- cross-posted to:
- world@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- world@lemmy.world
Summary
Euthanasia accounted for 4.7% of deaths in Canada in 2023, with 15,300 people opting for assisted dying—a 16% increase, though slower than prior years.
Most recipients had terminal illnesses, primarily cancer, and 96% were white, sparking questions about disparities.
Quebec, at 37% of cases, remains Canada’s euthanasia hotspot.
Since legalizing assisted dying in 2016, Canada has expanded access, now covering chronic conditions and planning to include mental illnesses by 2027.
Critics, citing rapid growth and controversial cases, warn of insufficient safeguards, while proponents highlight strict eligibility criteria. Debate continues globally.
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I’m surprised it’s that many, but it’s people who are allowed to die with dignity, and released from a life of pain.
I hate we don’t have that right here in Denmark.Not that surprising given how big our aging boomer demographic is. This was my father two years ago who had fought a year long battle with cancer before deciding to go with MAID. He was already hospitalized in palliative care and it may have only saved him a day or two more of suffering. In fact after how rough his final night was, I wish he had been able to let go a day earlier.
While people should have the right to end their own lives, i feel like widespread use of euthanasia will degrade the standards of our medical care.
How?
Overinflated stat due to a population bubble. Boomer generation population size outweighs gen x, millenials and gen z combined.
Even in a privatized hospital, like the US, euthanasia will always be cheaper than normal medical care. So even in capitalist countries I don’t see that being the case.
At least in Canada people can choose euthanasia because they are in pain rather than because they’re bankrupting their family
I would be curious how this affects the suicide statistics.
That is the neat part, it does not!
so 4500 “suicides” vs the articles above 15,300 people. I don’t think 15,300 is a subset of 4500.
I think they mean in the concept of someone who would now qualify for MAID who otherwise might have chosen suicide. Or at least that’s how I took it- MAID could actually decrease suicides by offering an alternate solution to those without quality of life or hopes of improving.
It’s ridiculous that there is a prerequisite of terminal illness
There’s a huge push from the right that this is unethical to offer it in the first place and that soon we are just going to let people euthanize themselves instead of “treating” them. I mean, i don’t want people to do this either, but who are we to force a choice onto someone?
It makes me worried about vulnerable people getting bullied into it somehow.
Yep - “unethical” to let people die without suffering and passing on financial ruin to loved ones, but “ethical” to kill criminals for their misdeeds. That’s superb logic from the right.
I don’t disagree with you, but I think you’re thinking US not Canada. Death penalty is not Canadian. I don’t think? And health cares free (not to say there’s not other costs associated).
We haven’t had the death penalty for decades. We stopped using it in '63 and officially abolished in '76 for civilians and '99 for things like treason.
Yes - US perspective. Whacky world view, IMO.
They love to control you. And if people had a super easy way to check out, they would lose a lot of their workforce.
I think that there needs to be better mental health services, and that doesn’t just mean throw pills their way and be done. We need to help these people, and if they find that nothing else will stop them from wanting to move on, then let them do it peacefully, instead of the more gruesome methods
That’s nice to have as an option, but it shouldn’t be a requirement to go through therapy first. The problem is the world is shitty. If people don’t want other people pushing the power button, make the world not shitty. Let’s not always put the burden on the victim to simply learn to accept life.
I think everyone has the right to say, “this is what I want from life. If I cannot have that, then I’m not interested in life.”
Right, I was just trying to say we should have that option of support where therapy might be beneficial and avoid them passing away. I really don’t want someone to suffer in this world being alive, but If I was the person talking to them I’d like to offer helping them, and real help.
Well, that’s nice of you. But the world is a cruel place to a lot of people, and I think a good chunk of them would power off today if they could.
yes, and back to the main topic MAID should be offered to those who would instead use a more gruesome method…my uncle did that and it shattered our family
One step at the time.
Making euthanasia legal for people with terminal illness is already hard enough and I’m glad it is now possible in a lot of countries.
Some of us want out now.
There were issues early on and people who shouldn’t have been offered the option, got offered the option.
I mean, anyone who wants the option should have the option. The requirement should be to make an appointment.
No argument against that.
The problem was (as I understand it) the doctor didn’t read the room and it was received poorly.
Quebec has 9 million divided by Canada’s 41 = 22% by population.
