A sleep scientist/professor named Matt Walker has a podcast about, you guessed it, sleep. He talks about this and how it’s very unfair to people who are biologically programmed to get tired later.
He goes on to describe scientific proof of the effect this has on their sleep and the impact to their health. It’s sad really, but his hope is to raise awareness and acceptance of the night owl’s schedule.
This attitude is maddening. I am diagnosed with delayed sleep phase syndrome that will turn into a non 24 hour rhythm if I let it. I’ve worked with sleep doctors all over the country, most recently Duke.
I’m lucky that my work lets me start at 11am, I don’t get enough sleep those days but better than it could be.
Unfortunately I’m on call every other week, so forcing my clock to reset isn’t an option. It takes me 6 to 10 weeks to get to societies ideal sleep schedule, and a single night of interrupted sleep to undo all that work
The weeks I’m not on call are my weeks with my daughter, who has to be at school at 730 and there’s no bus for her to ride.
Either week, my schedule is fucked and I’m in a haze all the time. Helpfully anyone who finds out about it just tells me to excercise more (makes no difference, ive done a lot of testing and exclusion), stop caffeine (tried it), stop using screens of any kind after work (been there), or any other thing that they think I am doing wrong and causing the problem.
I did not expect to rant that much… I completely agree, science means nothing in the face of feelings and preconceived notions.
I feel ya. I’ve got the same thing. Luckily I’m still young and don’t have kids so I can at least adjust my schedule consistently, but man it sucks having to get up at 6 am on the weekends.
The real frustrating bit is that I could totally get up 2 hours later if only I could WFH consistently. But corporate doesn’t like remote work so I have to go into the office at least 2 days a week to sit at a computer all day and program.
Wonderful world we live in
It’s not only about being tired enough to fall asleep early. If I stick to a 10pm-6am sleep schedule I feel exhausted during the day, and by early afternoon I’ll be falling asleep. It’s like being jetlagged permanently; my body simply doesn’t want to keep to that schedule. It’s not just an “oh, you need to stick to the schedule long enough to adapt and get into a proper routine” situation either - it’s something I struggled with for years while I was in school and university, despite getting enough sleep.
It’s amazing how much better and more energetic I feel - physically and mentally - now I’m able to keep to a sleep schedule that suits me. Obviously exercising is a good thing, but early/delayed sleep phase syndrome are real things.
This. I work physically, get up just before 6 am, return tired as fuck and can easily go lights out at 8-10 pm half of the year. Doesn’t help. If I wake early, I feel tired all day.
Yeah, whenever I get up early, like 5 am, I wind up feeling sleepy and groggy all day and need a nap when I get home. Yet I can get up at 7 and feel fine all day, not need to go to bed till 11 pm.
I can’t fall asleep at 22:00. But my ideal schedule if I work permitted it would be 02:00 - 10:00. When I’ve kept this schedule before it’s literally night and day how better I feel.
I could go to sleep however early you like but I’d still be wrecked at 06:00.
Typically around 04:00-12:00 for me. Fortunately, I have a job that fits nicely around that, so I’m in a pretty good place overall, but when I do have to try to shift to more “normal” schedules it really wreaks havoc on my energy levels and mental clarity.
I’ve tried all sorts in an attempt to make a “normal” schedule work for me, like sleep monitoring, therapy, sleeping pills, and just being really over-the-top about my sleep hygiene (like not allowing screen usage for X hours before bed, no drinking or eating X hours before bed, etc). I can sort of make a “normal” schedule stick but I never feel good for it. And it takes constant work because my body naturally wants to gradually drift back towards a 4am sleep time, and I find going to sleep earlier than previous nights very difficult so once it starts slipping it usually takes an all-nighter to get it back to where I want it.
Like I said, I’ve generally got things pretty good right now with my job and lifestyle working around my sleep schedule. But it’d certainly be a lot easier if society didn’t think I was lazy and was able to accommodate me (and other people with less “normal” sleep schedules) a little more.
Humans are terrible bioreactors. It’d be the world’s worst energy source! Not green in the slightest considering how inefficient we are at converting food into treadmill energy, and how much resources are required to make our food.
I think this is a good point, even if unpoppular. Physical activity can help a lot with sleeping. Colleagues, please, notice there’s “many of us”, not “all of us” in the comment before you downvote.
