Microsoft, doing it’s part to make the world a better place.
Or folks will just continue to use 10.
Better yet, 7
Win7 crew represent 💃💃💃
For us Linux users it’s just a fire sale. Diet cheap PCs incoming.
No it won’t.
240 million grandmas, cheapskate businesses, and cash-strapped public schools will continue to use whatever operating system their computers already have, forever, until they break, security implications be damned.
Windows
10XPTook this picture a couple of days ago:
i saw a kiosk once booting opensuse
This is a huge business opportunity for someone with the know-how. They should offer a consulting service that does the following:
- Catalogs the software your company is using.
- Identifies which ones have native Linux versions, which ones work well under WINE, and which ones will need to be replaced with either a different native application or an online equivalent.
- Installs and configures Linux with a Windows-like UI on your old systems, and gets them set up with the replacement software.
Offer a support contract that severely undercuts anything Microsoft is
gougingselling. Offer basic training, too.Anyone who does that can make bank.
Would also need to get a burner phone number w/ answering machine to take calls from 240 million grandmas, cheapskate businesses and cash-strapped public schools for any & all tech support questions until the end of time, because if there was an issue with system stability in any way whatsoever, or if the router went down or the printer stopped working, they’d assume it was the fault of ‘the guy who changed everything’.
Linux is great & everything, but this sounds like a recipe for utter disaster, not a way to make an easy buck.
I can’t agree with this more. People like to sell Linux as a magic bullet, but it does not and will not everything everyone needs without maintenance and people really like to hand wave or downplay that need.
Sure, you could find a solution for what they’re using now. What happens when they need something else and they’re so tech illiterate that they don’t even know what you did to their machine? They wouldn’t even know how to install new software, and if they did, they wouldn’t know they need to click the Linux version, etc. It’s not always about feasibility and available options, it’s often about the fact that people just won’t fucking know what to do. Even if you assume there are enough options available, they won’t know how to do so.
And every step Microsoft takes to shoot themselves in the foot, and every step Linux takes to make this easier, everyone comes screaming about how much this could change things.
But until Linux has a HUGE market share - like in the 30-70 percent range - developers are not going to take it seriously and alleviate this process. Even with how well MacOS does, this is not even a solved problem entirely there - there are still hang ups and still software that doesn’t get released for mac. Linux would have to pass where Apple is today for this to become remotely accessible to an every day person.
And even THEN there’s the question of different Linux distros.
I lived in this town and there was this"computer and pawn" place. They did this to people’s computers. I constantly had people come into the computer place I worked at very confused. Not knowing why they needed a password to install things, where is Microsoft office, how do I print, etc. Most of these people didn’t have the money to put windows back on, but, those that did, did real quick. All this did was scare people away. If we started replacing Linux on people’s computers it needs to come with a intro tech support plan and a short intro class explaining the basics.
At this point the people that benefit the most easily are those who only need email, Web browsing and or are old. People who work off their machine are going to use Windows and that former demographic usually just use their phones or a tablet now. At least in the US
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Support is a major cost/pain point, that Linux pushers just don’t get.
They’ve never worked in enterprise (or hell, even in SMB IT). Moving from windows doesn’t make sense. It’s a lot if cost, up front, to take on lots of risk.
I’m not sure Linux will ever significantly compete with Windows for the desktop. At a minumim it would require a single shell to become dominant, in addition to all the compatibility issues you mention.
Then there’s management: Windows has SCOM, with a well-established app packaging/distribution model, settings config, user management (AD/Exchange), etc, etc.
Linux is fantastic as a base OS for other stuff. Like Proxmox/TrueNAS, or to use as a server with containerized services. There’s a million ways Linux is the answer, a much better one, than Windows - largely in the server/services hosting realm
You never used Linux then. There are well defined packages in the way Windows is trying to get with their store apps and chocolatey can mimic if you build the packages. You could also look up containers, flatpaks etc. Similar to how Windows has msis and store apps and exes.