Lets keep context here. The largest generation in history is at the end of their lifespan in many cases. The stats are as inflated as that generational bubble.
If allowing euthanasia is a recent change I assume there will be a large bump initially as the backlog of patients that have accumulated gets treatment. I would expect it to dwindle out over time
Whoops I just read the article and it said they legalised in 2016. I guess I’m happy for everyone whos opting for it?
Boomer generation population size outweighs gen x, millenials and gen z combined.
Not for long >:)
Now put a stop to Albertan oil and you’ll be a leader in climate policy
“…in Canada.” is suspiciously absent from the headline.
I’ve hearf of multiple disabled people who were “forced” into this. Because they were not able to survive on their own on disability income (which was below poverty wage) and therefore “chose” euthanasia.
(I’m not Canadian and have never been to Canada, but these are experiences that were shared in the disability advocacy org I used to work for)
Really? Where?
These were personal stories shared to me by friends and family of loved ones whom this happened too.
But a quick duckduckgo search shows a bunch of results
such as this article
The reports have received international attention for what they highlight, including patients being euthanized despite untreated mental illness and addictions, unclear medical diagnoses and suffering fuelled by housing insecurity, poverty and social marginalization. https://theconversation.com/maid-and-marginalized-people-coroners-reports-shed-light-on-assisted-death-in-ontario-241661
This is so false. My mom is going through the process now. They make sure the patient is mentally stable when interviewing for this, interview them multiple times, interview family and get their input. If they dont have green lights from everyone involved they get denied, even if they are suffering. My mom had to apply 3 times.
The stat is overinflated. Boomer generation population size outweighs gen x, millenials and gen z combined.
Dunno why this comment is so heavily down voted, m8 didn’t even state an opinion
Because it’s absolutely hearsay and for those of us who have had family go through the MAID program, absolutely fucking false.
For some reason a lot of leftists are extremely ableist and fail to listen to disabled people’s experiences. (It’s even worse on the right of course, but you’d have expected the left to be less discriminatory)
“Assisted dying” has historically been used to genocide disabled people against their will and there still are massive problems with how it is currently implemented.
What does everyone here think about it? I know it’s typically seen as progressive, although so was eugenics in the early 1900s.
My gut feeling tells me this is wrong. I can’t judge someone for wanting to die while in pain and maybe I would think differently if it were me or my family member. But I think human life is something sacred and that we all have a duty to ourselves and to each other to live for as long as we can.
Maybe it’s just some built-in religious indoctrination from growing up Catholic, but I’m scared that this will eventually de-stigmatize suicide.
We call it “self-assisted euthanasia” but this is essentially legalizing companies to assist in suicides.
Canadian here. I’m all for it, so long as the person isn’t doing it from lack of access to services that would improve their condition. It’s a question of bodily autonomy and denying MAID is no different than denying abortion.
I’m watching my gramps die right now. His life sucks. He hates it. Taking care of him is a burden.
If he wanted to die, who would I be to tell him no? It’s just torture at that point.
IMO, the logic behind euthanasia being wrong is the same as the logic behind thinking abortions are wrong.
It should not be taken lightly, but it sure as hell should be an option. If it’s not legal by the time I’m falling apart, I’m gonna find another way to off myself lol
same as the logic behind thinking abortions are wrong
I don’t consider a fetus a human life so I don’t see it as wrong. I’m not even religious, I’d say I’m “culturally Christian” sort of like most Jews I’ve met are “culturally Jewish”
The way I view it- you’re gonna be dead for the rest of eternity. Any amount of suffering you are going through now is temporary. You will eventually die.
Of course, I know it’s easy to say that when you’re not suffering in pain like your grandfather may be. So like I said, I’m not judging and I’m holding reservations on this until I’ve thought more about it.
Really, to be frank, I think people already have the option to kill themselves. They have always had that option. What I really disagree with is giving our institutions the ability to kill people. I don’t trust our healthcare systems, I don’t trust our government, and I don’t trust all the middlemen in between. They could pressure people who don’t need to do or they could rush judgements.
I think people need to stay the hell out of other people’s business.
If MAID isn’t for you or it’s against your beliefs don’t do it.
Don’t try to take the option away from everyone because it offends your sensibilities.