I think part of the unpopular reception is that those of us that suffer intractable sleep issues are told this constantly by people who just don’t understand it or are just out to shit on people they think are lazy.
From my parents convinced that I was useless and lazy, to co-workers who are sure I’m just too stupid to be able to sleep well, to partners I’ve had in the past… Always explaining to me how I’m doing something wrong, and surely if you just try to sleep you can. No. No I can’t. No matter what I do, even sleep aids are only effective for a week or two at the most.
It’s insulting to constantly hear people tell me that I just need to do this, or that and I’ll be able to sleep. Yes, I see it says many of us, but decades of being shit on for something we can’t control takes a toll.
I’ve struggled for 30 years to sleep ‘acceptable’ hours. At best, I can wake up early if I have to, and I do a lot because my child’s school starts way too damn early on the weeks she’s with me, and I’m on-call every other week when she’s not. That means I get 3-4 hours sleep most week nights. I’m too old for this shit, but I have no choice and no options. We know that not sleeping enough can have severe effects on physical and mental health, but if you aren’t on a ‘normal’ schedule that goes out the window.
I’m a night owl and a morning person who works on a farm/cattle ranch. I had a 27 hour shift for the first time last month and I was kind of ecstatic about it. I felt proud when I got home and crashed. I also have a lot of willpower though so it’s easy for me to push through work stuff with very few freaks.
I guess this is my way of saying that everyone is different.
Welcome to farming. During harvest, 36 hours straight isn’t uncommon. And driving back and forth lifting and lowering a combine header is far from the sort of thing that keeps one alert.
That’s insane. He’s literally saying “early bird gets the worm” is true and we should punish the early bird. When the obvious solution is to set your damn alarm earlier.
Christ I hate you people. You think everyone is a morning person, some people are just lazy about it. You are literally incapable of imagining that other people are not like you.
Yes I know many people are lazy, and the last thing anyone would call me is a morning person. But I am motivated to earn money and make my business succeed which means making decisions that financially benefit the company first.
Or figure out something that doesnt require you to be up that early?? There is science out there that there are genuinely “morning people” and “night owls”, setting an alarm is a fine thing to do but it literally is in opposition to some people biology. I have been fortunate in my line of work (nursing, where shifts are usually either 7am or 7pm start times) to find a shift that starts and noon and ends at mid night, perfect for me.
Yeah exactly, there’s plenty of demand and opportunities for 2nd shift or 3rd shift work out there. Just because there’s no demand for 3rd shift bank tellers doesn’t mean there’s a problem.
If some humans can handle lactose and others can’t. Some suffer from migraines whilst others don’t etc. you don’t think it’s possible that we also have different circadian rhythms.
Perhaps you could exercise some critical thought. Maybe go read any of the various studies on sleep and make an informed decision rather than a knee jerk reaction.
Also, positive intent. Just assume people are being truthful for the most part. Life is easier if you’re not looking to shit on people.
as CEO? any other C-suite position? Because a publicly traded company’s #1 duty is to generate profit for share holders. “touchy feely nice nice” policies go as far as they can before they start impacting profit.
Buses, that makes sense. But never in the history of bike lanes has replacing a car lane with a bike lane meant as many cyclists using that lane as cars did before. Replacing car lanes with bike lanes in no way helps efficiently move people.
It’s better for the environment, so I support it, but let’s be real here.
Well, never is a bit of a strong word here. Copenhagen and Amsterdam have something to say about that. Now I’m not a fuckcars person, but I do see the value for those places. I am also aware that it works there because of multiple factors that do not necessarily translate well to other places, not just plopping a bike lane and hoping people won’t just use it for parking their cars. Oslo, for instance does not have the same infrastructure for bikes as Copenhagen does, presumably because they get worse winters?
I’ll say this, though, I was extremely surprised to see a traffic jam on the bike lane and no jam on the car lane.
Did they add a bike lane? Or did they replace a car lane?
I can 100% guarantee that any place that has removed a car lane and replaced it with a bike lane has people moving less efficiently. The math is inescapable.
You can’t guarantee anything of the sort, but fyi many of the routes are from road lanes, it’s London after all not much room for lateral space, but many places have put them at the side of the roads.
I’m a privileged business owner, I’m open when I say I’m open. I’m not going to start a nigh shift just because someone wants to work one. they only way I would is if some government entity punished me and forced me to do so.
