https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ones_Who_Walk_Away_from_Omelas
Basically the plot of this story. It poses the issue of how much we value society over the individual, and if that is good or not. Would you want to live in a world that depended on the the torture of a single person. You then could extrapolate that out to societies in the real world, US and chattel slavery. the west and the use of sweat shop labor for cheap products, the Emirates and their use of migrants as indentured servants. Even tipped wages for servers in the USA, the gig economy, and things like medical residencies could be considered a minor version of Omelas. As humans, we often tolerate the abuse or exploitation of others for our own benefit, or even just out of ignorance and inaction.
It is a quick read. One of a handful of stories that I have gone back to over the decades.
A great story that illustrates this question really well. It is by Ursula K. Le Guin, written in 1973, if anyone is wondering.
Ursula K. Le Guin
So pissed that she is not much more famous. Earthsea is one of the great fantasy stories that people tend to forget.
It always strikes me how few female sci-fi and fantasy writers I’ve read. I’ve tried amending that mistake over the last couple of years but it’s not easy, especially when looking for books translated into more obscure languages.
Now that you say it - her sci-fi is also up there with the best. Did you find any other interesting female sci-fi authors?
Julian May has a great series in two parts, the Saga of Pliocene exiles and the Galactic Milieu trilogy. Amazing books, great story, very moving and thought provoking.
Sounds intriguing, will check it out - thanks.
Like what happens in the anthropocene to pretty much all animals except dogs & cats lol
Star Trek Strange New Worlds recently did an interpretation of this story
https://www.lightspeedmagazine.com/fiction/the-ones-who-stay-and-fight/
Someone made a response story of sorts, figure I might as well share it here
I mean, most Christians would say yes because that’s the entire premise of the crucifixion.
This interpretation leaves out the most important part of the crucifixion story: Jesus willingly took on the world’s sins out of love. So whether or not most Christians would say yes depends on if the one person being tortured has a choice in the matter, which is unspecified in the question.
I came to say the same thing. This is exactly what Christianity believes.
But of course, it was Jesus who gave himself willingly.
If he was forced to do that, it would’ve been reprehensible because he was the only truly innocent person who ever lived.
I’ll take a different approach here. Evolution does not care about your feelings.
If a species is unwilling to self-sacrifice for the greater good, and it comes up against an event that cannot be solved with selfishness, it goes extinct. Like in this scenario.
But evolution is a motherfucker, and evolution does not care about your feelings, the only thing that matters to evolution is reproductive success. So some people are going to be altruistic because that’s better for the species because it makes it more survivable.
I’m not saying it’s right, I’m not saying it’s wrong, but the species that’s going to survive is the one that’s willing to self sacrifice for the greater good of the species. To increase reproductive success. And that’s what’s going to be left in the universe. Because evolution does not care. You either get with the program or you get out of the gene pool no other option
Evolution is not a good base for morals. We tried it out - was really bad.
Now hold on. How can we be certain? Maybe holocaust 2: electric boogaloo will be better
I’m in Germany, so not sure if allowed to answer.
Sure you can! Say it with me: “Eugenics and genocide aren’t a fast track to an improved gene pool. Holocaust 2 is bad news bears.”
Dang, I’m already marching on the street with a burning torch.
Evolution works, we exist.
Sure, but is a bad basis for morals. Like I said - social Darwinism is dodgy at best.
Evolutionary biology is definitely no basis for a system of morality. But I must say, as a biologist who studied evolution, that social Darwinism is not based either on evolutionary theory or empirical evidence. The idea that evolution is driven solely by competitive ability is pseudoscience, and works neither in human nor animal populations.
I wrote it further down, ist based on very basic understanding of evolution (happen to have studied biology myself) and sure, like any other moral system it’s not based on any empirical evidence.
You know Darwin himself was against the idea. He argued that our ability to look after one another was one of the most vital parts of being human and we can’t save humanity by giving up our humanity.
Oh agreed! 100%!! Evolution has no morality baked into it just efficaciousness.
So using evolution to reason moral questions is not the best way to go.
It may not be the happiest way to go but I think it’s the only self-consistent way to go.
As an individual I totally believe in making the world a better place, do unto others as that you would have them do unto you, all of that. But in the scenario where the world’s going to end unless one dude sacrifices themselves, I would say basic instinct kicks in. The tribe must survive!
I hope you just pretend that you don’t know what social Darwinism is and how applying it worked out in the end.
Do you mean ultimate badass Talenel’Elin , Herald of War?
First thought!
Username checks out. Lol.
No it’s not morally preferable. Fuck that world that requires human sacrifice.
Just out of interest, what if we make it a (not-human) animal instead of a human? Or, what if we make it trillions of animals every year. What about a world that doesn’t require it but still includes mass amounts of animal sacrifice unnecessarily? That’s the world we’re in right now 😂
Most peoples empathy differs from human to animal.
But it shouldn’t. Our empathy with other humans all boils down to knowing their ability to suffer. And science today agrees, that most animals are able to suffer and feel pain just like us. We really should include them into our circle of moral consideration and thankfully more and more people already do
Empathy is not rational. It’s more based on ability to relate to others experience. We are more empathic to people closer in our life and to people who made similar experiences as we. The same goes for animals, we have much more empathy towards pets and animals we perceive as intelligent. But it would be nice if we expanded our empathy - but first it need to include all humans and even that is quite the large asking.
I mean the “first world” is built entirely on the sacrifices of the rest of the world. People live in unimaginably horrible conditions so that we can consume and be free.
An inherently flawed world maintaining its function through cannibalism will inevitably devour itself into nonexistence. Why prolong its suffering?
Has that happened? No really I am asking for evidence. We have had forms of slavery since our species began. It wasn’t like one time we had a slave 20,000 years ago. The world still basically works with humans using humans. We don’t have to like it, we should fight it, but the idea that you are stating that if we are bad once we lose everything doesn’t match with the facts that we have.
I am typing this while wearing clothing made by children on a phone made by slaves in China.
I think it has happened numerous times already under the same pretense.
I am not sure if we are saved or not.
I’d just walk away from Omelas.
A great story that illustrates this question really well. It is by Ursula K. Le Guin, written in 1973, if anyone is wondering.
I would not do it, if somebody else does it - so be it.
Unfair to ask the question in the incomplete form… The tortured person is you. Now answer
Is that person Rupert Murdoch? Then yes
Haha, innocent. He doesn’t really fit the description.
Shit you’re right
I’m still fine with sacrificing him. Volcano, vultures, doesn’t really matter. Some kicks to the balls won’t do harm as well. He needs to be removed from society.
Can we torture 10 deserving people instead of 1 innocent?
Someone needs to watch “Knock at the Cabin” by Shyamalan.
Or Cabin in the Woods.
Absolutely!
“healthy unemployment rate”
Random people we’ve never heard of get tortured every day for less. What’s one more? Jack Bauer will do whatever he needs to do so everyone else can live and the world doesn’t end.
Come torture me
