A sleep scientist/professor named Matt Walker has a podcast about, you guessed it, sleep. He talks about this and how it’s very unfair to people who are biologically programmed to get tired later.
He goes on to describe scientific proof of the effect this has on their sleep and the impact to their health. It’s sad really, but his hope is to raise awareness and acceptance of the night owl’s schedule.
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This attitude is maddening. I am diagnosed with delayed sleep phase syndrome that will turn into a non 24 hour rhythm if I let it. I’ve worked with sleep doctors all over the country, most recently Duke.
I’m lucky that my work lets me start at 11am, I don’t get enough sleep those days but better than it could be.
Unfortunately I’m on call every other week, so forcing my clock to reset isn’t an option. It takes me 6 to 10 weeks to get to societies ideal sleep schedule, and a single night of interrupted sleep to undo all that work
The weeks I’m not on call are my weeks with my daughter, who has to be at school at 730 and there’s no bus for her to ride.
Either week, my schedule is fucked and I’m in a haze all the time. Helpfully anyone who finds out about it just tells me to excercise more (makes no difference, ive done a lot of testing and exclusion), stop caffeine (tried it), stop using screens of any kind after work (been there), or any other thing that they think I am doing wrong and causing the problem.
I did not expect to rant that much… I completely agree, science means nothing in the face of feelings and preconceived notions.
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I feel ya. I’ve got the same thing. Luckily I’m still young and don’t have kids so I can at least adjust my schedule consistently, but man it sucks having to get up at 6 am on the weekends. The real frustrating bit is that I could totally get up 2 hours later if only I could WFH consistently. But corporate doesn’t like remote work so I have to go into the office at least 2 days a week to sit at a computer all day and program. Wonderful world we live in
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Many of us just don’t move enough.
It’s not only about being tired enough to fall asleep early. If I stick to a 10pm-6am sleep schedule I feel exhausted during the day, and by early afternoon I’ll be falling asleep. It’s like being jetlagged permanently; my body simply doesn’t want to keep to that schedule. It’s not just an “oh, you need to stick to the schedule long enough to adapt and get into a proper routine” situation either - it’s something I struggled with for years while I was in school and university, despite getting enough sleep.
It’s amazing how much better and more energetic I feel - physically and mentally - now I’m able to keep to a sleep schedule that suits me. Obviously exercising is a good thing, but early/delayed sleep phase syndrome are real things.
This. I work physically, get up just before 6 am, return tired as fuck and can easily go lights out at 8-10 pm half of the year. Doesn’t help. If I wake early, I feel tired all day.
Yeah, whenever I get up early, like 5 am, I wind up feeling sleepy and groggy all day and need a nap when I get home. Yet I can get up at 7 and feel fine all day, not need to go to bed till 11 pm.
I once had to do 12.5 hr shift work.
Going from 7 am to 7:30 pm wasn’t too bad compared to the nightmare that was 5 am to 5:30 pm, which meant I had to get up by no later than 4 am.
Same amount of time but the phase shift just completely messed everything up because my body just refused to comply that early in the morning.
So, what is your current sleep schedule?
Not OP but mine is 00:00 - 06:00.
I can’t fall asleep at 22:00. But my ideal schedule if I work permitted it would be 02:00 - 10:00. When I’ve kept this schedule before it’s literally night and day how better I feel.
I could go to sleep however early you like but I’d still be wrecked at 06:00.
Typically around 04:00-12:00 for me. Fortunately, I have a job that fits nicely around that, so I’m in a pretty good place overall, but when I do have to try to shift to more “normal” schedules it really wreaks havoc on my energy levels and mental clarity.
I’ve tried all sorts in an attempt to make a “normal” schedule work for me, like sleep monitoring, therapy, sleeping pills, and just being really over-the-top about my sleep hygiene (like not allowing screen usage for X hours before bed, no drinking or eating X hours before bed, etc). I can sort of make a “normal” schedule stick but I never feel good for it. And it takes constant work because my body naturally wants to gradually drift back towards a 4am sleep time, and I find going to sleep earlier than previous nights very difficult so once it starts slipping it usually takes an all-nighter to get it back to where I want it.
