Sometimes I really question the real motives of the environemtalists pushing for such petty changes. just make them biodegradable. especialy for things like groceries where there isn’t a big expectation for returns.
While I agree that we should focus heavily on the big stuff I really don’t understand why people get so upset about this. Everything little thing helps and if people just said “yes of course we should stop that” and moved on to the nex thing, we could get so much further.
It’s just such a low hanging fruit to ban stupid receipts that are generally not wanted.
Other low hanging fruit examples: single use plastic bags, single use plastic plates and cups, unnesseary packaging for products, non biodegradable packaging, unnesseary lights in stores that are closed, the smallest coin size like the 1-50 cent etc etc etc. Literally everything helps so don’t get upset.
If you can’t handle the small changes how the hell do you handle the bigger changes that are to come.
Why are people always so small minded about this? Have you not considered how immensely more polluting a car or a house is than a plastic bag? Have you not considered the people affected: a few of the richest vs millions of average people?
Think big. Think rich. Those are the changes we need.
Of course those are low hanging fruit as well. It just didn’t come to mind when I was writing. Thanks for adding to the list.
No need to be condescending.
I can only agree to that. I feel you. We can only hold them accountable by being disobedient to the norms of consumerism and stop giving them money and publicly humiliate their actions.
While I agree that we should focus heavily on the big stuff I really don’t understand why people get so upset about this.
Because there are side-effects. Receipts are an important tool against tax evasion. I.e. I would be very surprised if this change doesn’t cost magnitudes more in lost revenue than in prevented environmental damage. If the benefits are small even a small cost can make your measure a bad idea.
Edit: Not exactly scientific but: I can find thermal paper that can be recycled as paper for about €0.07 per meter on amazon.de. I.e. a single environmentally friendly receipt costs about a cent. As a reference: Tax evasion in this area is around 10 billion euros per year in Germany alone.
Customer can still get a receipt, it just won’t always be printed, you’ll have to ask. So this wont change anything related to tax evasion, it just means that you won’t have a garbage can full of newly printed receipt next to the exit door
The point is that receipts make it extremely easy for IRS agents/tax officers to check whether a till actually registers all sales. They just need to make a few purchases and then later check whether what’s on their receipt matches the till’s memory. But it doesn’t work if they have to ask for a receipt. A portion of turnover will be declared anyway and it’s going to be that with receipts if those are optional.
Sure, a tax dodger might end up going through the garbage to remove the transactions corresponding to receipts that were thrown away from their records, but that’s at least quite a bit of effort.
Sure, a tax dodger might end up going through the garbage to remove the transactions corresponding to receipts that were thrown away from their records, but that’s at least quite a bit of effort.
I don’t know where you live, but in france the government doesn’t check the garbage to find the receipt for simple groceries
You are talking from a pure economic and profit viewpoint. The nature doesn’t care about your profits. It cares about your actions. Nature is literally burning right now and we need action to prevent that and yes that does come with a price. Stop thinking only in profits.
Also your argument about the “cheap price” does not hold up. We use billions of meters of recipes every year. Let’s say the average frensh person go shopping 3 times a week and thereby use about 0.5m of receipt there are 67 milion people in France but let’s say some are kids and some don’t go shopping so let’s make that an even 50milion people.
50 milion people using 0.5m of paper for 50 weeks that’s 1.25 bilion meters of paper for 0.07€ that’s 87.5 million euros spend on just the paper alone then there’s the cost of all the machines and man hours spend on servicing them etc etc. and that’s just France!
So come again.
Edit: yes you say tax evasion is higher, but I highly doubt moving from a paper recipt to a digital one or none at all will change that significantly
Exactly. It costs money. Money we won’t have when let people dodge taxes. 87.5 million isn’t much when we’re talking about costs in the double digit billions.
Edit: yes you say tax evasion is higher, but I highly doubt moving from a paper recipt to a digital one or none at all will change that significantly
Do you really believe the government would implement something this unpopular unless it worked? If they do something like that, it’s abundantly clear that it’s necessary. No one starts annoying people with that flimsy paper for ideological reasons.
If you know a little bit about sales tax evasion, it becomes abundantly clear that receipts help.
