abstracted away on iOS for so long (took forver to get the Files app, lots of random third party nonsense)
Linux, servers, the cloud is still using the terminal.
This sounds like millennials version of they can’t do cursive
Millennials remember when video games weren’t pay to win.
And Gen X’ers remember when they WERE. 😂
More like pay-to-play!
Yes, the early days when games where literally 10 bucks an hour to play.
I miss you, Cyberstrike and Airwarrior.
So do millennials. There were a lot of really popular arcade beat ‘em ups in the 90’s. People claiming to be millennials who deny that are lying about one thing or another.
A subscription to Nintendo Power didn’t count.
They’re referring to arcades
I could actually see that being a good argument, even though they were talking about arcades
We also remember when most video games involved having a finite number of lives and having to start over completely if you lost them all.
Some games are like this today, but not many. Back in the day it was the basic assumption of every video game. Based off arcade games. And it seemed so natural.
And finite lives was bad. Like super Mario world on the snes. The only penalty for running out of lives was that you start at the beginning of the level and not at the checkpoint.
Before they had saved game state they had “warp codes” that you’d enter to start the game at a later point than the beginning.
Mega Man X Password theme plays with vigor
Arcade games or handheld or video games didn’t have any storage. Even on old home computers if you’d want to program in a save feature, you’d need to instruct the user to change to a fresh cassette for save. Then back to the game tape for reloading the game. And rewind and find the save on top of that to load.
It took a long time before floppies became ubiquitous, even longer for hard disks.
Man, I remember when games were as simple as
- Power on
- Play game
Millennials remember when video games weren’t pay to win.
You mean like arcade beat ‘em ups that are near impossible to complete on one credit? Or Gauntlet, where you literally got more health just from inserting coins?
Wrong generation man. Millenials grew up with consoles and PCs. They don’t game in arcades as much as the MTV generation.
What range do you consider millennials?
Oldest millennials were born in early 80s? So when they are at the gaming age it would be in the 90s, during the era of the console boom.
If you were primarily the arcade-trotting group you’d have to be a kid or teen in the 80s which puts you in Gen X.
You speak with such authority, and yet, I know you are not a millennial. A millennial would know that arcades were white-hot in the 90’s. Have you ever heard of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles? Turtles in Time? The Simpsons? X-Men? All those Neo Geo games? There was also this game called…um, street something…streets of fighting? Street Kombat? Mortal Fighter? Street Fighter? I think they made a second one of those, too. Shoot, where did that come out originally? It’s escaping me right now. It’ll come to me eventually.
Edit: I’m re-reading your post; and you contradict yourself. You say people born in the early 80’s are millennials, but if you were a kid in the 80’s that makes you gen x? Do you not know how math works? Someone born in the early 80’s would be a kid during the 80’s.
Anyway, the more I think about it, the more “arcade games weren’t popular in the 90’s” seems like one of the top 5 dumbest takes I have ever read on the internet.
Have you ever heard of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles? Turtles in Time? The Simpsons? X-Men? All those Neo Geo games? There was also this game called…um, street something…streets of fighting? Street Kombat? Mortal Fighter? Street Fighter?
Yes and most if not all of those landed on console too. Your point?
I’m not saying that arcades are unsuccessful in the 90s. I’m saying for millennials, the notion of video games had shifted from primarily arcade to primarily console due to the console boom in the 90s, thus supporting OP’s point that Millenials should remember a time when games are not pay-to-win.
You say people born in the early 80’s are millennials, but if you were a kid in the 80’s that makes you gen x? Do you not know how math works? Someone born in the early 80’s would be a kid during the 80’s.
What are you on about? These generations are defined by date ranges and not something I made up. So yes, it is entirely possible that the oldest of the old Millennials might be arcade crawling at age 8 or 9 in the 80s, but a whole bunch more of them are still in diapers or not even born yet. Make sense?
Yes and most if not all of those landed on console too. Your point?
What’s your point? If a game came out on console, it doesn’t matter that it was ever an arcade game?
I’m saying for millennials, the notion of video games had shifted from primarily arcade to primarily console due to the console boom in the 90s
Speaking as millennial in the 90’s, this is untrue. I, and most of my millennial friends played games on consoles, in arcades, and even on PC! If a game came out in arcades, and later came to consoles, it is still an arcade game. It doesn’t suddenly not become an arcade game because it’s been released elsewhere.
Also, do you seriously not know about Street Fighter 2? This is the biggest takeaway that you are not a millennial. The 90’s had a HUGE arcade boom with fighting games. Arcades were filled with fighting games, and the most popular games would have multiple units and still have long lines of people waiting to play. This was a huge part of gaming in the 90’s as millennials. There’s a reason why people wanted to play Street Fighter 2 so much when it came out on SNES: it was already extremely popular in arcades! At this point I feel like you are deliberately trying to troll, and like the idiot I am, I’m just taking the bait.
thus supporting OP’s point that Millenials should remember a time when games are not pay-to-win.
Again, I am a millennial who played beat ‘em ups in arcades a lot. They were very popular Those games are straight up pay to win. Yes they came out on consoles too, but a) those versions weren’t as good, therefore b) the arcade versions were still more popular
These generations are defined by date ranges and not something I made up.