Like I said, I’ve generally got things pretty good right now with my job and lifestyle working around my sleep schedule. But it’d certainly be a lot easier if society didn’t think I was lazy and was able to accommodate me (and other people with less “normal” sleep schedules) a little more.
Still not op but Working days i wake up at 2000 head to sleep around 10 - 12 Days off i gwt up at 6 and generally go to sleep around 2200 - 0000
wow! i’m sure the neuroscientist-sleep expert never thought of that! he should have checked with you.
Shit, man, now I want to see a paper authored by some rando PhD and JizzmasterD
If I worked a physically intensive job from 8-4 you can be sure as shit I’d be dead asleep by 10pm at the latest.
Yeah but the world needs data analysts and programmers.
- data analyst and programmer
They can do their job while on a green energy generating treadmill. problem solved.
Humans are terrible bioreactors. It’d be the world’s worst energy source! Not green in the slightest considering how inefficient we are at converting food into treadmill energy, and how much resources are required to make our food.
Well most of us are fat, so that energy is already stored and needs to be released in some way. Being fat as it is is bad for the environment.
That’s what I do, except 6 to 230. I have to always take naps after, then go to sleep again at like 11 or 12. My sleep gets super fucked lol.
I think this is a good point, even if unpoppular. Physical activity can help a lot with sleeping. Colleagues, please, notice there’s “many of us”, not “all of us” in the comment before you downvote.
I think part of the unpopular reception is that those of us that suffer intractable sleep issues are told this constantly by people who just don’t understand it or are just out to shit on people they think are lazy.
From my parents convinced that I was useless and lazy, to co-workers who are sure I’m just too stupid to be able to sleep well, to partners I’ve had in the past… Always explaining to me how I’m doing something wrong, and surely if you just try to sleep you can. No. No I can’t. No matter what I do, even sleep aids are only effective for a week or two at the most.
It’s insulting to constantly hear people tell me that I just need to do this, or that and I’ll be able to sleep. Yes, I see it says many of us, but decades of being shit on for something we can’t control takes a toll.
I’ve struggled for 30 years to sleep ‘acceptable’ hours. At best, I can wake up early if I have to, and I do a lot because my child’s school starts way too damn early on the weeks she’s with me, and I’m on-call every other week when she’s not. That means I get 3-4 hours sleep most week nights. I’m too old for this shit, but I have no choice and no options. We know that not sleeping enough can have severe effects on physical and mental health, but if you aren’t on a ‘normal’ schedule that goes out the window.
and many of us stay up too late for no reason.
I’m a night owl and a morning person who works on a farm/cattle ranch. I had a 27 hour shift for the first time last month and I was kind of ecstatic about it. I felt proud when I got home and crashed. I also have a lot of willpower though so it’s easy for me to push through work stuff with very few freaks.
I guess this is my way of saying that everyone is different.
You had a 27 HOURS SHIFT ???
sigma grindset bro
Alpha Sigma Sigma grindrset.
Those cows ain’t gonna, uh, cattle themselves.
Welcome to farming. During harvest, 36 hours straight isn’t uncommon. And driving back and forth lifting and lowering a combine header is far from the sort of thing that keeps one alert.
That ain’t healthy bro. You can’t catch up on sleep.
That’s insane. He’s literally saying “early bird gets the worm” is true and we should punish the early bird. When the obvious solution is to set your damn alarm earlier.
Christ I hate you people. You think everyone is a morning person, some people are just lazy about it. You are literally incapable of imagining that other people are not like you.
Yes I know many people are lazy, and the last thing anyone would call me is a morning person. But I am motivated to earn money and make my business succeed which means making decisions that financially benefit the company first.
Don’t get too depressed when the business falls apart regardless of your actions.
I’ve failed upward my whole life, no reason to stop now.
So are we, we just fucking hate it
Or figure out something that doesnt require you to be up that early?? There is science out there that there are genuinely “morning people” and “night owls”, setting an alarm is a fine thing to do but it literally is in opposition to some people biology. I have been fortunate in my line of work (nursing, where shifts are usually either 7am or 7pm start times) to find a shift that starts and noon and ends at mid night, perfect for me.