Adapting a system to suit more people when it exclusively suits you will always feel like oppression. In reality it is letting others enjoy the privilege that you already enjoy
Night shifts are the only night owl specific concession and society as a whole of very much does not run like that. Flexible work schedules are the outlier by a wide margin.
So if I set my alarm earlier than I will turn it off and wait for my emergency alarm to go off.
I should got into bed earlier: well it might work but I am just not tired then. If I go to bed at 10 or 11 pm I will just stay awake for hours in my bed.
Luckily I have wfh and don’t have to attend meetings before 10 am. Sometimes I get out of bed 10 minutes before 10 and I still feel tired.
A sleep scientist/professor named Matt Walker has a podcast about, you guessed it, sleep. He talks about this and how it’s very unfair to people who are biologically programmed to get tired later.
He goes on to describe scientific proof of the effect this has on their sleep and the impact to their health. It’s sad really, but his hope is to raise awareness and acceptance of the night owl’s schedule.
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This attitude is maddening. I am diagnosed with delayed sleep phase syndrome that will turn into a non 24 hour rhythm if I let it. I’ve worked with sleep doctors all over the country, most recently Duke.
I’m lucky that my work lets me start at 11am, I don’t get enough sleep those days but better than it could be.
Unfortunately I’m on call every other week, so forcing my clock to reset isn’t an option. It takes me 6 to 10 weeks to get to societies ideal sleep schedule, and a single night of interrupted sleep to undo all that work
The weeks I’m not on call are my weeks with my daughter, who has to be at school at 730 and there’s no bus for her to ride.
Either week, my schedule is fucked and I’m in a haze all the time. Helpfully anyone who finds out about it just tells me to excercise more (makes no difference, ive done a lot of testing and exclusion), stop caffeine (tried it), stop using screens of any kind after work (been there), or any other thing that they think I am doing wrong and causing the problem.
I did not expect to rant that much… I completely agree, science means nothing in the face of feelings and preconceived notions.
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I feel ya. I’ve got the same thing. Luckily I’m still young and don’t have kids so I can at least adjust my schedule consistently, but man it sucks having to get up at 6 am on the weekends. The real frustrating bit is that I could totally get up 2 hours later if only I could WFH consistently. But corporate doesn’t like remote work so I have to go into the office at least 2 days a week to sit at a computer all day and program. Wonderful world we live in
deleted by creator
Many of us just don’t move enough.
It’s not only about being tired enough to fall asleep early. If I stick to a 10pm-6am sleep schedule I feel exhausted during the day, and by early afternoon I’ll be falling asleep. It’s like being jetlagged permanently; my body simply doesn’t want to keep to that schedule. It’s not just an “oh, you need to stick to the schedule long enough to adapt and get into a proper routine” situation either - it’s something I struggled with for years while I was in school and university, despite getting enough sleep.
It’s amazing how much better and more energetic I feel - physically and mentally - now I’m able to keep to a sleep schedule that suits me. Obviously exercising is a good thing, but early/delayed sleep phase syndrome are real things.
This. I work physically, get up just before 6 am, return tired as fuck and can easily go lights out at 8-10 pm half of the year. Doesn’t help. If I wake early, I feel tired all day.
Yeah, whenever I get up early, like 5 am, I wind up feeling sleepy and groggy all day and need a nap when I get home. Yet I can get up at 7 and feel fine all day, not need to go to bed till 11 pm.
I once had to do 12.5 hr shift work.
Going from 7 am to 7:30 pm wasn’t too bad compared to the nightmare that was 5 am to 5:30 pm, which meant I had to get up by no later than 4 am.
Same amount of time but the phase shift just completely messed everything up because my body just refused to comply that early in the morning.
So, what is your current sleep schedule?
Not OP but mine is 00:00 - 06:00.
I can’t fall asleep at 22:00. But my ideal schedule if I work permitted it would be 02:00 - 10:00. When I’ve kept this schedule before it’s literally night and day how better I feel.
I could go to sleep however early you like but I’d still be wrecked at 06:00.
Typically around 04:00-12:00 for me. Fortunately, I have a job that fits nicely around that, so I’m in a pretty good place overall, but when I do have to try to shift to more “normal” schedules it really wreaks havoc on my energy levels and mental clarity.