Whoops! My bad. Millennials started in 1981 and I was born in 1980. Guess I was never a millennial after all except the years keep changing and I’ve seen start dates of 1980, 1979, and 1978 as well. It’s hard to keep track when the date keeps changing.
So yes, it is entirely possible that the oldest of the old Millennials might be arcade crawling at age 8 or 9 in the 80s
Ok, now I gotta ask; are you an alien? Because most human children begin walking within the first 2 years. 8 or 9 year olds usually don’t need to crawl
but a whole bunch more of them are still in diapers or not even born yet.
Hmm, it’s almost like the experiences of everyone with a generation aren’t all exactly the same.
does setting up virtual machine count
Millennials generally had hope and lost it.
Gen Z never had any hope.
Millennials grew up in the 90s, possibly one of the “best” decades in modern history: good economy, closest we’ve gotten to “world peace,” comparative political stability and “quiet” (the biggest scandal in US politics was Monica Lewinsky), and problems existed but generally seemed to be getting better with time not worse. The 90s were an optimistic time, especially considering the snowballing disaster of a 21st century that followed.
Edit: also advancements in science and technology were bright and exciting, without the constant existential dread of “what calamity have we unleashed this time?” The biggest tech/science-advancement ethical debate I remember was about cloning people, which is a genuine sci-fi-esque moral quandary but ended up being generally moot in reality.
Yeah, but us millennials were only teenagers at best, toddlers at the youngest. Not really enough time to do anything with it. So while we got to experience a cool time in our youths, we had it all ripped away as soon as the .com bubble burst, and then 9/11 hit, along with other mixed events, like the Unabomber, Columbine, etc. We were also the first in line to get sent to Afghanistan.
Meanwhile Gen X got to live their adult lives during the 90s and make a name for themselves.
Sure, some aspects of the 00s were shit, but that felt like a bump in the road: things were still on the up-and-up overall, and the general expectation was that we could change the future for the better, resolve the world’s issues, and live better lives than our parents. That all came crashing down sometime around 2010 with the Great Recession, failure of Occupy, and realization that Obama wasn’t the knight in shining armor we’d literally hoped for. So the difference is that Millennials remember a pre-9/11 world and the less-great-but-still-hopeful early 00s, whereas Gen Z doesn’t.
Someone recently asked why the devil admitted he’d lost the fiddling match with Johnny. They said “If he’s the devil why didn’t he just claim he’d won?”.
I’d never asked myself that before. It had never occurred to me that the devil might cheat in a contest.
It made me realize that the dominant view of how people operate has changed in our culture. We now tend to assume people are slimeballs. The shittiest, back-stabbiest, most underhanded dishonest stuff now seems like normal behavior. Not even consciously necessarily. We just assume everyone is a barely-held-together antihero just looking for an excuse to take the gloves off and do nasty shit, and that we’re only good to our tight inner circle while it’s okay to treat the rest of the world like garbage.
It’s our zeitgeist. I’m finally starting to grok that word’s meaning, after having lived through four decades.
This is beside your point but a related question to the first part is, why does Satan punish bad people? Shouldn’t he appreciate that about them?
God punishes them. Satan just does his job.
I thought Satan was a rebel. Now he’s just an employee?
Satan doesn’t punish. Satan’s whole job is temptation. Anyone tempted would technically be punished by god.
I assume the mixup has to be resultant of the constant game of religious Telephone. Not really surprising. It’s pretty awkward to frame your spotless savior who is the living embodiment of Love as also doing deliberate premeditated torture, even when it’s written right there. And comparatively simple to expect it from someone who’s supposed to embody unpleasantness.
What’s hell all about, then? I always understood from Christian theology that it was a place controlled by Satan where Bad People are tortured for an infinite amount of time after death.
Oh yeah I don’t disagree that gen z is fucked
I’d say that we’re all fucked. There’s going to be at least one global population correction in the next century. Even if we are able to push it back through mitigation, new development, geoengineering, luck and pluck, the zoomers are going to see it by midlife and everyone’s life will be defined by it the way Dresden hit Kurt Vonnegut.
How much of a name did you make for yourself by 22?
At least where I live as a millennial you could have had a really nice childhood - until you finished school. Most struggled to find a job. Businesses would hire you as unpaid intern at best, etc. All while your parents (the boomers) expected you to have house, car and family in your twenties.
The 90s were the calm before the storm.
Our biggest environmental worry was landfills growing to cover the entire planet. We were all convinced this was our fate and that we had to recycle everything mainly to protect ourselves from having to live on ever-expanding waste dumps.
I thought we gen X were the youngsters in the nineties :-)
This is generally what I came to say, except to add that Gen Z is giving me (old millennial) some hope. We were frogs in the pot, but it’s a rolling boil and zoomers like Greta, David Hogg, and the 12 year old who interrupted COP28 seem alright.
Ultimately, I’m determined to break the cycle of previous Gen calls current Gen lazy. These kids are alright and I wish we had left them better.
I don’t think they’re lazy but I do think they’re paranoid and cynical. Perhaps understandably, but not helpfully.
I thought you were saying this about Millennials and Gen X and I was going to agree, ha. Understandably but not helpfully apathetic
I at least feel like millennials have been so relentlessly screwed by older generations and the portion of ours who got lucky that it’s not our fault.
Am millenial. Can confirm the first part.
That hope died 9/11/2001.