Linux has Foreman plus puppet. Or chef or Ansible. You can also use those on Windows.
The idea that a company could not decide their shell standards or their support company or people for Linux is like saying they can’t handle the competition in fleet vehicles or cloud providers or pen companies.
Like he said as the second sentence of his comment…
You’ve never worked in enterprise then.
These solutions are skipping the majority of the core problems he mentioned. And even the problem you’re trying to solve here isn’t even fully solved by this solution. You’re taking a narrow sliver of one point in his argument and arguing about that and just tossing out the rest. Even if we accepted your proposal, Linux still isn’t enough of an answer here.
What are the core problems I am skipping? That people like to bitch about Microsoft just like they bitch about gas prices but don’t take any steps to address the issue?
Look we suck it up on Windows for very specific legacy software, but every year more and more LoB apps are web apps, either we write them that way or they’re cloud versions. These all work fine on Linux and Mac, you do not need Windows.
We are even seeing companies like Autodesk provide some products on Mac, and there are competitors on Linux too.
If you actually used Microsoft in the enterprise you would also be up to speed on how they are pushing against “over management” of the fleet, and you should just use update rings and intune and stop wasting time with SCCM / MCM / Whatever it’s called this year. This argument about managibility is Microsoft 2005, not Microsoft 2025. Linux has more management now than Microsofts modern management suite, by design. And if you’re using 3rd party to fix that on windows, you are not just fighting Microsoft but you can not then disregard 3rd party on Linux.
The problem with this argument is not that I am saying you can do everything you can do with Windows on Linux, just like there’s a lot you can’t do on Windows you can on Linux. I am saying that it’s practically like Dodge vs Toyota trucks. There’s way more of an overlap than people like to admit.
Maybe there is a specific app you all are thinking of that you need Windows for, but I don’t actually think the average person needs Windows anymore except inertia. And the needs are going down as more stuff is cloud available.
Lol, ok, sure,right.
Show me a company that’s willing to take the risks you’re talking about. Because it may work today, but what happens tomorrow when they acquire another company with systems that simply aren’t linux-friendly
Laughable.
Go home, let the adults talk. Kids like you always come in with grandiose ideas thinking everyone else just doesn’t “get it”. No, we’ve seen these ideas, but there are risks, requirements, etc that you simply aren’t aware of, yet in your hubris think you know better.
“Never used Linux”, really son? Had my first UNIX class when you were shitting in your diaper, and was doing Fortran on a Sperry Rand UNIVAC well before you were born.
Any other snarky comebacks?
Oh, Linux now has package management… Like Windows did pretty much 30 years ago. Wow, yea, you really told me.
Now wait, when you pull a package, which shell is it expecting? How are dependencies controlled in your business environment? Oh, you have to build that in your distribution system? Why would anyone switch, do all that work, when they already have a Windows infrastructure that does the same?
Oh, wait, where’s CAD? How about supporting, software with license dongles that control CNC machines? Oh, yea, practically no vendor supports Linux this way.
Are you paying for all your users to learn a new system? How about all the poor performance from end users because things work differently now?
How about the thousands of spreadsheets in a company that now get mangled by Open/Libre, let alone the inability of either to handle tables (which basically every Excel spreadsheet has).
Tell me, what do you do when you meet that must-have app, with zero choice (say, regulatory compliance) that lacks a Linux option. Oh, and doesn’t like RDP?
Let’s go into a legal environment and push Linux… Oh you’ll love that.
The way you overlook basically everything speaks volumes.
I’ve been hearing “Year of the Linux Desktop” since, well, forever. After 25 years it still ain’t happened.
Have you used a modern version of Linux or Windows? You can basically use most Linuxes like Android with a guide app store, and there’s almost no way to break it. Windows also will still let you be admin and let you break it. Neither is particularly easy to break anymore.