I’ve tried all sorts in an attempt to make a “normal” schedule work for me, like sleep monitoring, therapy, sleeping pills, and just being really over-the-top about my sleep hygiene (like not allowing screen usage for X hours before bed, no drinking or eating X hours before bed, etc). I can sort of make a “normal” schedule stick but I never feel good for it. And it takes constant work because my body naturally wants to gradually drift back towards a 4am sleep time, and I find going to sleep earlier than previous nights very difficult so once it starts slipping it usually takes an all-nighter to get it back to where I want it.
Like I said, I’ve generally got things pretty good right now with my job and lifestyle working around my sleep schedule. But it’d certainly be a lot easier if society didn’t think I was lazy and was able to accommodate me (and other people with less “normal” sleep schedules) a little more.
Still not op but Working days i wake up at 2000 head to sleep around 10 - 12 Days off i gwt up at 6 and generally go to sleep around 2200 - 0000
wow! i’m sure the neuroscientist-sleep expert never thought of that! he should have checked with you.
Shit, man, now I want to see a paper authored by some rando PhD and JizzmasterD
If I worked a physically intensive job from 8-4 you can be sure as shit I’d be dead asleep by 10pm at the latest.
Yeah but the world needs data analysts and programmers.
They can do their job while on a green energy generating treadmill. problem solved.
Humans are terrible bioreactors. It’d be the world’s worst energy source! Not green in the slightest considering how inefficient we are at converting food into treadmill energy, and how much resources are required to make our food.
Well most of us are fat, so that energy is already stored and needs to be released in some way. Being fat as it is is bad for the environment.
That’s what I do, except 6 to 230. I have to always take naps after, then go to sleep again at like 11 or 12. My sleep gets super fucked lol.
I think this is a good point, even if unpoppular. Physical activity can help a lot with sleeping. Colleagues, please, notice there’s “many of us”, not “all of us” in the comment before you downvote.
I think part of the unpopular reception is that those of us that suffer intractable sleep issues are told this constantly by people who just don’t understand it or are just out to shit on people they think are lazy.
From my parents convinced that I was useless and lazy, to co-workers who are sure I’m just too stupid to be able to sleep well, to partners I’ve had in the past… Always explaining to me how I’m doing something wrong, and surely if you just try to sleep you can. No. No I can’t. No matter what I do, even sleep aids are only effective for a week or two at the most.
It’s insulting to constantly hear people tell me that I just need to do this, or that and I’ll be able to sleep. Yes, I see it says many of us, but decades of being shit on for something we can’t control takes a toll.
I’ve struggled for 30 years to sleep ‘acceptable’ hours. At best, I can wake up early if I have to, and I do a lot because my child’s school starts way too damn early on the weeks she’s with me, and I’m on-call every other week when she’s not. That means I get 3-4 hours sleep most week nights. I’m too old for this shit, but I have no choice and no options. We know that not sleeping enough can have severe effects on physical and mental health, but if you aren’t on a ‘normal’ schedule that goes out the window.
and many of us stay up too late for no reason.
I’m a night owl and a morning person who works on a farm/cattle ranch. I had a 27 hour shift for the first time last month and I was kind of ecstatic about it. I felt proud when I got home and crashed. I also have a lot of willpower though so it’s easy for me to push through work stuff with very few freaks.
I guess this is my way of saying that everyone is different.
You had a 27 HOURS SHIFT ???
sigma grindset bro
Alpha Sigma Sigma grindrset.
Those cows ain’t gonna, uh, cattle themselves.
Welcome to farming. During harvest, 36 hours straight isn’t uncommon. And driving back and forth lifting and lowering a combine header is far from the sort of thing that keeps one alert.
That ain’t healthy bro. You can’t catch up on sleep.
That’s insane. He’s literally saying “early bird gets the worm” is true and we should punish the early bird. When the obvious solution is to set your damn alarm earlier.
Christ I hate you people. You think everyone is a morning person, some people are just lazy about it. You are literally incapable of imagining that other people are not like you.
Yes I know many people are lazy, and the last thing anyone would call me is a morning person. But I am motivated to earn money and make my business succeed which means making decisions that financially benefit the company first.
Don’t get too depressed when the business falls apart regardless of your actions.
I’ve failed upward my whole life, no reason to stop now.