2008 financial crisis ripped the last vaneer off.
The rich won’t be allowed to lose. The whole system is bullshit. You can do everything right, get sick cuz fuknature, have to sell everything off for medicine and still die, younger than you should, in debt and penniless. It’s not even necessary, the Cruelty is the point. That’s capitalism. It’s about control, and capitalists need to be looked at like they have a mental illness. Most our jobs are bullshit and don’t matter. The national debt doesn’t matter. Money isn’t real, it’s a vehicle for resource allocation, not a store of value, but try getting someone not ready to hear that to even think about our social systems as something mutable and not organic or ordained. Nope. Society was designed, by people, and it’s working exactly as it’s intended, which is, fucking great for them and fuck everyone else.
At the end of the day, your physical body has had just one goal. Survive. Everything I have to do to achieve that end is justified by existence itself. Building a system that puts itself in the way of people simply surviving is building a system to fail. When it comes to politics, and by that I mean, do-whatever-you-want-as-long-as-it-doesn’t-hurt-someone-else and then policies, and for policy I just ask “is this the best we can do?”
I don’t think I see the best we can do anywhere.
Do you think that society was designed by people who are alive today?
We have a living constitution, a living body of law. Current laws have been bought and paid for, just like judges, representatives, senators…
The deviation from where we started to where we are was a process of the living and still is for today’s legislators, or more accurately, today’s lobbyists who actually craft the laws and have them at the rest in case the Overton window moves to the point they’re feasible.
I grew up dirt poor out in the woods. I never had hope.
Dirt poor Boomers could get lucky. Xers were taught we could escape our heritage through hard work and pluck, and some of us were credulous.
Millennials knew it was BS.
I still work hard because it’s an antidote to despair and depression. It’s a necessity but it does not lead to material reward.
What was that like?
Extremely depressing, socially isolating, psychologically warping. I’m a responsible, intelligent, ambitious person, but I’m not a functioning human. I’m severely and permanently damaged by poverty, even though I grew up in Canada. I’m 40 but I just managed to start a career about two years ago because I’m borderline unemployable and emotionally unbalanced (I worked my ass off at careers for 20 years, and utterly failed, constant burnout and humiliation, social assistance, moving back into a parents’ tiny apartment). I work remotely which is the only way I can ever hope to maintain a steady job. I can’t maintain normal relationships because I was largely denied social interaction growing up, and my brain can’t cope with social things now. I stopped trying to force myself to learn because it was literally decades of torture that didn’t work. People keep telling me I’m autistic but all the doctors say “nope, you’re just fucked up” (actually they use words like “personality disorder” and PTSD and anxiety disorders and ADHD and other stuff. I have a long list of diagnoses for which no treatment was offered except pills which mostly don’t work, although I’ll admit that ADHD meds helped me get a bunch of work done and also straightened out my brain a little bit. I don’t take them anymore but the positive effects are still with me).
Now, it looks like I’m doing a lot of complaining here. But in truth I’m just describing my “no hope” landscape. Hope sounds like poison. I have things to do, and right now I have a pretty good life.
Yeah that sounds a lot like my current life. I’m 41, broke, can’t keep a job, socializing is painful, country upbringing. Whatever happened in my childhood did something like that to me.
But I was asking what it was like, not so much what outcomes did it have on your adult life. If it’s too painful to relive it you don’t have to, but I was curious. What was it like, when you were a kid?
We moved around a lot, almost always rural. I had a big family so they were always a close crew, but also always very strained and stressed. We had a Nintendo and bicycles. I usually had friends around until I was 11, but then we literally just moved out into the forest where there was nobody else. For 7 awful years I was like in a prison. I lost the ability to communicate, but not the desire. I dreaded the summers because I knew I wouldn’t see a single person outside my family. My parents were constantly stressed, always on a sour mood. The forest was hard on them too. I would mostly try to entertain my siblings amd read books. Depression became the biggest feature of my life. There was just nobody. Then I would go back to school in the fall and I didn’t know how to communicate anymore, and was constantly sad and lonely. But I denied those feelings because I didn’t want to be a bitch.
My very young life was awesome. Until I was maybe 7 or 8 we always had tons of family and friends around, including when we lived in rural villages. We were poor but so was everybody else. But we had to keep moving to chase work, and I always lost those relationships. And then as I described above we moved out to the absolute woods and my brain started to rot. I really have no idea what “hope” could even have looked like.
There were good times too. My siblings and I would explore the forest. We followed a river up a mountain until there was no river anymore (its weird to see it getting smaller and smaller until there’s nothing). We built sledding tracks. We found an abandoned cemetery from the 1700s just in the middle of the forest.
Mostly I just read books. And that’s still what I do.
Thank you for talking online. It might not appear to be much, but it is. You’re connecting and communicating your pain. Hopefully we merry chums can take on some of the burden you feel. Keep going; this is your one shot and it doesn’t have to be noteworthy to anyone but yourself.
Hey man. Thanks. I’m doing well, I’m just countering the idea that millennials en masse had something called “hope.”
I work in IT support, and I have for longer than I’d like to admit. I’m on the very early edge of millennial. I was born a few years after the generation “started”. My older brother was on the transition between millennial and gen X and my oldest sibling was very gen X. My parents were part of the prior two generations (boomers etc), and I tend to work along side and for all sorts of people from all of these generations.
