I saw this discussion brought up on a different thread and I though I’d get some more opinions on the matter.
The Beehaw community guidelines describe a place that’s meant to be safe, friendly and encourages people to discuss their ideas in good faith. For the most part I feel like this community lives up to that; users of this instance are generally thoughtful with their responses. However, I don’t feel like that level of quality extends to the users who post from other instances. Responses from those users are more likely to pendantic, overly argumentative, and unhelpful.
Now I may just be an elitist fuck so I’d like to hear your opinions on this. Does Beehaw benefit from federation? Do the community guidelines even matter if they don’t apply to many of the people who engage with this instance? Am I just looking for a reason to complain?
EDIT: This post isn’t a request for Beehaw to defederate btw. I just wanted to discuss the negatives of federation and what we can do to alleviate them :)
As an autistic adult, it makes me incredibly sad that you would prefer to meet a transphobe. Occasionally (not on Beehaw as far as I know) I’m accused of being pedantic and argumentative online, but often the cause is a total misinterpretation of my tone and intent. I find it heartbreaking that hanging out with a transphobe is preferable to trying to understand an autistic person, and in all sincerity I hope you will explore the cause of your ableism so you can overcome it.
(This might be somewhat on the spectrum pedantic, but…) I wouldn’t call it “ableism”. Autism is not a disability by itself, it’s just a difference in communication; where neurotypicals focus on the “how” before the “what”, people on the spectrum tend to focus on the “what” before the “how”. That means, a neurotypical can easily sound like a pompous blob of nothing to someone neurodivergent, while someone neurodivergent can sound like a total asshole to a neurotypical, with neither of them particularly trying to. Meaning, autism is more of a “disability by comparison” in a world dominated by neurotypicals; if it were the other way around, we might be calling the “socio-emos” disabled, unable to focus on a single task without needing a break for some “casual chat”.
So I’m not really surprised that a neurotypical would rather meet another neurotypical, even a transphobe, rather than a neurodivergent tolerant person. It is indeed sad, but kind of expected, we just don’t speak the same language.
I think we agree on far more than we disagree on. However, for me, autism is legitimately disabling- I am prevented from engaging in many normal life activities that non-autistic people enjoy. Partly this is due to extremely severe sensory processing disorder, which I was told is part of my autism diagnosis and not a separate issue. Partly it’s due to ableism, which I define as “social prejudice against people with a specific diagnosis”- which is exactly what’s happening when an NT prefers the company of a member of a hate group above the company of someone with an autism diagnosis.
I get what you mean, but for me ND is different from disability.
In my experience, ND means I get miserable at a party with too many people (2 is almost too many), but I can watch paint dry for hours, have a great conversation with a (diagnosed) schizophrenic, or see the world (or a machine) as a holistic thing made of multiple levels of organization all at once in see-through 4D. It’s just a different way of perceiving the world, that NTs can’t stand and/or have a hard time understanding.
Disability, is what I call being part blind, I get nothing from it, just a loss (and it drives me crazy at times). Similarly with losing sensibility in my legs when I force my back, it just makes me fall over.
That leads me to define ableism as “disparaging people with disabilities”, which the NT/ND conflict doesn’t need to be; it can be just a preference to communicate in a way one can be understood, like picking a common language.
For example, I’ve been practicing communicating with NTs all my life… but I will begrudgingly admit that I felt much more at ease the one time I had a discussion with a ND homophobe mysogynistic nazi sympathizer; even if some part of me felt like kicking the living shit out of the guy, the conversation itself, felt easier. Would I pick that over a conversation with a NT tolerant person…? Maybe not, but I don’t feel like I can blame an NT with no experience talking to NDs if they picked the opposite.
If your argument is “you can’t be ableist against an autistic person because autism is not a disability”, we will have to agree to disagree, because my lived experience is that autism (for me) is disabling and ableism against the autistic is both real and disabling.
I also feel that reducing it to a simple language issue is negating that there are autistic folks (like me) who are disabled by aspects of their autism that are not related to failure to communicate with NDs. It’s good that your lived experience has been that autism is not disabling for you. My experience is different, and my experience still counts.