Yeah exactly, there’s plenty of demand and opportunities for 2nd shift or 3rd shift work out there. Just because there’s no demand for 3rd shift bank tellers doesn’t mean there’s a problem.
Excellent use of your empathy there.
If I have to do it so should everybody mentality.
If some humans can handle lactose and others can’t. Some suffer from migraines whilst others don’t etc. you don’t think it’s possible that we also have different circadian rhythms.
Perhaps you could exercise some critical thought. Maybe go read any of the various studies on sleep and make an informed decision rather than a knee jerk reaction.
Also, positive intent. Just assume people are being truthful for the most part. Life is easier if you’re not looking to shit on people.
I run a business, not a therapy group. Assuming people are being truthful is how people walk all over you. Trust is earned.
No. Trust is lost.
If Apple can exercise positive intent as a core tenant of their business then so could yours.
Assuming everyone is out to get you is how you end up bitter.
If you believe Apple is practicing what it preaches I have a bridge to sell you. But yes, trust that is earned can be lost very easy.
I mean I did work there for 3 years but sure you know better.
as CEO? any other C-suite position? Because a publicly traded company’s #1 duty is to generate profit for share holders. “touchy feely nice nice” policies go as far as they can before they start impacting profit.
Why does making things fair for everyone mean punishing the currently privileged people to you?
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You can’t see that the more people cycle or the more bus lanes we have also means less cars.
Try framing it like this. Every time you see a cyclist remember that’s one less car. Or a bus could be 20-50 less cars on the road.
Buses, that makes sense. But never in the history of bike lanes has replacing a car lane with a bike lane meant as many cyclists using that lane as cars did before. Replacing car lanes with bike lanes in no way helps efficiently move people.
It’s better for the environment, so I support it, but let’s be real here.
Well, never is a bit of a strong word here. Copenhagen and Amsterdam have something to say about that. Now I’m not a fuckcars person, but I do see the value for those places. I am also aware that it works there because of multiple factors that do not necessarily translate well to other places, not just plopping a bike lane and hoping people won’t just use it for parking their cars. Oslo, for instance does not have the same infrastructure for bikes as Copenhagen does, presumably because they get worse winters?
I’ll say this, though, I was extremely surprised to see a traffic jam on the bike lane and no jam on the car lane.
Have you ever been to London? Because we have many many cycle lanes and it does help the flow of traffic.
Ever heard of Amsterdam?
I’m happy to be shown some examples to the contrary though.
Did they add a bike lane? Or did they replace a car lane?
I can 100% guarantee that any place that has removed a car lane and replaced it with a bike lane has people moving less efficiently. The math is inescapable.
I’m a privileged business owner, I’m open when I say I’m open. I’m not going to start a nigh shift just because someone wants to work one. they only way I would is if some government entity punished me and forced me to do so.
Adapting a system to suit more people when it exclusively suits you will always feel like oppression. In reality it is letting others enjoy the privilege that you already enjoy
They system already adapted by creating electricity and alarm clocks, and for the night owls, night shifts.
Night shifts are the only night owl specific concession and society as a whole of very much does not run like that. Flexible work schedules are the outlier by a wide margin.
Still glad to see it improving
What’s it like being so willfully wrong?
you’ll have to let me know.
Too dumb to be self aware, too dumb to judge how confident you should be. Tragic really.
That’s a little long, but think we can make it fit on your headstone.
So if I set my alarm earlier than I will turn it off and wait for my emergency alarm to go off.
I should got into bed earlier: well it might work but I am just not tired then. If I go to bed at 10 or 11 pm I will just stay awake for hours in my bed.
Luckily I have wfh and don’t have to attend meetings before 10 am. Sometimes I get out of bed 10 minutes before 10 and I still feel tired.
you do not exist
you are simply trolling
block and don’t reply
When they all got together to decide what kind of civilization to have, all the slackers slept in. That’s why we have to work before noon.
If they had just held their fuckin meeting at a reasonable time like 6pm we’d be on top of the world order
laughs in night shift
google coal mining swing shifts. Fucking ridiculous! 2 day shifts, 1 off, 2 night, 1 off, 3 day, 1 off, 3 night, 4 off, repeat.