Earlier than gen X, eg boomers and older, are usually technology adverse, they don’t like change. I find many are kind of “set in their ways”. Of course there are exceptions to the rule, but they seem to be fairly rare. They like to do things using methods that are tried and true, but often reluctantly agree to use computers instead of paper because that’s what others are doing. Even so, they’re fairly adverse to updates and changes that modify how things get done. They have money, and you can’t have any of it. Often, they have little understanding of the problems faced with current generations, likely because they did not have the same challenges, and despite their stories of “back in my day” about how hard things were for them, they actually had it rather easy in terms of cashflow and buying power. They made less, sure, but when they were able to buy a mid sized, single family, fully detached home for the same dollar value as a “cheap” car costs now, their money went much farther (around $20k).
Gen X is kind of lost. What I mean is that they don’t really have too many traits that stand out. As far as I can see, they’re hyper independent, mostly riding the coat tails of the bombers economically, so, while they didn’t have it quite as easy as boomers did (despite what boomers might think/say), it also wasn’t significantly harder for them. They were mostly able to follow a fairly typical life path, get an education (HS/college/uni), get a career, buy a house, have a family (if desired). Politically, from what I’ve seen, gen X is the most diverse group and they’re usually following along with whatever is regionally popular. Not because it’s popular, but because they’re surrounded by it. From what I’ve seen this group is the most adaptable to their neighboring community, mostly just trying to fit in and not be bothered. Right now they’re a large part of working professionals.
Millennials are usually post college, debt laden individuals that are just tired. They were trying to kick-start their lives in some of the craziest times imaginable. Many early millennials who were able to quickly move through the education system, and immediately get into a career and the housing market follow more along the lines of gen X. If you were held back for any reason or you were caught up in a situation that held you back, you shared fate with many of the later millennials. The majority of millennials were caught up in every economic crisis short of a complete collapse of the money system during the years that they should have been starting their careers. Homes rose in price swiftly and vehicles didn’t lag far behind. Driven by sheer determination to succeed, many accrued significant debt that they just want to balance out. This group is the most technically malleable and can adapt to most technology changes in the shortest time. Growing up on landlines and home PC’s/consoles/electronics that all significantly changed their designs, capabilities and interfaces every 4-5 years. Many seem to be problem solvers and want to be helpful/useful. Many have, and some still do, hold onto the ideal that their contribution should be impactful. Most just want to be acknowledged and told they’re doing well, while making enough to pay their bills and debts. For many the dream of owning a home is dying or dead. Renters, car owners, debt holders. They’re growing rather jaded about it as they get older.
Gen Z have their own language. Millennials did too but mostly in cultural memes, with the zoomers, it’s less cultural reference and more of a short hand derived from cultural references. Things that on their own, don’t make any sense and are not even full sentences in any way shape or form. They follow in the aftermath of the economic crisises of millennials and have many of the same economic challenges. Many of those challenges are simply more severe. Prices are higher than ever, buying power is at an all time low. Surrounded by toxic “hustle” culture and many seem to want nothing to do with that. Many find humor in randomness and unexpected happenstance rather than traditional subversion of expectation as humor. They’re quickly becoming the most socially aware and active generation, and want change. Technologically growing up on iPhones and Androids rather than home PC’s, many are not very adaptable to changes in technology though zoomers are one of the highest use groups for the technology. They use it, they don’t really understand it very well, so when things break, even if they’re only non fictional in their current state, things are replaced rather than fixed. Eg, if their iPhone is too slow, rather than trying to find out why or trying to fix the issue, better to simply upgrade to whatever apple is currently pushing. Due to this, they needlessly spend more money than their older generation counterparts. This is by design by the actions of corporations, fostering a single use, replace, not repair mentality. They’re not lazy or lacking in motivation at all, despite appearances that may show a lack of success, instead the lack of success is driven by an inability to find adequate employment that will pay enough to allow them to prosper. The majority will be “held back” from the “typical” life path of education > career > home ownership > family, because of their inability to prosper due to high prices and low wages.
Overall, through the generations there has been a decline in community as a function of geography, and an increase in community as a function of shared interest, mainly due to the growing and universal access to the internet. The internet has allowed both good and bad to be accessible at a moment’s notice. This has shortened the tolerance to delays and given a sense of urgency to even the most trivial and mundane of requests. With the immediate response available from growing internet connectivity, demand for more frequent, more detailed updates from everything has grown significantly, eroding confidence in others to fulfill their obligations unless they communicate that “we’re doing things” (so to speak). Even something as simple as ordering take out or having things shipped, if there is no tracking and reporting, then it might as well not be happening.
Over all, IMO, the problems faced by the current generations tend to be more centered around artificial issues created by corporations. They want to pay less, earn more, and overall turn a larger and larger profit. This is neither surprising, nor helpful to most. It does however explain the single use, replace rather than fix, nature of things that has been growing. The rise in rental vs ownership has increased the cost of living and is on track to build a service-based lifestyle where personal ownership doesn’t happen. Everything is provided for a “low” recurring fee, which has so significantly outpaced any rise in wage that most will be unable to accrue any amount of savings.