Killing oneself can be very hard, especially when you’re old as hell. Nobody is going to assist or even just allow you to kill yourself because if they did, they would be committing a crime. Sure if you have a cool grandchild they might get you a deadly dose of drugs. But that’s a huge risk you’re exposing your grandchild to if they get caught.
I see your point about the suffering being temporary, but the idea of being dead forever probably doesn’t really make the suffering any easier :P
If self-assisted euthanasia (SAE) has risen from 0% to 20% of all deaths. Then “other” methods of death must have dropped equal to 20%. If that collection of “other”, is drawn-out cancer, Alzheimer’s, Parkinson’s etc. then I see this as working. If those conditions have not seen a comparative reduction, and all we’ve done is replace suicide with SAE then I think this hasn’t worked as intended.
It’s a good option to have, imo. People will try to commit suicide, even without this.
They’ll fail and become a larger burden to society in a lot of cases. Or run up medical bills and exist miserably.
With this method, folks who are interested have to clear a hurdle beyond their own emotions and survival instincts.
If they’re committed to the act, this ensures a dignified end vs many terminal conditions.
Suffering near end of life can be horribly tortuous. The ability to end the suffering on your terms with dignity is a benefit to society and those suffering.
Do you feel hospice care is a bad thing? It’s one step removed from assisted suicide in many ways.
In hospice care they often give you enough drugs to end it quickly, and instruct the caregivers to NOT call emergency services.
We’re all going to die, at least we can make it somewhat civil.
Why should someone be obligated to live as long as they can, at the expense of their quality of life?
I have a friend with a terminal illness who opted for MAID. I’m so thankful that option was available because he was in so much pain at the end. It makes a huge difference to be able to choose a dignified death, surrounded by people you love and who love you.
You’re a very fortunate person and I hope things stay that way for you.
Please do not presume that your good fortune has granted you the wisdom to make decisions for those who have not been so blessed.
As long as it’s something only the person themselves can authorize, either at the time or ahead of time via end-of-life planning (e.g. it can’t be authorized like other medical procedures via power-of-attorney or a parent making that particular medical decision for a child, etc), I’m all for it.
Basically, “my body, my choice”. No one asked to come into the world, and if they want to leave it painlessly and with dignity, I feel it should be their right to do so.
As long as it’s something only the person themselves can authorize, either at the time or ahead of time via end-of-life planning
So let’s imagine an individual. They go through a period of 1 or 2 years where they are in pain and suicidal. They go through all the checks and procedures that we put in place and doctors clear them for execution. They end up dead.
What if that individual were going through a slump of 2 years and afterwards they would have passed through that life phase and could have been happy and had a positive experience with life again.
How could we know? This is the issue I have. It’s sort of like selling fentanyl to addicts. Yeah, it’s their body their choice. Yeah, they know the risks of overdose. But they’re addicted. They aren’t necessarily acting rationally.
I’m not trying to tell anyone they’re wrong. To be honest, I don’t really know how I feel about this in general, I’m just laying out my thoughts.
For reference, I’m not trying to change your mind so much as defend my position on the matter.
What if that individual were going through a slump of 2 years and afterwards they would have passed through that life phase and could have been happy and had a positive experience with life again.
To me, that’s a lot of unknowns. And depending on the level of pain, physical and/or emotional, asking me to “stick it out” for a few years is a BIG ask with no guarantee at the end of it, and I would be suffering all the while. Think of it like how some people refuse chemo when diagnosed with cancer. It’s a grueling process with no guarantee at the end. Some opt to not go through that preferring to make the best of the time they have left untreated.
The only one who can really know if it’s worth it is the person. While it’s definitely something that affects more than them (family, friends, etc), those issues, IMO, are “family meeting” issues that should be left to those affected and not the law.
Edit: On a personal note, I think I would much prefer having the option of one last adventure and then a painless, planned ending (everything wrapped up, no burdens for my family, etc) than the thought of wasting away, forgotten, in a nursing home.
A counter example that came to my mind is rabies. Look up how that progresses. There’s absolutely zero chance that I would be putting myself through that if I were diagnosed with it and it was too late for the vaccine. Assisted dying just ensures that nobody has to go through the trauma of finding my body.