Coal companies still fucking over working class folks I see…
Bottom of the wrung entry level coal truck drivers start at like $30/hr so I don’t feel too bad for them. A buddy of mine is an electrician at a mine and makes 50/hr days and i think nights are automatic overtime. He plans to retire at 40.
Nobody gave them anything. They just took it… while we were sleeping.
Damn if I actually did anything productive when I was night owling, I would suggest we take it back, but I’m still working my way through Baldur’s Gate III
The joke’s on them. I am no good before 8.30am or after 8.30pm.
Hah, I’m no good.
Suck on that.
Team Permanent Exhaustion. We continue to exist for reasons.
Ah, a fellow neitheriser! If I didn’t have kids I’d be asleep… not like I’m doing anything but sit on my couch and remind them to get to the bus. Sweet bed is calling…
As an early person I think night owls have it better in some ways, yeah work can start early but if you want to do anything “cool” it’s always late at night. Wish they’d do more daytime concerts and stuff
Oh cool! Daytime concerts in the scorching Sun!
Sounds like something a vampire would say ~or a southerner~
Or an engineer. They are very vampire adjacent.
Frilly collars, debauchery, and a law unto themselves? I think you mean architect.
Which is worse?
One of the best shows I have seen was Sun Ra and his Arkestra opening for Sonic Youth in Central Park July 4th 1992. The show started in the afternoon.
Fuuuuck that sounds amazing
It was and I went in knowing nothing about Sun Ra. My hippie buddy was less than impressed with Sonic Youth so we dipped halfway through. SY isn’t that great outside and Sun Ra was remarkable.
I’ve seen the Arkestra several times with Marshal Allen but I never got to see the man himself.
Ha, yeah I could see SY not translating to an outdoor performance.
The only other time I saw parts of the Arkestra was when Trey Anastasio closed the Academy and some of the band playing that night were in the Arkestra.
Early bird here, am alwaya tired by 9PM, don’t even wanna go out on Saturday nights any more.
Sure, but I’m tired from being up too early lol.
I’m with you on this. Dance socials always starting at like 10PM, like could we not have done this earlier?
When I get off work, I have a good 7 hours of daylight, all the stores are still open, I can take a nap without ruining my sleep, I have plenty of time to play with my kid. I’m very cool with going to bed at 9-10 if that’s the tradeoff.
If you like loud, raw techno music and darkness, you could go for a morning party at Tresor in Berlin when the tourists are gone (and only the most dedicated heads are still there). I went there recently from ~6AM till 12 noon, and had a really great time. However, I’m no early bird myself; I had been awake in the streets through the night, but didn’t go to Tresor until the afterhours. I believe less than 30 people were there along with me, everybody respecting each other doing their thing and enjoying the experience. No idea if that’s a good way to start your day though?
Wow, that sounds pretty awesome ngl
It was indeed. Here’s is the set from that morning:
Listen to Nina Farrina @TRESOR Klubnacht / 26.08.2023 by Nina Farrina on #SoundCloud https://soundcloud.com/ninafarrina/nina-farrina-tresor-klubnacht-26082023
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Sure, but night owls have more fun.
More fun or more regrets? Both. The answer is probably both. (Spoken from a night owl forced to transition to early as fuck morning life)
How have you coped?
I haven’t
“poorly.”
I would guess “coffee.”
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Somehow, my body became coffee intolerant. I would drink espresso all the time as a teen and then, one day, any kind or amount of coffee would just give me super severe stomach cramps. Like debilitatingly painful. So I don’t drink coffee no more. And it’s not the sugar or the caffeine, either; soda doesn’t do this to me. Just coffee. Which sucks, because I like coffee.
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Monster is the way. Monster is life.
Yeah, playing video games and drinking all night sounds totally healthy!
An introverts wet dream 👌
Healthier than a night owl being forced to wake up early, yes.
Yeah I bet being a drunk is 100% healthier than not getting enough sleep 🙄
you sound fun at parties
I’m a blast. I’m just not going to convince myself it’s healthy.
It’s why you keep calling the early bird people at 8pm for work stuff and giving them shit for not working late until they get the message that them calling you at 8am is just as annoying.