For me, all of this has made it very clear what future we’re in store for, and bluntly, it’s not very pleasant. Perpetual home rental, no personal ownership of vehicles (you simply tap a button on your phone and if one is available, it will arrive for you to use, little more than a taxi service), video, audio and other media will be rental only, streaming over the internet, which is a monthly service fee. This leads to near zero ability for customization of your lifestyle. You have no choice in terms of the appliances and devices you use, the car you drive, your home’s design… The list goes on. So if you want or need something different, you’re completely out of luck. Conform or die.
I tend to agree with your summary of the generations, but my experience in life sounds largely similar to yours, so some obvious bias there. The future you paint feels almost inevitable, and I hate every bit of it. Yet I can’t find any reasonably effective way to change it.
I’m an early gen Z, I’m 25 right now, and have been on the job market for 8 years so far.
I’m tired, I’m overworked, I’m stressed, I’m looking for upward mobility in my domain but every company is making cutbacks, withholding bonuses and holding pay increases.
I’m a software developer. I’m working a main job and freelancing on the side to make ends meet, and it’s still not enough.
I invest in my future with things like RRSP and FHSAs, I have some luxuries (small car, a dog because what is life if it’s completely miserable?), and it hurts every time I get a necessity because everything goes to rent, food, clothing, etc. and grocery bills are always close to $200 for 2 people, even at the cheaper grocery stores.
Everything’s down on quality, nothing lasts, so we either have to buy things over and over, or save up a ton of money to pay luxury prices for a decent product that won’t break the very fucking second the warranty expires.
We’re getting gouged as much as possible. My group is particular because we started our careers slightly before or during the 2020 pandemic, where companies learned that they could gouge the fuck out of everyone on necessities, and people starting out fresh are hit the hardest as they don’t have savings or mature investments.
I promise you, I have no savings nor investments, mature or otherwise.
I completely understand where you’re coming from. I’ve long considered that the next generation is going to be royalty screwed. Millennials are not doing great. I know many that are struggling, but gen z didn’t even get a chance.
Give your dog some pets for me and I hope things get better soon… Or the government collapses under the insurmountable weight of all the bribery that’s going on.
Definitely as a millennial I’m of the last generation that will remember arranging to meet up somewhere in advance and sticking to that plan (or rearranging over landline with more than a day’s notice…)
But something I’ve noticed when I ask people in my team what their dream jobs are the younger people tend to say ‘run their own businesses’, ‘work for themselves’ etc. Whereas in our generation (in my circles anyway) that definitely wasn’t so prominent. Maybe a side effect of seeing influencers making it big?
Just spitballing here, but the “dream job” question might also come down to the destruction of the middle class (and the recognition thereof). 20 years ago it looked a lot more like you could make a good living working for someone else, doing something interesting. Plus there was more trust that employers would “do right” by their employees. There were pensions and quality healthcare benefits.
Now all that (and the security it brings) has dissolved. It may not be Gen Z people wanting to make it big or be a celebrity, but a desire to live comfortably and seeing that they can’t trust an employer to let them do that. If the only way you can build security for yourself is by building a big pile of money, then people are going to seek that out.
Edit: and when I say that “20 years ago” these things existed, I don’t mean that they were still functioning like they did another generation earlier, but it was way better than it is now and there was less awareness of what was happening.
Also a lot harder for them to get jobs. It wasn’t non-trivial for a lot of millenials either to much economic and mental desperation.
I mean yeah, I’ve been unemployed for a significant part of my working life. I guess you can also add to my list being the last generation encouraged to get a degree by well meaning parents and teachers at school ‘because it will guarantee you getting a job for life’.
I remember those times, those were the before or early cell phones times, where like half the people carried a phone. You would be at the restaurant wondering if Jon would ever show because he is kind of a flake… then Donny would suggest calling Jackie because she has a cellphone and is always with Jon, but then none of it matters because Donny’s phone is shit because he has T-Mobile which doesn’t yet have coverage in this part of the country, so he just carries it as a status symbol.
Maybe a direct effect of making work environment as toxic as possible through adverse management practices and work organisation.
Working conditions became a true hell during these last 20 years.
I think besides having better tech literacy, millennials also tend to be much more cynical about the state of the world. There is only so much you can take of taking the blame for ending the good old days while being called lazy and entitled before you get sick and tired of it all. Hell, you can see that in this very thread of some of us project our own cynicism onto Gen Z.
I don’t see that doomerism we millennials have in most of Gen Z. While we grew up in a world where we resigned to the fact that everything is getting worse, they grew up in a world where things are already terrible, and they think it needs to be fixed, and I have high hopes for them.
And I am so sick and tired of being sick and tired of everything, all the time. So I decided to change.
I’ve definitely caught myself in the doom attitude. But I’ve been waiting for 30 years to for enough reinforcements to fight a winning fight against the boomers and their many terrible ideas. Here they are. Every millennial still able to fight, its back the the trenches. Our allies have the energy to push our fight through the doom, millennials and gen z together.
(And a huge thank you to the few boomers fighting along side us.)
There’s no fight. No battle. It’s just people trying to get by day to day. “Boomers” are not a nation, they’re just another way to split up people trying to get by so one group can justify being shitty to another. Rich and powerful people are happy to promote anything that keeps us divided and conquered. Wars have leaders and strategies and clear lines drawn. The “generational war” is just rats fighting over a piece of cheese dropped by the rich and powerful looking for amusement.