Peripherals certainly do not just work on Windows. More and more I fight with getting anything to work on a clean Windows OS install. First I have to go find a network driver and copy it via USB. Then hope Windows will find drivers from there, which often it doesn’t get good ones for say Nvidia. Printers often take me to the manufacturer website and hope. For things like mice or Wi-Fi adapters Linux just works, same hunt for less standard stuff.
Maybe I just deal with a wider array of hardware but to say it plug and play on windows and not Linux is just not true.
For someone who just uses Facebook…there is no learning Linux. I moved my mom from XP to XFCE and Firefox just copied right over. She has a lot less issues with Enterprise Linux than she did with XP and Facebook still just works like 8 years later.
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Literally the statement was just Facebook. She doesn’t install software, nor did she on Windows. She uses Facebook. She never used Explorer so Firefox on XP to Firefox on Linux was no learning. The performance was better on Linux.
I have corrupted Windows plenty of times over the years. You’re just used to Windows so intuitively know how to fix it or not break it again.
The problem with modern computers is many don’t take a ethernet cable. They only have Wi-Fi. Maybe you are buying ones speced with a NIC but that’s a special order for most laptops, and likewise I can special order for Linux.
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I think you don’t have any idea on what modern Linux desktop is doing. For most people, installing any sort of drivers on Linux is something of the past. If you use a beginner’s friendly distro like Linux Mint or PopOS stuff like Nvidea drivers will be taken care of or you’re guided through it. Mint offers Timeshift out of the box and guides you to set it up for easy restores may you break your system one day (or an update does).
In theory, the store has virtually every application your version supports and that you ever want to use. No hunting on the internet etc. With Flatpaks, even dependency issues (however rare nowadays) are essentially a thing of the past. The user doesn’t need to know what that means, they can just click install on their application store as they’re already familiar with on their mobile device.
Doing more “complicated” stuff and breaking it is just simply your fault then. I have worked end user customer support and repair for a few years and shit like that happens all the time on Windows. Very few clean or wholly functional Windows installations I have seen. The UAC just presents you “yes/no” and install whatever the fuck you want. People click yes on everything.
I have a little headphone amp that has always been a huge fight to get to work on Windows with its drivers, but on Linux I later realized, wait, it just worked. Since Windows 10 drivers have been much better on Windows too, credit where it is due.
Linux has made enormous strides the last couple of years of becoming more general user friendly. And it’s only getting better.
Does this mean it’s all roses and happiness? No, of course not. Once a driver doesn’t quite work and you don’t have the Mint driver utility to help you out it’s a bit of a pain. You don’t need the CLI on desktop at all nowadays, but guides on how to do things usually are, because it’s universal. Problem is, the CLI scares people. Linux DEs are not Windows. It’s simply not the same, however much Mint is friendly to it, or Zorin’s efforts, it’s still different. There’s no hardware compatibility guarantees on any system, if you’re not using a Tuxedo, System76 or Framework system. App compatibility and sometimes there’s no app available. Wine and Bottles work pretty well, but that’s a little more advanced.
It’s not a drop-in replacement. That’s just how it is.
In an enterprise and business environment it’s still tricky. For personal use for a user that will happily use a Chromebook, they can use a suitable Linux distro (that’s literally what ChromeOS is btw, it being able to run Android apps was added later, it’s not Android). Yeah, don’t install Arch or god forbid, Gentoo lmao (unless you wanna have a laugh). If they do email, web-browsing, etc, and they are okay with some change, then Mint will most likely serve them pretty well.
Also, Linux runs Chrome just fine? However much it pains me, I can even install Edge right from the store lol.
Have you used a modern version of Linux or Windows? You can basically use most Linuxes like Android with a guide app store, and there’s almost no way to break it. Windows also will still let you be admin and let you break it. Neither is particularly easy to break anymore.
It’s still something that can happen. I’ve run into an issue trying to install Ubuntu onto a PC which worked fine on the live USB but installed the incorrect Nvidia driver and ended up failing to boot. Took me a whole day, even as a software engineer, to fix it and even then, that’s just to get it to display, I had to do a lot more digging to even get CUDA to run on it since I was still using an incorrect driver. I’m fine with that but I can’t imagine most people are.