As long as it’s something only the person themselves can authorize, either at the time or ahead of time via end-of-life planningSo let’s imagine an individual. They go through a period of 1 or 2 years where they are in pain and suicidal. They go through all the checks and procedures that we put in place and doctors clear them for execution. They end up dead.
First off, using the word “execution” is pretty loaded. I just wanted to put that out there, especially because you’re, “not trying to tell anyone they’re wrong.”
Second, as of right now, MAID for mental illness on it’s own is not available in Canada.
The big thing you said, but kind of glossed over is, “doctors clear them”. It’s not just on the individual who is making this decision, but health care professionals who use their professional opinion on the mental state of the individual. If a person is suicidal, generally a mental health care professional is involved.
Obviously, this system isn’t perfect, but no system is perfect. Doctors do mess up and individuals can be influenced by their families/finances. I think these are all good reasons to be skeptical, but I also don’t think they’re reasons to completely prevent access.
First off, using the word “execution” is pretty loaded. I just wanted to put that out there, especially because you’re, “not trying to tell anyone they’re wrong.”
well that’s one of the things i take issue with. the ideological approach we take to this. we start using nice sound names and acronyms - euphemisms- and it can sort of hide what we are doing. the words we use matter. unrelated tangent- they’ve done a study in the US. you ask people whether or not they support a “death tax” and a majority will say of course not. you ask them whether they support an “inheritance tax” and all of a sudden support is flipped. do you see what I mean? the language matters.
and the fact that everyone that we are coming up with these acronyms like “MAID” (which is new to me, by the way. I’ve only ever heard doctor assisted suicide up until this point) i think shows that as a society we are trying to avoid some of the conversation about this. euphemisms disguise what we are really doing and they disguise what we really feel. this may be for good intentions (empathy or what have you) but road to hell is paved with good intentions
It’s not just on the individual who is making this decision, but health care professionals who use their professional opinion on the mental state of the individual. If a person is suicidal, generally a mental health care professional is involved.
and doctors in the past have cleared the compulsory sterilization of individuals in Canada (and many other places). i have immediate family members who are doctors. some of the beliefs they hold would offend many in this thread. just because they went through medical school and trained and have above average intelligence- does not mean they will necessarily be on the right side of history.
I think these are all good reasons to be skeptical, but I also don’t think they’re reasons to completely prevent access.
i understand this. someone is suffering in pain in a way that life is unlivable. they are terminal so they are going to die anyway. I would not be able to deny them death if they is what they wanted. I wouldn’t. So I’m not even saying we shouldn’t have this policy. I just think if we do implement it, it needs to be limited to those types of cases specifically. Once we start moving into people who aren’t terminal and people who are suffering from mental health exclusively, I think we would have opened a box we can’t close.
especially because you’re, “not trying to tell anyone they’re wrong.”
i’m honest to God just trying to look into this at a deeper level. I try to be civil, I try to be empathetic with those who have suffering loved ones (I have also had suffering loved ones, in fact I have some going through something right now). I’m amazed at the level of response I’ve gotten to my off-hand comment. I’ve never gotten a fraction of the response on any lemmy comment I’ve written before.
I fear we are not ready as a society for this. that this may open the door for horrific consequences further down the road.
Sit by the bedside of a loved one as they die in agony that can only be even partially controlled by keeping them comatose. You’ll likely soon come to the conclusion that we shouldn’t be trying to just live ‘as long as we can’, but as long as we can well.
There often comes a time when the rest of a person’s life will consist only of barely managed pain, suffering, indignity and imminent death. It should be up to the person living that to decide if it is worth it, and and up to the medical profession to deliver a peaceful end if that is what they want.
There are plenty of issues that need to be worked through before it is possible, particularly around coercion, deliberate or accidental, and how it is delivered, but they must be worked through if we are to consider ourselves humane. When an animal we care about is suffering, with no hope of relief, we can make the choice to end their lives to alleviate the suffering, we should be able to do the same for ourselves.
Think about the suffering that we were forcing on people by not allowing people to choose to die.
Life is important, but living with constant pain or a useless body and no way to improve is barely living.
People should be able to make their own choice about their situation.
Have you ever had to watch a family member decline though? What about a pet? How did you treat that pet? Did you prolong their suffering and watch them slowly die unable to eat or drink or did you do something about it so they did not have to suffer? Why are humans different if they themselves, sound of mind, choose to end their own suffering?