It’s biology. When winter comes and we switch daylight saving times again, I wake up an hour earlier according to the clock while walking up at the same sun time the entire year.
That’s how you get fired.
cope and seethe early-birdbrain
I don’t think I’ve ever been accused of being an early bird lol
It’s the side you chose. Now have at you!
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Buisness hours are 9-5 in most countries I’m familiar with
8-5 in the US normally.
Getting mad that someone calls you after 8? That’s not even late you noob. Business hours. 8am isn’t normal business hours. Lazy fatass.
Useless boomer
You’ve gotta kill yourself dude. For the good of all of us.
This is not a shit post, it’s a real issue for many. In Denmark there is a political movement for the rights of non-early birds, called B-Samfundet (B-Society).
Brb moving to Denmark
Wait up, I’m coming.
The come already and start moving.
We just call that depression in my world.
Whoever downvoted is in deep denial lmao
That’s the first step on getting depression controlled. To accept you have one. Next step find the why?
I’m a morning lark, but this annoys me so much! People should be able to work whenever the F they’re at their most productive, not when morning larks decided everyone should be.
Feel free to continually emphasize this with your fellow morning larks pls
Luckily I work for a great company where the culture is generally “we don’t care when you do your work as long as you do it”, so I don’t have many larks around me with that flawed mindset anymore. But I do emphasize it when I get the chance!
From the studies I’ve read, this seems to be the case across the entire school system, not just university. If anything, it might even affect K-12 even more, since, the younger we are, the more sleep we need.
Nevertheless, I had my most challenging class 8am my freshman year of college and yeah, can confirm—it was horrific.
In retrospect, maybe it didn’t help that I was out partying til 3am every day too, but that’s a different story… (Jp, I was actually very diligent about it, but still couldn’t crack the formula. It was simply too early.)
For all of middle school, I would to wake up at 4:30 to catch the bus that arrived anytime between 5:30 and 6:25 to get to school at 7:15. And i wonder why my sleep is so fucked today, and why I was always too tired to focus on anything back then.
I just find a job where they don’t care when I start as long as I get the work done
That’s what I have. Then suddenly with RTO I get dirty looks for finishing my sprint tasks much faster than my coworkers so I have to pretend to be busy for hours. Fuuuuuck that bullshit.
I used to play this balance, but it’s honestly just as much effort to work hard as it is to pretend to work. Instead, I work throughout my work hours, and built the trust to have flexibility when needed.
I wake up without the alarm at 0400 every day now. My alarm doesn’t even go off til 0500. I only want to stay up late looking at the stars, but haven’t done that in forever.
I’ve become what I hate.
The stars are out 4am. And 5am. If you’re up anyways, take your coffee out and go have a look.
Look, I can’t help it. The dogs wake me up at 4 every day and I can’t train them out of it and once I’m awake, I can’t get back to sleep.
I wish I wasn’t a morning person. I really wish I could sleep in on the weekends. Alas, fate had naughty dogs in store for me.
You could try harder to train them out of it. Seek help from a dog trainer in your area.
My dogs are very stubborn and very stupid. One of them failed training. The other one can’t even learn to sit.
Definitely a you-problem. There don’t exist a dog too stupid to learn to sit on command. Them barking to wake you up continues to happen, because you allowed it to work in the first place.
If a dog barks and sees you raise… well of course they’ll continue that behaviour in the future, if it’s successful.
Oh it isn’t barking. It’s one of them jumping off the bed, zooming through the house in a big circle and then jumping on the bed over and over again and then the other one getting woken up by that and deciding it’s kisses time.
Then lock your door
What, and sleep without the dogs curled up next to me?!
There are two kinds of dog people. They are both in this thread.
I hear you. I’m an insufferable morning person, but my son goes harder and is almost always up before sunrise.
Honestly, I’m so used to it at this point that I kind of look forward to quiet time when I can just sit with the naughty little dog in my lap and read the news, check forums, etc. before work.
Here’s rhe secret: that’s why night people like the night too
Turns out people generally just don’t do anything in the morning or night and whichever one you choose doesn’t really make much difference