The only war is class war
I think that will change as they spend more time in the real world. I was full of hope and dreams when I left high school too, but it’s long faded away.
Marketing Exec here. I specialise in generation segmentation. I wrote this recently for my employer:
Gen-Z
Are recession learned, young, with low disposable income and low income. They are in education, are career starters and living at home.
They are lonely, single, and spend 10 hours p/day online (hyper online consumption / always logged in) with the least attention to ads. They are engaged in people-discussing-products-and-services, prefer information over ads, and use ad blockers.
Otherwise known as ‘digital natives’, Gen-Z are highly socially consciousness (body image, cyberbullying, mental health) and highly environmentally conscious. They have a strong focus on saving and responsible spending and are quite frugal. They are study and career minded and prefer money over perks and benefits in employment. They dislike having their time wasted. They have a low attention span.
Millennials
Have long-term debt (mortgage/car/student loan) and have young children. They are not at full purchasing power, are the most adaptable generation ever to pre-and post-technology, are delayed in marriage, delayed in independence, and came of age through globalisation and economic rollercoasters.
They prefer texting/messaging, are high use smartphone users, and sleep with their phone. They are the most active and health conscious generation, environmentally conscious, and the highest consumers of web content. Learning is more compelling than buying to Millennials as they spend an average of 4 hours p/day online or with phone/apps. They prefer advisors, advice, and opinions over a corporate story. They prefer sharing economy (access not ownership). Prefer e-commerce as entertainment.
Millennials are impatient, have reduced brand loyalty, and are extremely tech savvy. They are researchers of ideas, thoughtful and seeking expertise, and love to collaborate and help companies or causes achieve. Online they use acronyms, slang, and respond to authentic but complex language. They prefer honesty and being empowered. They are price aware.
nods
As an older Zoomer myself, your description of Gen Z fits me to a T
It’s tough to generalize, but I think you did a good job here.
[Gen Z] have a strong focus on saving and responsible spending and are quite frugal.
I feel like the general stereotype is the opposite, that they’re big spenders without much regard for saving (or at least they’re spending what they can given their broke-youngster financial situation). I’m curious why you say the opposite is true?
I’m curious why you say the opposite is true?
Because it is true within the generational cohort. No disrespect, but I’m not looking at you and your mates. I’m looking at mass populations.
I think you misunderstood me. Let me try again.
I don’t personally know many people who are Gen Z (I’m a Millennial, and most people I know are Millennials, Xers, or Boomers). So most of what I “know” of Zoomers comes from things I’ve read, either social media conversations like this one or news articles/thought pieces. The impression I’ve gleaned from those is that Zoomers are not frugal: they’re Apple customers, chronic online shoppers (often for products like fast fashion that are individually cheap but quickly add up), and are spending big on experiences like travel and concerts. For example, another comment in the thread asserts that “[Zoomers] needlessly spend more money than their older generation counterparts [on technology because they replace rather than repair].”
Now I take these types of demographic assumptions with a grain of salt, especially having witnessed all the nonsense articles and conclusions made about my generation. However there is some logic behind the explanations I’ve heard for why Zoomers are spenders rather than savers. Such as, perhaps Zoomers are more focused on living (and spending) in the moment given their experience being deprived during their formative years that happened to fall during covid lockdowns. Perhaps Zoomers spend more frivolously because why bother save for a bleak future (“go ahead and splurge a little: it’s not like you’ll ever afford a house either way!” or “In the 21st century you can do everything ‘right’ and still easily end up failing, so why bother following the ‘right’ path?”) Perhaps it’s because we’ve created a world (at least in the US) where people are lonelier than ever and everything costs money: you can’t even hang out at the mall for free anymore because the mall was torn down last year, so you either spend money at another “3rd space” like a coffee shop, or you try to fill an emotional hole by purchasing things to make being stuck at home all the time more bearable (especially if you’re still living with your parents because you can’t afford to move out). Perhaps it’s because there’s more addictive stuff to spend money on that’s targeted at youth, like online streamers and pay-to-play games. Again I don’t know if any of this is true, but IMO it at least passes the sniff test.
However your comment asserts the opposite of what I’ve heard, so I was curious where you got your info from, especially since it’s presumably based in some kind of research if it was part of a work report. Did you survey Zoomers asking about their spending habits? Did you analyze credit card data? Etc.
This is a tear-off summary of a much bigger report created from multiple peer reviewed sources over months. I think from memory, the Gen-Z content had the fewest peer reviewed sources attached to it as a) there hasn’t been as much study done on Gen-Z because if they’re age (half aren’t even adults yet), and b) most of the studies done are based on change culture and online habits.
Gen-Z as wasteful spenders is an age biased assumption. Research suggests that their learned experiences through GFC, COVID, geo-political inability, environment, and a post-COVID economy has hardened their resolve, much like WW1, the Great Depression, and WW2 did for their grandparents.
I mean shit could change. They’re only 26 at the oldest so their data is evolving.
That makes sense, thank you
Now do the other generations!
I’ve done them all. It’s my job. Here are the big ones but I could go all day on demographic, psychographic, and technographic segments.
Gen-X
Are nostalgic, middle-aged, family oriented, individual, busy/stressed, and time poor. They are consumers of media and marketing in the evenings and enjoy peace of mind. They apply high value to security and protection, are customer-service centred and insist on value. They are brand loyal.