An acquaintance of mine’s relative chose to go this way due to ALS. It was their choice and the last year was hell on the family, even though the relative had selected assisted dying.
Before modern medicine, how exactly do you think they handled grandma who was losing her marbles and lived in a one room farmhouse with the rest of the family? Especially if they’re violent and nasty. Is it right to withhold care/food/water and let nature take its course? Is that murder? Was there murder or suicide? Lots of this stuff has happened throughout history within the privacy of a family. People were likely more “religious” back then but we didn’t have the regulations or medical oversight to document things as such. Likely they just told people that their relative died of natural causes, buried them on the family plot and were done with it.
It is hell to witness the pain and confusion someone you love has when they have a degenerative disease and the Herculean effort it takes to care for someone in a condition like this. A family simply cannot do this alone without paying an exorbitant amount of money for medical and support staff - around the clock.
It’s like anything else in history:
- Ban abortion and abortion still happens, but without any shred of dignity, humanity or compassion.
- Ban drugs and guess what, they still exist on a dangerous black market.
- People still kill themselves without the help of medical assistance in dying. This just provides a path to dignity and closure for the person and their family for those who choose it. And I’m sure if you’re intent on ending your life, you don’t give a fuck about the stigma.
Wouldn’t it be a good thing to “de-stigmatize” suicide? So people can talk about it and we have more of a chance to intervene with people who do not have a lethal disease?
Everyone I have encountered who brings up “suicide is never an option” in relation to issues like this has never had to witness it. I’m 100% going out this way if I ever have a lethal disease.
But I think human life is something sacred and that we all have a duty to ourselves and to each other to live for as long as we can.
Why does length even come into it? This may be an argument from absurdity, but imagine someone born with such a debilitating birth defect that the only way to keep them alive beyond a few minutes is by putting them in a machine that keeps them alive. They have a fully functioning brain but are fully encased in this machine and only experience darkness and pain. At what point does their life become meaningful? 50 years? 80? If doctors can keep them alive for 2000 years, is that life better or worse than if they died after 6 minutes?
What I am getting at is that the length of the life has very little to do with its quality. And when it comes to medically assisted dying, almost nothing to do with it as people have to be over 18 with demonstrably low quality of life.
I’m scared that this will eventually de-stigmatize suicide.
Why is that a problem? Like, our first priority should be providing good healthcare (and that includes mental healthcare), but if someone doesn’t want to live anymore, why is it anyone’s business but their own? That sounds to me like the most important of human freedoms. Being kept alive against one’s will seems like the most horrible, criminal, torture.
We call it “self-assisted euthanasia” but this is essentially legalizing companies to assist in suicides.
And what do companies have to do with it? Companies don’t come into it at all in MAID.
And what do companies have to do with it?
We live in capitalist countries. Anything and everything will have money involved. Even public healthcare involves money changing hands with private contractors and such. There is no way to get around this fact. And wherever money changes hands it creates the potential for perverse incentives that we are possibly opening the door wide open for.
What I am getting at is that the length of the life has very little to do with its quality.
I see what you’re saying. I think if somebody cannot sustain life by themselves in a practical sense, then it’s a different scenario. For example someone being born in the scenario you outlined would not live without intervention. However, we are talking about the inverse. A body that would otherwise survive (at least for the near future) and we are artificially ending it.
It feels wrong to me in both scenarios. A sort of symmetry in a way.
but if someone doesn’t want to live anymore, why is it anyone’s business but their own?
I think here I need to separate two groups of people. 1) somebody who has a terminal illness and is in pain. I think in these scenarios, I am more open to the idea. 2) people who are depressed or in some sort of chronic pain who otherwise could live a full life
In the 2nd scenario, I think that suicidal thoughts is a mental illness. It’s not something healthy adjusted people think, even when they are in pain. By indulging in their desire, we are doing them a disservice. Like I brought up before, I made the analogy to addiction.
When someone is addicted, they make the conscious decision to use a drug. It’s their body, it’s their choice. They have the autonomy to do whatever they like- even if that choice is going to kill them. For example with fentanyl leading to an eventual overdose.
I think we, as a society, need to take care of these people. We need to provide them treatment and get them off the drugs. The solution isn’t just to put them in a box and give them a ton of drugs so they can use until they die. To me, it feels like we’re throwing away their human dignity in the name of individualism. We should take care of each other, not indulge each other’s worst thoughts and actions.
