I was talking to my manager the other day, discussing the languages we are using at $dayjob. He kind of offhandedly said that he thinks TypeScript is a temporary fad and soon everything will go back to using JavaScript. He doesn’t like that it’s made by Microsoft either.
I’m not a frontend developer so I don’t really know, but my general impression is that everything is moving more and more towards TypeScript, not away from it. But maybe I’m wrong?
Does anyone who actually works with TypeScript have any impression about this?
If TypeScript still is a fad at this point, his definition of fad is far lengthier than mine is.
I’m fairly sure TypeScript will remain in popular use longer than whatever project you’re working on 😅
No, because raw-dogging JavaScript isn’t something grown-up software shops do.
[Object object] would like a word
Can’t they just use JSDoc?
In a small company with a non-complex product, there is a chance that TS creates more slowdowns than not.
In a large company with multiple cooks in the kitchen and a complex product, I’m personally of the mindset that there is substantial gain from typescript. I’ve had coworkers tell me it’s bullshit, and then I do the smallest lift possible to convert and the amount of bugs it reveals are insane.
Is it necessary? No, probably not. But unless everyone’s a 10/10 dev working on the world’s simplest product, why not just do it and enjoy the benefits?
INB4 JavaScript blahblah, yeah I’ve added type hints to pure JS projects too and discovered bugs. At this point I don’t get it. Typical resistance I get is that it’s too prescriptive and lacks JS’s dynamic nature - well, fuck off, I don’t want to read through 200+ lines of code where you’re changing types and shit on me willy-nilly.
Id rather quit than go back to pure JavaScript.
When anyone in a professional setting says they don’t like having a mega corp supporting something I lose a bit of respect for their opinion tbh.
Yes we all know mega corps suck.
But if you’re using anything in a professional production environment that is meant to last in the long term this is 100% what you want.
Some of us are old enough to remember the browser wars and EEE, so I definitely understands not wanting to be sucked into some mega corps eco system with future lock-ins. Often you can’t do anyhhing else, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t suck.
As long as JavaScript is being used, TypeScript will be used. It makes writing JavaScript tolerable.
Imo they’ll add typing to vanilla js, which will kill ts.
And the ts devs support this
And I’m sure Microsoft would be happy to not have to do it anymore. And I personally would much prefer an actual typing system rather than a glorified linter.
Tho I wonder if it will end up being like jQuery, in the sense that, by the time core jQuery features got added to vanilla js, jQuery had developed new features that validated its continued existence. Maybe TS will go further than what gets absorbed into JS and keep it alive.
Honestly, I’ve never used jQuery despite writing JS for over 10 years. Just because I hate the reliance on massive nebulous packages so many have. Especially when I looked into it years ago, so much of what I saw jQuery being used for was stuff that was extremely easy to implement yourself. How has it changed?
jQuery is a lot smaller and less nebulous than its competitors (looking at you,
Reactliterally every JavaScript framework).Jquery was what was popular when i learned js. I’m kinda glad it was, honestly: jQuery is a little unique in that it doesn’t have magic to it the way js frameworks do. Everything you can do in jQuery, you can do in vanilla JavaScript pretty easily. With, say, React, how is a newcomer supposed to understand how a series of React components become HTML?
So jQuery kept it “real” for me. Fewer abstractions between me and the HTML meant it was easier for me to connect the dots as a self taught developer.
As for how it’s changed, it’s more any how vanilla JavaScript has changed. A lot of the things that made jQuery so much easier and cleaner than vanilla are now baked in, like document.querySelector(), element.classList, createElement(), addEventListener()… It had Ajax methods that, before jQuery, were a tremendous pain in the ass.
jQuery was great, but, you basically had to use it with something like PHP, because it had no back end. So when angular came out (and a few others that aren’t around anymore and I’ve forgotten), it allowed you to replace both PHP and jQuery, and developers rejoiced.
Why did they rejoice? I’m not actually sure there was reason to, objectively speaking. As developers, we like new tech, especially if that new tech requires us to think about code differently, even if, in retrospect, it’s a hard argument to make to say that, if we had just stuck with PHP and jQuery we would be somehow worse off than we are with React.
Of course, in tech, when a new system changes how we think, sometimes (not as often as we’d like) it helps us reconsider problems and find much more elegant solutions. So, would we have all the innovations we have today if all these js frameworks has never existed? Obviously we can’t really answer that – but it’s a toke of copium for when we get nostalgic for the PHP/jQuery days.
(Also, for you newer people reading this, you should probably be aware that the PHP/jQuery mini-stack is still very quietly used. You’ll definitely see it, especially in php-baaed COTS.)
Thanks for informing me, but I still kinda wonder why someone would use it today?
the can’t add proper typing without adding a compiler. Whatever they add will be closer to puthon’s type hints. I’ve had to write primary in python lately and type hints help very very slightly, and tools like pyright catch so many false errors due to lack of hints in libraries that we’re forced to add ignore statements on too many lines. I genuinely don’t understand how there can be so many languages and all of them be painful to use
I genuinely don’t understand how there can be so many languages and all of them be painful to use
What about kotlin?
yes I heard it’s great. Scala was one language where I didn’t constantly feel like getting hit in the head with a hammer and I’ve heard Kotlin has a similar experience. I’m not interested in Android development so I haven’t tried it
Kotlin isn’t just for Android; IMO unless you’re trying to do purely functional programming, it’s preferable to Scala for JVM work.
I have very minimal pain in Go
I’ve heard good things about it, looking forward to learning it (hopefully soon)
I was able to pick it up extremely quickly. Just basically looking at existing projects. Tbh, I don’t even know how I learned it.