More nuanced: “someone doesn’t necessarily have to be ableist against an autistic person, because autism is not just a disability”. They can still be intolerant, though.
But you are right, this is from my experience. I might also be missing ways it might be disabling, just don’t perceive it that way; my main perception is the communication barrier. If you are willing to discuss your experience, I’m willing to listen and learn.
Please understand that writing about my experience of autism in a Beehaw comment will necessarily give an extremely simplified and limited view of what my life is like. I’ve had similar discussions in the past where the other person either decided I was seeking advice or found a way to twist my experience to fit their beliefs, and I’m honestly not here for either- if I stop responding after this comment, that would probably be why. I also can only give a few examples without also writing a book.
I am hypersensitive to all kinds of things that non-disabled people can easily ignore. I cannot go anywhere where there might be harsh florescent lighting, sudden noises, flashing lights, loud music, or strong, invasive smells like perfume, because these things cause me literal pain. This means I can’t go shopping in a mall or pretty much anywhere else. I can’t go to any large gathering of people. In fact, I can rarely go outside at all, because you never know when you’re going to be confronted with someone who thinks the whole neighbourhood wants to hear their music. I suffer from severe emotional dysregulation that makes my life a living hell- I am 51 and I have regular meltdowns and attacks of rage. My behaviour is not “normal” for a woman of my age, and it causes me great distress and prevents me from living the life I want to live.
That is not to say that I would want to cure my autism. The fact is, I am attempting to get treatment for my sensory processing disorder but am fighting ableist anti-autistic attitudes from local health care professionals. I believe there needs to be some sort of place in the NT world for those of us who are totally overwhelmed by the NT world but also would like to not always be left out of everything.
Hm, that indeed sounds harsh, and disabling. If you say it comes as part of the autism diagnosis… then I’ll have to read up and reflect on it.
Thank you for sharing.
The attitudes from some health care professionals, I’ve got some of those; I think some try to be funny, but their humor is… pretty twisted, and sometimes too out of place. That is, when they aren’t just undertrained, or burned out. If possible, try to find someone who understands your case, and stick to them, and hope their contract gets renewed.
Places like malls, or anywhere with ads (that includes images, lights, sounds, smells), I’m afraid are always going to be tuned to NT levels, so only something like relax places come to mind as safe spaces. At least, until everyone ends up wearing VR helmets 24/7, with their own personalized experiences (then you’ll get to experience your own low-key personalized ads too, yay!..)
Unfortunately, when local professionals told me that autism is a disorder of childhood in which they are not trained, and therefore they will not see me, they are being very serious, not joking even in a dark and twisted way. My country has a kind of national health service and I happen to live in an area where there are no services of any kind for autistic adults. Once I am told “no, you can’t have an appointment, I don’t see autistic adults”, there is nowhere else to go.
What do you suggest though? We can’t force NTs to spend time with autistic people, and it wouldn’t be constructive.
What I do is challenge this attitude when I see it. People think it’s acceptable to reject autistic people socially, and they continue to think this because nobody’s ever pointed out the inherent ableism in such an attitude. It’s just considered acceptable to feel that way, just like it would have been acceptable in the 1940s for a white person to not want Black people living in their neighbourhood- the same arguments were put forth, that integration could not and should not be forced on people. Now we know that is wrong. It’s time to know that social rejection of autistic people simply on the basis of autism is also wrong.
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Hey friend, it didn’t make only you sad. The viewpoint expressed was really not nice. Facing hardships in life because of your sexuality (which is not exactly a choice) seems like is not enough to be understanding towards other groups of people facing hardships in their life by having it be determined by things they didn’t choose. In many cases it doesn’t even seem enough to be a decent person.
Having lived all my life close to people I love and are struggling with the most difficult disabilities caused by autism, I had to try to ignore the comment that made you sad.
Thank you. Thank you. It really means more than you can imagine, I saw the little notification bell and thought for certain it was someone else disagreeing with me. I’m queer myself and very much an ally to everyone whose queerness is different to my own, and it hurt so much to learn that my diagnosis, to some, makes me less tolerable than a member of a hate group.