I am not whitewashing nazis and I’m very much aware that nazis and other nationalists took part of the color revolution, which is a sad reality.
I just really don’t like your absolute claims which in subtext say that the color revolution was led by, and the resulting government is full of nazis and additionally say that this is a fact! AFAIK this is just not true.
I didn’t make any absolute claims. I said that the government the west installed after the coup was full of nazis which is a fact. These nazis then went on to do these kinds of things to the people in eastern Ukraine which is what started the whole civil war. Seems like the real problem here is with you not actually knowing much about the subject you’re debating.
“fact” … again. Your rethoric get’s repetitive really quickly.
It is pretty obvious you are arguing in favor of Russia’s agenda and against that of the west.
But who is the “west”, is it the current Ukraine government, the people of the Ukraine? Is it the NATO or specifically the US or is it Europe? East Europe, West Europe? …
That’s not really that easy, especially before the war “the west” had so many different interests and goals when it comes to the Ukraine-Russia conflict that I’d argue that “the west” is pretty much an absolute term which just simplifies the situation too much.
One of the simple tricks the @lemmygrad users like to do as well to create a simple black and white world view to mobilize and pull out the pitch forks. A kind of rethoric I really don’t like.
It is telling that the one source you name is from Ivan Katchanovski, a highly controversial figure whose arguments seem to be very one-sided and support the narrative of russian propaganda. (Not sure how legitimate that claim is though)
However, I find the introduction and the conclusion of your source surprisingly neutral on a level of which I also like this discussion to be,
not this simple:
“They were all Nazis”, “a fact”
Even saying that someone is a Nazi is not that easy to interpret as you hope it do be. What I mean by that is, a Nazi when talking about the war from Russia against the Ukraine could be a extreme Ukrainian nationalist or a extreme Russian nationalist.
Both of these exist, both of these took part at the beginning of the conflict, both of these have troops and “brigades” in the current war on either Russian or Ukrainian side.
I don’t say you are totally wrong, but in complex conflicts like these you can’t just claim facts and absolute truths. It’s just not that simple.
Ukraine is one of the most corrupt nations out there with all the high ranking government officials having direct financial ties to the oligarchs in US. Nuland is literally on record hand picking government officials after the coup.
Again, my statement wasn’t absolutist. What I said is that Ukrainian government is full of nazis, which is a documented fact. You turned it into they’re all nazis which is not what I said. Right wing extremists clearly have huge influence in Ukraine, and they’re backed by Ukrainian oligarchs. You keep trying to paint this as some sort of a nuanced issue, but it’s not.
I agree in some points, e.g. that Ukraine is a very corrupt state.
Right wing extremists clearly have huge influence
I heard otherwise, not that they have no influence. But “clearly” a “huge influence” sounds wrong as well. Can you are least be a little more specific how significant you think these influences are?
with all the high ranking government officials having direct financial ties to the oligarchs in US
do you refer to the panama papers?
Intially you wrote (at the second top level of this thread):
before the west decided they needed a color revolution and a government full of nazis.
which implies some big western conspiracy, which I think is wrong and a too simplistic view.
I heard otherwise, not that they have no influence.
You heard this where exactly? Far right extremists are literally part of the government, secrete police, and military forces. Nazis had literally battalions that were officially part of the army.
do you refer to the panama papers?
Panama papers show a small glimpse into these ties, they’ve been extensively documented elsewhere as well. Biden family is directly involved in many questionable business dealings in Ukraine.
which implies some big western conspiracy, which I think is wrong and a too simplistic view.
There is nothing simplistic about it, and much of this is now public knowledge. You seem to be rather ignorant regarding the subject you’re debating here. This whole discussion has been you saying that you’re not aware of the basic facts of the situation.
Not really sure why you felt the need to start a debate on the subject you’re ignorant about.
I am not whitewashing nazis and I’m very much aware that nazis and other nationalists took part of the color revolution, which is a sad reality.
I just really don’t like your absolute claims which in subtext say that the color revolution was led by, and the resulting government is full of nazis and additionally say that this is a fact! AFAIK this is just not true.
I didn’t make any absolute claims. I said that the government the west installed after the coup was full of nazis which is a fact. These nazis then went on to do these kinds of things to the people in eastern Ukraine which is what started the whole civil war. Seems like the real problem here is with you not actually knowing much about the subject you’re debating.
…
It’s a well documented fact, but do go off.
“fact” … again. Your rethoric get’s repetitive really quickly.
It is pretty obvious you are arguing in favor of Russia’s agenda and against that of the west.
But who is the “west”, is it the current Ukraine government, the people of the Ukraine? Is it the NATO or specifically the US or is it Europe? East Europe, West Europe? …
That’s not really that easy, especially before the war “the west” had so many different interests and goals when it comes to the Ukraine-Russia conflict that I’d argue that “the west” is pretty much an absolute term which just simplifies the situation too much.
One of the simple tricks the @lemmygrad users like to do as well to create a simple black and white world view to mobilize and pull out the pitch forks. A kind of rethoric I really don’t like.
It is telling that the one source you name is from Ivan Katchanovski, a highly controversial figure whose arguments seem to be very one-sided and support the narrative of russian propaganda. (Not sure how legitimate that claim is though)
However, I find the introduction and the conclusion of your source surprisingly neutral on a level of which I also like this discussion to be, not this simple:
“They were all Nazis”, “a fact”
Even saying that someone is a Nazi is not that easy to interpret as you hope it do be. What I mean by that is, a Nazi when talking about the war from Russia against the Ukraine could be a extreme Ukrainian nationalist or a extreme Russian nationalist.
Both of these exist, both of these took part at the beginning of the conflict, both of these have troops and “brigades” in the current war on either Russian or Ukrainian side.
I don’t say you are totally wrong, but in complex conflicts like these you can’t just claim facts and absolute truths. It’s just not that simple.
Ukraine is one of the most corrupt nations out there with all the high ranking government officials having direct financial ties to the oligarchs in US. Nuland is literally on record hand picking government officials after the coup.
Again, my statement wasn’t absolutist. What I said is that Ukrainian government is full of nazis, which is a documented fact. You turned it into they’re all nazis which is not what I said. Right wing extremists clearly have huge influence in Ukraine, and they’re backed by Ukrainian oligarchs. You keep trying to paint this as some sort of a nuanced issue, but it’s not.
I agree in some points, e.g. that Ukraine is a very corrupt state.
I heard otherwise, not that they have no influence. But “clearly” a “huge influence” sounds wrong as well. Can you are least be a little more specific how significant you think these influences are?
do you refer to the panama papers?
Intially you wrote (at the second top level of this thread):
which implies some big western conspiracy, which I think is wrong and a too simplistic view.
That’s why I started the discussion.
You heard this where exactly? Far right extremists are literally part of the government, secrete police, and military forces. Nazis had literally battalions that were officially part of the army.
Panama papers show a small glimpse into these ties, they’ve been extensively documented elsewhere as well. Biden family is directly involved in many questionable business dealings in Ukraine.
There is nothing simplistic about it, and much of this is now public knowledge. You seem to be rather ignorant regarding the subject you’re debating here. This whole discussion has been you saying that you’re not aware of the basic facts of the situation.
Not really sure why you felt the need to start a debate on the subject you’re ignorant about.