That would be a great solution, because while I love Typescript, I hate compiled web code. One of the coolest things about the internet is that as it’s supposed to work, you can download the source code for any website you go to. It’s open source by design. I hate closed source websites and I hate compiled website code that helps close the source it’s quite a contradiction because typescript is awesome and I recognise that compilation is the only way to get it to run on our web infrastructure. So it would be great if we could just type JavaScript and solve the contradiction that way.
Doesn’t typescript compile to js anyways? Is it obfuscated?
It’s not intentionally obfuscated or minified. Generally it just strips out types and comments, but depending on how it’s configured, it will rewrite certain things to work in ES5. At my work our build process uses a separate minification and bundling step, which also serves to a obfuscate our proprietary code.
It transpiles to js and there is some level of stripping for optimization yes.
And also JS.
Well “kill” is perhaps a strong word but it definitely won’t be JS anymore at that point. The changes required to bake in strong type support would be radical.
Typescript is the only way I can agree to code in Javascript. And the only way you can have a sane project without writing double or triple the amount if unit tests for each function just to check things that a compiler would do. However it is absolutely a lipstick on a pig thing with confusing behavior sometimes, but that’s because the underlying language it is trying to make bearable is bonkers
No. Dynamic typing, though, is absolutely a fad.
Dynamic typing is not a fad.
Python is older than Java, older than me. It is still going strong.
Python also has a statically typed option these days.
Edit: Previously said “strongly” instead of “statically”
Which one? There is static typing with the
typingmodule, but that’s not strong.I should have said statically typed, fixed.
Ah, gotcha, thanks! I’d have loved a strongly-typed option.
The static typing system is slowly getting there, but many useful Python patterns can’t be expressed yet. You can, for example, write a function that appends an item to a generic tuple - but you can’t concatenate two tuples. I really hope they keep expanding on the system!
Isn’t Python already strongly typed?
No:
$ python Python 3.10.13 (main, Jan 28 2024, 03:02:00) [GCC 13.2.1 20230918 (Red Hat 13.2.1-3)] on linux Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information. >>> def handle_foo(value: list[int]) -> bool: ... return 42 ... >>> print(handle_foo(False)) 42
This just blew my mind. I had always assumed Java was older. I started writing hobby projects in Java in the 90s. I don’t think I heard about Python until the early 2000s.
“Strong”… how many actual projects run on python?
Half of the internet ( backend) runs on java, banking, your government systems, etc.
It’s not a fad, it’s just unusable for anything other than research project and small time scripting, which to be fair, it’s what it’s designed for.
You have no idea. Python (and Ruby) are used widely in the industry. Large parts of YouTube are written in Python, and large parts of GitHub are written in Ruby. And every major tech company is using Python in their offline data pipelines.
I know of systems critical to the modern web that are written in Python.
With how shit youtube is I am not sure you made a great case for python mate.
And every major tech company is using Python in their offline data pipelines
Thats a meaningless statement, ETL tools can execute python as part of a multi step process and then yeah they use python in their data pipeline, but the ETL tool that orchestrates it is which is the actual value add software is not written in Python it’s written in Java, I know this for a fact…
With how shit youtube is I am not sure you made a great case for python mate.
I’m not good with names about logical fallacies but that sure is one. You asked for “actual projects” and YouTube is one of the biggest and most popular platforms out there. That you personally dislike it is irrelevant.
ETL tools can execute python as part of a multi step process and then yeah they use python in their data pipeline, but the ETL tool that orchestrates it is which is the actual value add software is not written in Python it’s written in Java
So what’s your point, that interpreted languages don’t count because they’re interpreted? Why stop there? It’s the actual C compiler that was used to compile the JRE that brings the value here, so your ETL tool doesn’t count.
You’re either a troll or a joke.
If you dont know the difference between software and script I am not sure I can explain it to you…
That distinction is not relevant at all in this discussion.
But hey, I think that’s one I know: should count as a strawman.
I work in investment banking environments (calculations). Python is everywhere. Java and C++ as well.
Yeah calculations, not actual software… how is this hard to understand… you don’t write long lived, stable software that multiple developers work on that needs to do real work in python
So, calculations are not actual software… I’ll stop there.
No, it’s a script
Well, no
Static typing, for the win, and I’ll die on this hill.
TypeScript might not be here to stay, but typed JavaScript definitely is. I’ve switched to writing 100% TypeScript, and haven’t looked back. The fact that just adding types to one of my (admittedly more complex) libraries surfaced 3 unknown bugs was eye opening to me.
Wow, he’s living in 2012 or whatever. A true time traveler.
5 years ago everything was moving to TypeScript. Now everything has moved. Developers are still catching up, but it will be one-way traffic from here.
I’m guessing your manager thinks TypeScript is like CoffeeScript. It is not like CoffeeScript.
Also, TypeScript is only the beginning. In the halls of the tech giants most devs view TypeScript as a sticking plaster until things can be moved to webassembly. It will be a long time until that makes any dent in JS, but it will also be one-way traffic when it does.
Technicalities aside, TS is being pushed by MSFT in their SaaS custom components, and that right there will keep it relevant a while. MSFT is known for changing names a lot, but not for killing technologies.
After over 5 years of writing TS, I have had to do plain JS sometimes, and it is scary. It feels like walking blindfold. I’m spoiled.
MSFT is known for changing names a lot, but not for killing technologies.
Silverlight would like a word ;)
I hope not. I’m pretty sure me and my coworkers would be at each others’ throats if it were not for some form of typed JS holding our Frankenstein codebase together.
Typescript makes writing Javascript a reasonable thing to do. Your manager is a fad.
Your manager is a fad.
If only…
