- cross-posted to:
- opensource@programming.dev
- foss@beehaw.org
- cross-posted to:
- opensource@programming.dev
- foss@beehaw.org
Thought this was interesting and worth knowing about
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Who is the moron at Mozilla that thought it would be a good idea to sell user information, and how much does he make a year?
$6M, but if you look at the California law that spurred this change, the Privacy Policy that hasn’t changed since July 2024, and the revised ToS, this looks mostly like a really, really, really stupid communication error.
It’s one of those cases where legally, “sell” includes things that most people wouldn’t consider a sale in normal parlance, but Mozilla has to comply with the overbroad legal definition; meanwhile, they don’t appear to be fundamentally changing anything about how they’re operating.
ETA: I’m still moving to LibreWolf (and maybe Ladybird later on). I’m not a lawyer, and expecting people like me to parse legal definitions of commonly understood words is just asinine.
legally,“sell” includes things that most people wouldn’t consider a sale in normal parlance
Like what, any specific examples?
I have been hearing this repeatedly as a talking point from people defending Firefox but without any specific example of what they do and don’t allow themselves to take and sell, it rings quite hollow.
https://blog.mozilla.org/en/products/firefox/update-on-terms-of-use/
The reason we’ve stepped away from making blanket claims that “We never sell your data” is because, in some places, the LEGAL definition of “sale of data” is broad and evolving. As an example, the California Consumer Privacy Act (CCPA) defines “sale” as the “selling, renting, releasing, disclosing, disseminating, making available, transferring, or otherwise communicating orally, in writing, or by electronic or other means, a consumer’s personal information by [a] business to another business or a third party” in exchange for “monetary” or “other valuable consideration.”
If they give anybody any information for any reason, they open themselves to litigation - however frivolous and unwarranted - because the laws are written to be intentionally vague, to capture a wide variety of scenarios, including those that the law does not explicitly state. There are tons of valuable exchanges that could occur other than strictly data for money, and those exchanges are therefore captured within this new legal definition. To protect themselves from frivolous lawsuits and to remain consistent within the new definitions of these laws, Firefox/Mozilla has changed their Terms of Use. Their uses of data are outlined within their Privacy Policy (linked within the above post).
I suppose this information is only valuable if one trusts Mozilla - one of the most stalwart, dedicated, and outspoken advocates for consumer rights in the digital age.
I’m not saying Mozilla is infallible or above reproach - nobody/nothing is or should be considered so - but if I’m gonna trust any group that says “I’m not fucking you over” it’s gonna be the group that has a consistent and very clear history of championing the idea of not fucking people over
where legally, “sell” includes things that most people wouldn’t consider a sale
Allowing access for valuable consideration is pretty cut and dry. What is the legislation defining beyond that?
To quote this wiki that did a very good job of breaking down this clusterfuck:
The CCPA defines “selling data” as:
“Sell,” “selling,” “sale,” or “sold,” means selling, renting, releasing, disclosing, disseminating, making available, transferring, or otherwise communicating orally, in writing, or by electronic or other means, a consumer’s personal information by the business to a third party for monetary or other valuable consideration.
The sticking point is that last “other valuable consideration.” The question that people should be asking is: “valuable to whom and in what capacity?” Value does not need to be for financial gain; knowledge is valuable to a contractor building a building, for example.
But I recommend reading that wiki breakdown or just watch this video. It’s a mess that can’t be untangled in a simple Lemmy comment.
I don’t want Mozilla to be handling my personal data in any way. Anonymized usage statistics? I could be convinced to relinquish that. But that’s it.
From what I understand, usage stats are anonymized, and you can opt out of telemetry. But as I personally move to more hardened and private ways to connect, I’m moving to LibreWolf to err on the side of caution.
It all feels like flying too close to the sun for my taste. I don’t like the idea of normalizing policies that aren’t cut and dry and easy to understand. Have a legal version and a version for dumb people like me if needed, but don’t expect me to play lawyer and connect the dots.
Ladybird is interesting, but not ready to be a daily driver yet.
Alpha release is expected in 2026, it isn’t trying to be ready yet, and I love that.