To explain: If you dodge taxes and don’t want to get caught you’ll still declare a portion of your turnover to not arise suspicion. Hence it doesn’t matter if half the people in question get a digital receipt, half (or so) will be declared by tax dodgers as well. Receipts make it extremely easy for IRS agents/tax officers to check whether a till actually registers all sales. They just need to make a few purchases and then later check whether what’s on their receipt matches the till’s memory. But it doesn’t work if they have to ask for a receipt. As I said, a portion of turnover will be declared anyway and it’s going to be that with receipts if those are optional.
Hence best we can do is to allow digital as an alternative to printing so that not all receipts are printed. That’s possible here in Germany, but it’s not used much and it’s an either or relation to paper printing. If you have a feasible solution on how to force everyone (including octogenarians with dementia) to receive a digital receipt, I’m all ears. But if you don’t then paper is the best we’ve got. It’s also the only solution that’s privacy friendly.
For me I believe that making everything rely on technology and going digital is a bad thing, As much as I hate paper and bureaucracy. I am still attached to the idea that people should be allowed to function in a society by just using pen and paper, and plastic bags :-ç , requiring people to subscribe to a vicious cycle of contiounously outdating and outpaced costly technology every 5 years is more harmful to the environment than pen and paper.
Reading the article, it’s just aimed at pointless receipts. Think paying cash for a loaf of bread and a pint of milk. You don’t need paper for that. Update POS software to ask before printing.
Also, it’s mostly thermal paper these days. I don’t even think you can make that biodegradable and if you can there’s plenty of chemicals in there you probably don’t want releasing into nature. At this point it’s easier to just get rid of them than to replace them with dot matrix printers again.
Email is the wrong solution as well. Nobody wants to fuck about at the till going “danny dot f underscore 32 at yahoo dot mail dot org”. No operator wants to have to type that in. Half the time they’d type it wrong. I don’t want them to even have my email address, because I know they’ll spam the fuck out of it. I’d rather they just send a bunch of sale metadata to my credit card provider or something, so the proof of sale could be on there.
I just don’t take a receipt unless it’s for something that might need to go back. Equally pointless are the shops that ask if you need a receipt, but they’ve already printed it anyway so they just chuck it in a bin behind them.
Over here there are some supermarkets that offer digital receipts via qr code. It’s really not that hard tbh. Although I usually tap on “digital receipt” and then just don’t scan it so they don’t print one.
Petty changes still matters in the big picture. Even if they were made biodegradable, there would still be emissions involved in the production of them. Also this is definitely the future anyway, since payment methods are switching to digital either way.
Sometimes I really question the real motives of the environemtalists pushing for such petty changes. just make them biodegradable. especialy for things like groceries where there isn’t a big expectation for returns.
While I agree that we should focus heavily on the big stuff I really don’t understand why people get so upset about this. Everything little thing helps and if people just said “yes of course we should stop that” and moved on to the nex thing, we could get so much further. It’s just such a low hanging fruit to ban stupid receipts that are generally not wanted.
Other low hanging fruit examples: single use plastic bags, single use plastic plates and cups, unnesseary packaging for products, non biodegradable packaging, unnesseary lights in stores that are closed, the smallest coin size like the 1-50 cent etc etc etc. Literally everything helps so don’t get upset.
If you can’t handle the small changes how the hell do you handle the bigger changes that are to come.
More important low hanging fruit:
Why are people always so small minded about this? Have you not considered how immensely more polluting a car or a house is than a plastic bag? Have you not considered the people affected: a few of the richest vs millions of average people?
Think big. Think rich. Those are the changes we need.
Of course those are low hanging fruit as well. It just didn’t come to mind when I was writing. Thanks for adding to the list. No need to be condescending.
I’m just tired of being blamed when the responsibility lies squarely on the billionaires and the corporations they control.
I can only agree to that. I feel you. We can only hold them accountable by being disobedient to the norms of consumerism and stop giving them money and publicly humiliate their actions.
Because there are side-effects. Receipts are an important tool against tax evasion. I.e. I would be very surprised if this change doesn’t cost magnitudes more in lost revenue than in prevented environmental damage. If the benefits are small even a small cost can make your measure a bad idea.
Edit: Not exactly scientific but: I can find thermal paper that can be recycled as paper for about €0.07 per meter on amazon.de. I.e. a single environmentally friendly receipt costs about a cent. As a reference: Tax evasion in this area is around 10 billion euros per year in Germany alone.
Customer can still get a receipt, it just won’t always be printed, you’ll have to ask. So this wont change anything related to tax evasion, it just means that you won’t have a garbage can full of newly printed receipt next to the exit door
Asking defeats the purpose.