Entering peak career/positions of power, Gen-X are financially stable. They are newly empty nesters with adult children. They are homeowners with high purchase power.
Gen-X thoroughly research products, rely on businesses as providers of information, and are the highest online information seekers with moderate use of smartphones (3 hours p/day). They prefer text and email and are high social media consumers.
Boomers
Are informed shoppers and prefer reliability of products. Boomers are independent, goal/solution oriented, are value and ROl orientated, careful buyers, and confident. They are less tech savvy (slow adopters of change), and don’t like or understand online trends and language. They prefer helpful and valuable content, no slang, and have a high focus on luxury. They have an attitude of 'the customer is always right’, and have a high use in their children as tech advisors. They are very brand loyal.
Boomers have a high disposable income, work hard and have an excellent work ethic. Now retired or entering retirement, they have grandchildren, are homeowners/investors with very high purchase power. Boomers are the wealthiest generation, set to bequeath $224B in the next two decades.
With a strong focus on health, Boomers spend to be comfortable, are big spenders, and prefer traditional relationships with business and necessary contact. They are high Facebook users, prefer clear and concise language, and spend 5 hours p/day on smartphones. Boomers are print and broadcast media consumers. They are traditional.
Silent Gen
Silent Gen are extremely loyal and expect loyalty in return. They are disciplined, family/community centred, prefer conformity, give and expect respect, are traditional, resilient, determined, very health conscious, and time rich.
Now Grandparents / Great Grandparents, they are retired, downsizing, and social. Silent Gen have an easy-life preference, seek value, are very frugal, and are budgeters. They are almost exclusively analogue and highly self-sacrificial.
Gen Z hasn’t had their name changed several times yet
It’s fuckin annoying. The whole time I thought I was Gen X up until a decade ago. Then all of sudden other people are telling me I’m this bullshit.
For fucks sake, I remember using rotary phones and fucking with TV antennas to get better reception. I remember when no one had cell phones or the Internet. If you didn’t know an answer to something, you just made your peace with that.
No GPS, no map Quest, no internet on cell-phone. You just got lost in the smokey mountains for hours, about to run out of gas, hoping there was an open gas station at the next exit. Just raw-dogging those road-trips for the most part
I’m 35 and remember all those things too, but I was never under the impression I was gen x.
I’d say: if you remember the fall of the Berlin wall, you aren’t a millennial, no matter what they say. If you don’t remember 9/11, you’re gen Z.
I use the MTV demarcation line. If you were born before MTV came on the air (1982) then you’re GenX. But the whole Xenial thing is also legit.
PS the hidden secret to knowing anything before the internet was librarians. If it was really obscure the NY public library would take calls from all over the country.
It’s a microgeneration: the Xennials. We had all the analog fun of X and developed all the cynicism of Millenials.
Guess that makes me a zellenial. Fucked with rotary phones, dial-up, and analog tech but also grew up with access to the early internet.
The annoying thing I’m discovering is people insisting that millennials were all children in the early 2000’s, when, if millennials start with 1980 as I’ve been told (and it does seem to keep changing), a lot of millennials were adults before the 2000’s even started.
Ok boomer.
I get it. You’re changing their name again.
There’s strong statistical evidence suggesting that millennials are, on average, older than gen z’ers. It not clear from the latest studies what could have caused this presumed age gap.
Those same studies also evidenced the startling fact that the tested individuals shared over 99.9% of their genome and could in fact belong to the same species, which is what prompted all the recent controversy after one of the lead researchers said in a televised interview that “they’re all people”.
Computer use, millennials always had computers but Gen Z grew up with tablets and smartphones.
I’m among the first millennials. I grew up without a computer. While we had that single, ancient Apple II in school for the Oregon trail, it was just as a “treat” and never in any serious educational use. Didn’t even have a computer lab till high school, and all they really taught us was word processing/typing. I was lucky we had some extra off site courses available that taught some IT, CAD, HTML, and programming. But that was by the end of the 90s, 1998-99.
But yeah, point I’m making is while computers were around, not everyone really knew about them. I think there were a good number of middle class millennials who got to grow up with access to a computer at home. My family was too broke to lay down 2 grand on a computer that my parents had no understanding what it was useful for.
“What are some differences between these two groups that we can use to divide them?”
Fuck off.
They might as well has asked “what was it like for you growing up?” because everyone’s just posting their own experiences and insisting their entire generation was exactly the same.
The direction we prefer for scrolling.
RIP scroll bar and scroll wheel. I’m swiping down to move the bar, which does the heavy lifting of moving the page up for me. This allows me to scroll more with less fatigue and thus I can consume more internet and therefore get more knowledge. Plus, swiping down works your bigger superior forearm muscles, which is the part of the arm that the ladies like, whereas swiping up works the inferior muscle on the other side that no one cares about. In conclusion, scroll down for bigger brain, better grip, and more birches.
I recommend turning your mouse around
Me, reading these comments, laughing in GenX
Dude, you’re, like, caring too much. Gen X card revoked. Whatever.
Who?
(Lol jk fellow GenXer)
Oh we’re well aware of who you are, you’re the last generation of boomerism.
Forgotten generation title doesn’t last when the next generation doesn’t forget you.
Let the 20th century’s middle children have their joke. Comon, it was a little goof and you come in guns blazing. Relax, save your energy for fighting something that matters.