This is what makes me feel wrong about this.
A body that would otherwise survive (at least for the near future) and we are artificially ending it.
Just because the body can keep going doesn’t mean it’s a worthwhile life. Imagine yourself lying in a hospital, conscious but unable to move, unable to speak coherently, unable to even control your bowels. Add unending pain to the mix. What life is that? You would condemn a person in that state to perpetual torture just because ending their suffering “feels wrong” to you? Forcing that person to continue living if they don’t want to feels a lot more wrong to me.
- people who are depressed or in some sort of chronic pain who otherwise could live a full life
These are medical problems that should obviously be treated medically as a first resort. But a lot of those situations have no solution and a full life is not possible. Chronic pain, even when it wont kill you, is incredibly damaging to the psyche and limiting to one’s quality of life. Depression isn’t just someone feeling sad - it’s a physiological condition that there might be no recovering from. If someone (in cooperation with medical professionals) determines that there will never be a significant improvement to their quality of life, who are you to tell them they can’t end it?
To me, it feels like we’re throwing away their human dignity in the name of individualism.
Dying with dignity is the main goal of medically assisted death. There is no dignity in living months or years wishing, pleading, praying for death but not dying, or worse: being kept alive against your will.
We live in capitalist countries. Anything and everything will have money involved. Even public healthcare involves money changing hands with private contractors and such. There is no way to get around this fact. And wherever money changes hands it creates the potential for perverse incentives that we are possibly opening the door wide open for.
In this case, corporations oppose MAID because sick and dying people need a lot of very expensive health care (skilled nursing, hospice care, etc) so they would much rather force them to stay alive in order to continue profiting off them.
> And what do companies have to do with it?We live in capitalist countries. Anything and everything will have money involved. Even public healthcare involves money changing hands with private contractors and such. There is no way to get around this fact. And wherever money changes hands it creates the potential for perverse incentives that we are possibly opening the door wide open for.
It’s not like these perverse incentives don’t exist without MAID. Nursing Homes, etc. have an incentive to keep people alive and in their care as long as possible.
It’s not like these perverse incentives don’t exist without MAID
sure but it doesn’t take too much imagination to come up with some dystopian futures where human life is not treated with the sanctity that we are used to
i think maybe that’s my key objection here. it uncorks this wine bottle that cannot be resealed. we are forever fundamentally changing our relationship with death and destigmatizing the act of snuffing out a life.
i think it’s something most people have not really put much thought into the long term implications of this ideological shift
If it is the standard of care for pets and other animals who cannot communicate their needs to us directly, shouldn’t it also be the standard of care for people, who can communicate their desires and needs.
I appreciate that you’re looking for discussion, however, I’m hung up on this is the part of your comment:
But I think human life is something sacred and that we all have a duty to ourselves and to each other to live for as long as we can.
I also grew up Catholic, and agree that “human life is something sacred.” However, I’d ask you to consider why you think human is sacred, and what about it is sacred? IMHO, our lives are a gift, and we should appreciate that gift by not squandering our lives, by enjoying life and by trying to share that joy with others. If someone is in extreme and unending pain, it would be extremely difficult for them to bring joy into the world and instead their lives often just introduce suffering for themselves, their loved ones, and their caretakers.
I know one of the arguments against this is that even terminally ill patients sometimes experience miracle recoveries. Similarly, when dealing with terminal illness, there’s a concept know as the “Last Good Day”. My Grandmother had one, where she was nearly comatose for months, had a medical emergency and nearly died, then perked up the next day, was lucid and talking, then died a week later. However, I don’t think we should force people to suffer in the vague hopes that they might have another good day, or in the vaguer hope that they experience a miracle recovery.
I know this gets into a bit of a slippery slope fallacy, but I’d be curious what your opinion is on DNRs and other forms of with-holding care. I personally don’t think those options are all that different than MAID, though I will acknowledge it’s the difference of action vs inaction. Personally, I think both action and inaction are decisions, as the Canadian band, Rush says in Freewill, “If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.”
As a Canadian who has watched a loved one die very slowly and spent a fair amount of time in hospice I changed my mind about wanting to fight to the bitter end.