The point is that receipts make it extremely easy for IRS agents/tax officers to check whether a till actually registers all sales. They just need to make a few purchases and then later check whether what’s on their receipt matches the till’s memory. But it doesn’t work if they have to ask for a receipt. A portion of turnover will be declared anyway and it’s going to be that with receipts if those are optional.
Sure, a tax dodger might end up going through the garbage to remove the transactions corresponding to receipts that were thrown away from their records, but that’s at least quite a bit of effort.
You are talking from a pure economic and profit viewpoint. The nature doesn’t care about your profits. It cares about your actions. Nature is literally burning right now and we need action to prevent that and yes that does come with a price. Stop thinking only in profits. Also your argument about the “cheap price” does not hold up. We use billions of meters of recipes every year. Let’s say the average frensh person go shopping 3 times a week and thereby use about 0.5m of receipt there are 67 milion people in France but let’s say some are kids and some don’t go shopping so let’s make that an even 50milion people.
50 milion people using 0.5m of paper for 50 weeks that’s 1.25 bilion meters of paper for 0.07€ that’s 87.5 million euros spend on just the paper alone then there’s the cost of all the machines and man hours spend on servicing them etc etc. and that’s just France!
So come again.
Edit: yes you say tax evasion is higher, but I highly doubt moving from a paper recipt to a digital one or none at all will change that significantly
Exactly. It costs money. Money we won’t have when let people dodge taxes. 87.5 million isn’t much when we’re talking about costs in the double digit billions.
Do you really believe the government would implement something this unpopular unless it worked? If they do something like that, it’s abundantly clear that it’s necessary. No one starts annoying people with that flimsy paper for ideological reasons.
If you know a little bit about sales tax evasion, it becomes abundantly clear that receipts help. To explain: If you dodge taxes and don’t want to get caught you’ll still declare a portion of your turnover to not arise suspicion. Hence it doesn’t matter if half the people in question get a digital receipt, half (or so) will be declared by tax dodgers as well. Receipts make it extremely easy for IRS agents/tax officers to check whether a till actually registers all sales. They just need to make a few purchases and then later check whether what’s on their receipt matches the till’s memory. But it doesn’t work if they have to ask for a receipt. As I said, a portion of turnover will be declared anyway and it’s going to be that with receipts if those are optional.
Hence best we can do is to allow digital as an alternative to printing so that not all receipts are printed. That’s possible here in Germany, but it’s not used much and it’s an either or relation to paper printing. If you have a feasible solution on how to force everyone (including octogenarians with dementia) to receive a digital receipt, I’m all ears. But if you don’t then paper is the best we’ve got. It’s also the only solution that’s privacy friendly.
For me I believe that making everything rely on technology and going digital is a bad thing, As much as I hate paper and bureaucracy. I am still attached to the idea that people should be allowed to function in a society by just using pen and paper, and plastic bags :-ç , requiring people to subscribe to a vicious cycle of contiounously outdating and outpaced costly technology every 5 years is more harmful to the environment than pen and paper.
Reading the article, it’s just aimed at pointless receipts. Think paying cash for a loaf of bread and a pint of milk. You don’t need paper for that. Update POS software to ask before printing.
Also, it’s mostly thermal paper these days. I don’t even think you can make that biodegradable and if you can there’s plenty of chemicals in there you probably don’t want releasing into nature. At this point it’s easier to just get rid of them than to replace them with dot matrix printers again.
Email is the wrong solution as well. Nobody wants to fuck about at the till going “danny dot f underscore 32 at yahoo dot mail dot org”. No operator wants to have to type that in. Half the time they’d type it wrong. I don’t want them to even have my email address, because I know they’ll spam the fuck out of it. I’d rather they just send a bunch of sale metadata to my credit card provider or something, so the proof of sale could be on there.
I just don’t take a receipt unless it’s for something that might need to go back. Equally pointless are the shops that ask if you need a receipt, but they’ve already printed it anyway so they just chuck it in a bin behind them.
Over here there are some supermarkets that offer digital receipts via qr code. It’s really not that hard tbh. Although I usually tap on “digital receipt” and then just don’t scan it so they don’t print one.
Petty changes still matters in the big picture. Even if they were made biodegradable, there would still be emissions involved in the production of them. Also this is definitely the future anyway, since payment methods are switching to digital either way.