So are we, we just fucking hate it
Or figure out something that doesnt require you to be up that early?? There is science out there that there are genuinely “morning people” and “night owls”, setting an alarm is a fine thing to do but it literally is in opposition to some people biology. I have been fortunate in my line of work (nursing, where shifts are usually either 7am or 7pm start times) to find a shift that starts and noon and ends at mid night, perfect for me.
Yeah exactly, there’s plenty of demand and opportunities for 2nd shift or 3rd shift work out there. Just because there’s no demand for 3rd shift bank tellers doesn’t mean there’s a problem.
Excellent use of your empathy there.
If I have to do it so should everybody mentality.
If some humans can handle lactose and others can’t. Some suffer from migraines whilst others don’t etc. you don’t think it’s possible that we also have different circadian rhythms.
Perhaps you could exercise some critical thought. Maybe go read any of the various studies on sleep and make an informed decision rather than a knee jerk reaction.
Also, positive intent. Just assume people are being truthful for the most part. Life is easier if you’re not looking to shit on people.
I run a business, not a therapy group. Assuming people are being truthful is how people walk all over you. Trust is earned.
No. Trust is lost.
If Apple can exercise positive intent as a core tenant of their business then so could yours.
Assuming everyone is out to get you is how you end up bitter.
If you believe Apple is practicing what it preaches I have a bridge to sell you. But yes, trust that is earned can be lost very easy.
I mean I did work there for 3 years but sure you know better.
as CEO? any other C-suite position? Because a publicly traded company’s #1 duty is to generate profit for share holders. “touchy feely nice nice” policies go as far as they can before they start impacting profit.
I guess I can’t reason you out of a mindset that you didn’t arrive at through reason in the first place.
With that said have a nice day and try to be better!
Tu eres aburrida.
Why does making things fair for everyone mean punishing the currently privileged people to you?
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You can’t see that the more people cycle or the more bus lanes we have also means less cars.
Try framing it like this. Every time you see a cyclist remember that’s one less car. Or a bus could be 20-50 less cars on the road.
Buses, that makes sense. But never in the history of bike lanes has replacing a car lane with a bike lane meant as many cyclists using that lane as cars did before. Replacing car lanes with bike lanes in no way helps efficiently move people.
It’s better for the environment, so I support it, but let’s be real here.
Well, never is a bit of a strong word here. Copenhagen and Amsterdam have something to say about that. Now I’m not a fuckcars person, but I do see the value for those places. I am also aware that it works there because of multiple factors that do not necessarily translate well to other places, not just plopping a bike lane and hoping people won’t just use it for parking their cars. Oslo, for instance does not have the same infrastructure for bikes as Copenhagen does, presumably because they get worse winters?
I’ll say this, though, I was extremely surprised to see a traffic jam on the bike lane and no jam on the car lane.
Have you ever been to London? Because we have many many cycle lanes and it does help the flow of traffic.
Ever heard of Amsterdam?
I’m happy to be shown some examples to the contrary though.
Did they add a bike lane? Or did they replace a car lane?
I can 100% guarantee that any place that has removed a car lane and replaced it with a bike lane has people moving less efficiently. The math is inescapable.
here
here
You can’t guarantee anything of the sort, but fyi many of the routes are from road lanes, it’s London after all not much room for lateral space, but many places have put them at the side of the roads.
I’m a privileged business owner, I’m open when I say I’m open. I’m not going to start a nigh shift just because someone wants to work one. they only way I would is if some government entity punished me and forced me to do so.
Adapting a system to suit more people when it exclusively suits you will always feel like oppression. In reality it is letting others enjoy the privilege that you already enjoy
They system already adapted by creating electricity and alarm clocks, and for the night owls, night shifts.
Night shifts are the only night owl specific concession and society as a whole of very much does not run like that. Flexible work schedules are the outlier by a wide margin.
Still glad to see it improving
What’s it like being so willfully wrong?
you’ll have to let me know.
Too dumb to be self aware, too dumb to judge how confident you should be. Tragic really.
That’s a little long, but think we can make it fit on your headstone.
So if I set my alarm earlier than I will turn it off and wait for my emergency alarm to go off.
I should got into bed earlier: well it might work but I am just not tired then. If I go to bed at 10 or 11 pm I will just stay awake for hours in my bed.
Luckily I have wfh and don’t have to attend meetings before 10 am. Sometimes I get out of bed 10 minutes before 10 and I still feel tired.
you do not exist
you are simply trolling
block and don’t reply