Now if you’ll excuse me I’ll be over here rubbing IcyHot and cannabis lotion on my joints as I quietly await an early death
As a millenial I found I had a lot more in common with my Gen Z brother than I do with my boomer father. However, the little shit treated and thought of me like I’m a boomer. He’d consider my shitty FPS playing on console to be a sign “I couldn’t play games” (I’m a PC gamer).
I’d like to think he’ll mature and realise he was being a little cunt but I doubt he will.
I have kids in both these age groups and they are more alike than different. I think the younger set is slightly better with technology and much more diverse in their musical taste than the older ones were at the same age. I guess they don’t have a generational difference if they are all siblings though.
Hi. System Admin millennial here.
You would think that’s the case, but in my experience it’s not.
Millenials were around during a major shift/evolution in general home computer use, so we’re much closer to understanding the “flow” of tech, even if it’s older. Gen-Z tries to think in smartphone or tablet mode.
Younger Gen-Z are the same as a blue collar boomer: when the company I work for hires a Gen-Z employee, I spend a ton of time with them the first few weeks “fixing” their “broken” machines. Most of the Millenials that are hired can do the general troubleshooting themselves.
I will agree with the music bit though.
I’m oldish GenX and maybe atypical but was a very early adopter of tech, on Usenet as soon as I could connect to anything, and was tech support for the older kids (but both got very tech savvy boyfriends) and of the younger set only the 19 year old has outpaced me. But I do think, if generalizing:
I can work computers because I had to fix them and like to mess with them. So everything now seems so easy in a way - I set up a network in my old house, wires everywhere, testing testing fixing, blah. Was dreading doing it when we moved - nope, mesh system, scan a code, boom done! Amazing!
Millennial kids don’t expect everything to work but seem stumped when it doesn’t. This may just be my kids because I fixed stuff for them.
The younger ones are used to everything working seamlessly and it does for them. That mesh network setup did not awe them, they expected it to be that easy!
Former gen-x here (I was gen-x when millennial used to mean people who graduate high school on/after the start of the millennia, but they moved x back to 1980 leaving me in a weird place). I think the main difference in younger people today is that their technological savvy is more in mobile devices since they are so powerful and so connected that they don’t really need PCs for anything. I first noticed this living in Japan because they had very useful, high-tech hand-helds very early on. As such, I worked with many around my age who could barely even use something like Excel and had no computer troubleshooting experience. It seems to me like many of gen-z or possibly alpha don’t have the PC side, but are very good with mobile.
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Gen Z (especially women) are typically a bit more progressive than millennials. There’s a minority of Gen Z conservative men, but it’s overstated.
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Arguably better media literacy amongst Gen Z, likely because they grew up with social media at its peak.
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Better tech literacy amongst millenials perhaps due to multiple major technical changes during that period and harder to use systems
I’d say though that millenials and Gen Z are actually very similar on the whole in their beliefs, just with differences in degree. There’s a bigger gap from both of these generations to Gen X and Boomers. You can see this from the much higher conservative voting rates that kick in from Gen X and later.
I keep seeing report after report that Gen Z keeps falling for internet scams at an alarmingly high rate
…which, I mean, idk, maaaybe?
Media literacy and scam discernment, I feel like we as millennials grew up alongside the rise of disinformation and the greater Enshitification of the internet, like this is our wheelhouse.
I remember icq, yahoo chat rooms, Napster and limewire, playing MUDS and ADOM, then digg, myspace. I remember when the Internet was fun, now, it’s just advertisers. I quit Facebook 7 years ago. I quit reddit with the API dick punch. I’ve been advertised to so much in my life that if I see a movie trailer it makes me not want to see it.
The internet can be great. Getting knowledge off it is amazing. I personal feel like the library of Congress should be made available online for free and all this knowledge thats hiding behind pay gates needs to be visited by the freedom fairy. I hope I can help facilitate this in my lifetime.
With media, I can only speak for myself, but I quit watching news in 2008. Ill read my news and not have some talking head attempt to emotionally manipulate me while they leave out key facts that don’t fit their narrative, thanks. Televised news has been more detrimental to us as a whole, imo.
My bullshit meter is simple. If whom or whatever is saying something that makes it an us vs them issue, dividing the people up, then they’re wrong. Almost universally. If your answer is only found down around the fallen, you aren’t bringing an answer, yr bringing an excuse to violence.
Real leadership, real progress, lifts up those it encounters. The rising tide is supposed to lift all ships. Cept in this dystopic reality, motherfuckers chained everyone’s ships to the dock and the rising tide just overcame and sank them. Rich get richer, poor get poorer, until the poor get even.
I’m dismayed we have to keep repeating this pattern. America had the same problems 100 years ago. We’ve had an entire century to do something about it, but fucking NOPE. An entire century wasted in my opinion. Better tech is cool, but if it doesn’t improve the lives of us all, than it fails the reasoning for tools existing in the first place, which is to relieve society if the many necessary hours of labor.
I keep seeing report after report that Gen Z keeps falling for internet scams at an alarmingly high rate
…which, I mean, idk, maaaybe?
I feel like very young people are just more likely to get scammed due to lack of life experience. There are just a bunch of new avenues for scammers to access young people. I bet it pans out that it’s not the generation, it’s the age group.
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