I’d rather have something fully cooked than half-baked.
You’re missing the point:
It isn’t supposed to be ready, of course you’d rather have something ready. Ladybird is not even available yet unless you’re building from source to test the pre alpha progress
Wasn’t sure if there were better places to post this, feel free to cross-post if you know other fitting communities :)
Thank you for posting it by the way. This is both good, and important news
I mean, for now…
If terms of use aren’t regulated in any way apparently companies can change them whenever they fucking want to.
They can say this today and then a month from now completely backtrack just like Mozilla did…
Terms of use do not mean fucking anything.
lol, what a shitshow. A product from the same company is distancing from the stench. Good on them, but it shows who did some things wrong.
It’s a different piece of software. It makes no sense for them to adopt the Firefox Terms of Use, no matter how they might think of them.
If I remember correctly, Thunderbird isn’t a Mozilla product anymore but it’s maintained by the community. Mozilla just hosts it.
It was community maintained, then MZLA Corp was formed under the Mozilla Foundation. Deals to house Thunderbird under other foundations fell through, which is why it’s still under the Mozilla Foundation.
Thunderbird May Disclose Information To: Mozilla Affiliates: Thunderbird is a project of MZLA Technologies Corporation, a subsidiary of Mozilla Foundation and an affiliate of Mozilla Corporation, and as such, shares some of the same infrastructure. This means that, from time to time, your data (e.g., crash reports, and technical and interaction data) may be** disclosed to Mozilla Corporation and Mozilla Foundation**. If so, it will be maintained in accordance with the commitments we make in this Privacy Notice.
DNS servers, Standard Autoconfiguration URIs, and Mozilla’s Configuration Database: To simplify the email set-up process, Thunderbird tries to determine the correct settings for your account by contacting Mozilla’s configuration database as well as external servers. These include DNS servers and standard autoconfiguration URIs. During this process, your email domain may be sent to Mozilla’s configuration database, and your email address may be disclosed to your network administrators.
Amazon Web Services: Thunderbird uses Amazon Web Services (AWS) to host its servers and as a content delivery network. Your device’s IP address is collected as part of AWS’s server logs.
Email address providers (Desktop Only Legacy): Prior to version 128, Thunderbird partnered with Gandi.net and Mailfence to allow you to create a new email address through Thunderbird. If you choose to use this feature, your email address search terms are sent to Gandi.net and Mailfence to return available addresses. In addition, your country location is also shared to provide the correct prices. You can learn more about Gandi.net’s and Mailfence’s data practices by reading their privacy notices.
Always good to read TOS and PP of an service.
This whole thing is concerning. Are there other real alternatives to FF or Chromium?
Creating a browser from scratch is a monumental task, ladybird is such a project which has been in progress since ~2022, and will probably take another couple before it’s at beta. Optimistic release is 2028, or ~6 years of development.
I’ve moved to schizofox (NixOS) but there are plenty of other forks available which remove telemetry and other default behaviours from Firefox.
Chromium forks are another alternative however due to chromiums dominance in the browser space I’m reluctant to shoutout any forks.
I finally switched from Firefox to librewolf, which is a privacy focused fork of it. It’s basically Firefox with some of the iffy stuff ripped out, and with good default settings.
Firefox with proper settings is probably “fine” still, but the transition is super easy since it’s basically the same thing.
Based.
No one uses Thunderbird anymore anyways, which doesn’t matter as the ToS changes to Firefox are a nothing burger and won’t dissuade millions of people using it daily despite what the neck beards on Lemmy would have you believe.
No one uses Thunderbird anymore
You pulled this out of your ass?
Thunderbird currently has millions of users.
Thunderbird actually had a big resurgence a little while back, I use it as my mobile client 🤷♂️ If I understand correctly it’s not actually a directly Mozilla project anymore.
Personally I’m less bothered by the terms of use changes specifically than the bigger picture of mozilla consistently making choices that confuse or raise eyebrows with their core audience, letting their browser languish from a technical standpoint, and making confusing business choices that don’t seem to help their financial future at all while paying executives huge salaries
I use it as my mobile client 🤷♂️
Same here and I’m glad you posted this info