My mother in law was a lovely lady, but unable to really face her death. Seeing what others were going through she begged us to not let that be her but the rules are she and she alone needed to sign off on the paperwork while she was lucid. We couldn’t set that up for her, she needed to do it herself… And she couldn’t face it and she missed her window.
The last week of her life was hell. She was so weak from not eating due to her cancer that she fell and hurt her hip. Thing people don’t really tell you about wasting away is your brain essentially becomes too energy expensive to run. She lost the ability to understand what was going on around her and had to be restrained in the bed so she wouldn’t try to get up and she, unable to interpret what was happening, started making escape attempts throughout the day and night frequently crying in pain. She begged like a small child for us to help her and looked at us like monsters because we couldn’t. She had been one of the most staunchly independent people I had known and she spent her last week in agony and all of us were powerless watching knowing it was the last thing she wanted.
I was so thankful for the Hospice care. I realized it could have been so much worse if her care was expensive or wasn’t handled with such an incredible standard of compassion… But the experience left all of us close to my MIL more than a little traumatized.
It’s important to realize that these decisions are intensely personal. I would not wish what happened to my MIL on my worst enemy. Depictions of death in media do not adequately prepare you for the potential realities of every situation. That perceived duty to live as long as you can isn’t always a kindness.
I appreciate the personal anecdote. I believe in cases like the one you detailed, assisted suicide is not only morally justified but I think perhaps even obligatory. It does sound horrific and I can only imagine how horrific it feels to be that person going through that period of time.
When I say duty to live, I’m more speaking to those who are not terminally ill. Another user brought up a good point where what we need to do is look at the death % rates and see how they shifted. For example, if 20% of people now die from assisted suicide, do 20% less people die from cancer and other similar diseases? Then assisted suicide is for all intents and purposes relegated to terminally ill patients.
If the number, however, is let’s say 15% less people die from cancer, that would imply 5% more people are dying because of assisted suicide than would have otherwise died. This is the part I’m scared of.
Again, I appreciate your comment. It must have been a profound thing to witness. For good and for bad.
In the articles I have read the terms “raised alarms” does a lot of work. Yes a lot of Christian groups “raise alarms” but that’s a little toothless when there is a history of a lot of sects believing that suicide, regardless of it’s circumstances, is a gateway to hell. The median age of people taking up the offer on assisted suicide is at age 78.
We as a country have a massive die off occurring as the youngest of the Baby Boomers, one of the biggest ever generations in our country’s history… Is now reaching retirement age. There is a steep change in how the body ages and metabolizes things around age 60 and there’s a bit of an expected die off that accompanies that change. Considering the Canadian government and population is particularly sensitive to watchdoging any potential genocide or eugenics programs the system is designed with a lot of checks and balances. You need two doctors who are unrelated to each other’s practice to sign off on even starting the process which takes about a year to complete if you are not terminally ill. Any particular spikes in pairs of potentially colluding doctors who sign off together on the paperwork too often trigger an investigation.
Part of the cultural development of the last two decades has been fallout from the government admiting that they and the Catholic Church were jointly responsible for a genocide of the indigenous peoples. While keeping a weather eye on the program is merited a lot of the controversy is more towards the end of people wanting a scary bogeyman to point to in order to erode faith in the Government when really the system is one that was heavily advocated for and was very carefully designed. While concern is natural… It’s also good to do the reading to explore the depths of the system’s design and implementation and know that it was from the get go in conversation with ethical watchdogs and is under review since it’s inception to monitor the effect it is having. “Somebody warns scary numbers are scary” is basically the imperative of the media who only gets paid when you pay attention to them and scary, half explained things is one of the noisemakers that is effective.
Sometimes, you’re tired of fighting and you just want it all to end. All this does is make it painless and quick. Which is merciful.
If someone in end stage cancer wants to press the fast forward button I will help them. That is a horrible way to go and forcing people to suffer through it as long as possible isn’t what’s best for them. It just makes the people around them feel better.
I’m much less of a fan of opening it up to mental illness, combined with pushes to reintroduce institutionalization I see a lot of potential for abuse.
I can sort of agree suicide is a permanent solution to what may be temporary problems. All for it for terminal illness but having been depressed before and had friends who were many would have taken this route and not lived to see happier days. I agree with personal choice philosophically but there are so many externalities that need to be solved first: poverty, mental health care etc before this can be implemented
What does everyone here think about it?
