God I am just legitimately bored with all of history being viewed through this particular Marxist lens. France and the US heavily influenced Marx’s revolution framework, not the other way around. You can make a pretty strong argument that Marx’s fundamental ignorance and misunderstanding of these events significantly influenced his fundamentally broken revolutionary model, which has very obviously held back his largely sound economic theory.
Yes, the cold war interventionalism by the US was very often bad. Geopolitical forces in the new nuclear era must have been pretty nuts, but I’m not going to defend most things done in the name of liberal democracy which forces autocracy onto others. To be honest, as a democratic socialist, I happen feel the same way about socialism as well. You will never free people by creating a dictatorship, be it of the proletariat or otherwise.
When reading Marx please keep in mind that not only did he write in German, which has been translated… but if you have read his works he often heavily utilizes foot notes to explain what he means be certain things and at times will take an entire section building up an argument that is later summarized into a more concise statement. My first reaction to “dictatorship of proletariat” was negative, but reading more about his meaning is important.
Did Marx get some things wrong, sure however, while I will never say “everyone has to read this” I will say that “everyone who wants to oppose Marx should actually understand it to a level that probably requires reading”
I’m quite aware of this interpretation and have read plenty on the topic. It is nearly undeniable that in practice, revolutionary communist movements have legitimately produced dictatorships quite often. People need to stop making excuses for Stalin and Mao. The world deserves a better class of communist, in the same way it deserves a better class of liberal.
Like, have you read Lenin yourself?
“Civil war gives the proletariat practice at arms!”
Are you fucking kidding me? You cannot possibly be more glib about violence, or more boorishly modernist .
Forget it, you said you are a democratic socialist right? Don’t fight loosing arguments about history with people. Shut them up with this one argument.
“I will defend every seemingly communist country and their actions, only after you defend every capitalist nation and all of their actions. Simple enough right?”
I’m not interested in defending any atrocities anywhere. Or making tyrants into folk heroes.
My goal is simply to find a single leftist space on the internet which doesn’t just pretend like a century’s worth of real academic criticism of democratic centralism and associated revolutionary praxis doesn’t really exist, and anyone who expresses such criticism must simply be poorly informed and hasn’t read enough… Lenin. It’s misplaced and undeserved elitism at its finest. Or just a weird revolution fetish, it’s hard to tell sometimes. If you can feel my eyes rolling through the screen, it’s because, as I said previously, I’m tired of having this same conversation over and over again.
God I am just legitimately bored with all of history being viewed through this particular Marxist lens. France and the US heavily influenced Marx’s revolution framework, not the other way around. You can make a pretty strong argument that Marx’s fundamental ignorance and misunderstanding of these events significantly influenced his fundamentally broken revolutionary model, which has very obviously held back his largely sound economic theory.
Yes, the cold war interventionalism by the US was very often bad. Geopolitical forces in the new nuclear era must have been pretty nuts, but I’m not going to defend most things done in the name of liberal democracy which forces autocracy onto others. To be honest, as a democratic socialist, I happen feel the same way about socialism as well. You will never free people by creating a dictatorship, be it of the proletariat or otherwise.
Dude, dictatorship of proletariat doesn’t mean what you think it does.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1919/sep/x02.htm
When reading Marx please keep in mind that not only did he write in German, which has been translated… but if you have read his works he often heavily utilizes foot notes to explain what he means be certain things and at times will take an entire section building up an argument that is later summarized into a more concise statement. My first reaction to “dictatorship of proletariat” was negative, but reading more about his meaning is important.
Did Marx get some things wrong, sure however, while I will never say “everyone has to read this” I will say that “everyone who wants to oppose Marx should actually understand it to a level that probably requires reading”
I’m quite aware of this interpretation and have read plenty on the topic. It is nearly undeniable that in practice, revolutionary communist movements have legitimately produced dictatorships quite often. People need to stop making excuses for Stalin and Mao. The world deserves a better class of communist, in the same way it deserves a better class of liberal.
Like, have you read Lenin yourself?
“Civil war gives the proletariat practice at arms!”
Are you fucking kidding me? You cannot possibly be more glib about violence, or more boorishly modernist .
Forget it, you said you are a democratic socialist right? Don’t fight loosing arguments about history with people. Shut them up with this one argument.
“I will defend every seemingly communist country and their actions, only after you defend every capitalist nation and all of their actions. Simple enough right?”
If they say some shit like “Well I’m not arguing for another trail of tears, I just think the economic system of capitalism is better”
Just respond with “Good, so your alignment with a type of economic system or model still leaves plenty of room for variations on policy🤔”
I’m not interested in defending any atrocities anywhere. Or making tyrants into folk heroes.
My goal is simply to find a single leftist space on the internet which doesn’t just pretend like a century’s worth of real academic criticism of democratic centralism and associated revolutionary praxis doesn’t really exist, and anyone who expresses such criticism must simply be poorly informed and hasn’t read enough… Lenin. It’s misplaced and undeserved elitism at its finest. Or just a weird revolution fetish, it’s hard to tell sometimes. If you can feel my eyes rolling through the screen, it’s because, as I said previously, I’m tired of having this same conversation over and over again.