Very wrong for government to get involved with that part of life. I recall hearing a story about something similar from the UK, where two sons ended up “rescuing” their mother from an end-of-life home where she was not given the very basic care that would have actually solved her health problems, because dying was seen as a medically viable option. Eugenics was also very popular in the mid 1900s, but was abandoned not because it was a bad idea in theory, but rather because people were nowhere near responsible enough to administer such a program in practical application.
You do understand how your example is different though, right?
By “end-of-life” home I’m assuming you mean hospice, which is absolutely not the same as medical assistance in dying (MAiD). I don’t know the story, however, hospices exist in many countries. Hospices do not provide “very basic [medical] care” - they are there to manage pain, manage symptoms to an extent, and provide a comfortable space for that person to die. If the family did not agree that their family member should have been in hospice they needed to seek a second opinion. Hospices are not there to cure someone’s medical condition. If you go into one it is because you are imminently dying.
The mistake of the medical staff in putting this person in hospice is not the same as someone who is of sound mind, learns that they have a terminal disease, and chooses for themselves to go through the medical assistance in dying process.
MAiD is a process with multiple checks and balances with multiple levels of oversight. You are able to opt out at any time prior to the final event.
idea in theory, but rather because people were nowhere near responsible enough to administer such a program in practical application
What I find interesting is that nowadays we see eugenics in a bad light. Back then most progressive liberals endorsed it. But the Catholic church- condemned the idea of eugenics. It was seen as an affront to God’s creation. Us artificially manipulating something that should not be manipulated.
I agree with your statement above. I don’t trust our institutions. I believe people will fall through the cracks and will get killed unnecessarily. Suicide is a permanent thing that you can not undo. It’s a similar reason I have misgivings about capital punishment.
Eugenics is completely different — in fact, it’s the polar opposite of MAID. Conflating the two is like arguing that rape and sex are the same thing.
I’m not comparing eugenics with euthanasia. I’m comparing the perception of what “progressive” meant back then to right now.
The point I’m trying to make is that just because something is considered progressive today does not mean it won’t be considered barbaric tomorrow. This is why I don’t immediately support something just because it appears to have a veneer of idealism. I think it through carefully.
I’m not comparing eugenics with euthanasia. I’m comparing the perception of what “progressive” meant back then to right now.
… by comparing eugenics and MAID. There are lots of things that were considered progressive back then (e.g. workers’ rights) that are still considered progressive today. Why did you specifically pick eugenics as an example only to then say it isn’t like MAID?
… by comparing eugenics and MAID
Definition of compare: To consider or describe as similar, equal, or analogous; liken.
Nowhere did I say eugenics is similar, equal or analogous to euthanasia. You can go ahead and read the comments again, you won’t find it.
What we are comparing is the societal perception of eugenics in the early 1900s and the perception of euthanasia now.
Why did you specifically pick eugenics as an example only to then say it isn’t like MAID?
To make the point that just because something seems progressive on its face doesn’t necessarily mean it will stand the test of time. It is an example. I think it’s a good example because of how relatively horrible eugenics seems today relative to how positively it was seen in the past. Perhaps you could find other examples, I’d be happy to hear them.
All I’m saying about euthanasia/assisted suicide/whatever acronym you wanna give it- is that it must be judged on its own merits outside of groupthink. That’s what I’m attempting to do here, discuss the idea on its own merits. I think that’s what you actually have an issue with, not the feigned pearl clutching about some comparison.
Nowhere did I say eugenics is similar, equal or analogous to euthanasia. You can go ahead and read the comments again, you won’t find it.
Then why bring it up? Why don’t we discuss your favourite chicken soup recipe while we’re at it?
it must be judged on its own merits outside of groupthink
“Groupthink” is to presume we’d have the right to deny them agency over their person. MAID is the ultimate expression of bodily autonomy.
That’s what I’m attempting to do here, discuss the idea on its own merits.
Except you are not. You haven’t actually discussed MAID itself other than saying it generally makes you feel icky. What you have talked about at length is eugenics, despite your claim that eugenics are irrelevant to the topic at hand. Can you explain why you’re against MAID without referring to eugenics or any other historical issue?