Even if Windows doesn’t get the best driver for the job, more often than not it will still somewhat function for the hardware that most people use.
It’s a lot better than it used to be but there’s still issues here and there. For the average user, better the devil you know than the one you don’t.
Well it’s not like Windows hasn’t bricked some pcs with their driver updates. It does just happen sometimes. The argument I’m making is if I went to Burger King and every time I went I was disappointed in the food quality, price and speed of service I would eventually risk Wendys.
Heck my family was GM but after years of breakdowns and getting stranded by 3 different GM cars and weird / bad performance in a 4th, we changed car manufacturers.
Sometimes you ought to give up on the Devil you know if it’s costing you too much money and time.
On an individual level, having a computer is better than not having one. Even if you need a different OS.
On a societal level, we should want to limit both ewaste and insecure OSs. We could legislate MS and other vendors not to do what Microsoft is doing here. But we probably don’t want to legislate updates for 20 years or something. (maybe we do IDK). The more likely thing is kicking known EOL OSs off the internet, but then we’re back to ewaste.
I get your analogy but it’s a way larger jump going from Windows to Linux versus McDonald’s to Linux. To bring it back to what we were talking about, I think it’s more that the switch might end up costing more money and time because realistically, most people are gonna disregard the EOL status because “it still works and I can still use it”. Those who do switch are probably those who require or want an upgrade of some form.
I think your info is out of date, at least from what I see. Schools are going to Chromebooks because that’s all the budget allows. I think it’s going to be scary when these kids enter the workforce and can’t use Windows office.
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Sigh, yes everyone knows that ChromeOS is built on linux. That’s not what people mean when they say running linux.
AFAIK Chromebooks can run Office 365 (the online one, whatever it’s called now). Microsoft had to do that to try to keep Office relevant and accessible.
How do you break away from something you were programmed to use?
You don’t, you get the next generation to use your product first. They start with chromebooks in elementary school now. That’s the first computer kids will have and likely have all the way to grade 12 for school (after that is who knows what). Kids today will be programmed to use Chromebooks, not windows. That’s my point.
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yeah, other than the obvious “haha-ing in Linux” (which… I also use Linux) - the REAL answer is people will just keep using the outdated Windows until THAT computer dies it’s natural death.
It’s beating a dead horse, but there are plenty of user-friendly Linux versions out there that will run just fine on most computers that ran Windows.
Windows is still a must in my workplace though, some proprietary doesnt have linux version and runs like garbage in wine.
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They were data mining on non subscribing customers tho, in age of AI nowadays, data mining on real living people is good business
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I’ve never used them tho, most probably USA exclusive thing, i know Azure used in many countries companies on par with aws and Google cloud but it’s first time i hear about entra, didn’t know it existed
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Thank you for clarifying, good to know something new, you’re right, when they have good chunk of web under control they don’t need non subscribers no more
Some very small percentage of people will switch to Linux, the majority of people will just continue to use windows 10.
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Yes, because normal people always throw PCs away when they stop getting security updates.
Companies probably will.
Some of the biggest businesses in the world still run legacy systems somewhere in their organization. I work for one of the top 5 retail data processors in the world and we have a handful of ancient legacy apps that can’t run on anything more modern than Server 2012.
And almost none of them take the proper precautions for vulnerable systems.
I mean for fuck’s sake, Office Depot’s Southeastern regional headquarters’s HVAC system is (well as of 2019 when I last checked) is controlled by a truly decrepit Windows 2000 box THAT IS NETWORK CONNECTED!
We’re still running a CNC mill powered by DOS. It’s in great mechanical shape, the legacy software makes a specific product that we have a good market for, it’s obviously a completely standalone unit with no security concerns.
It’s kind of ridiculous actually, we’ve upgraded the mainboards and processors from 486 to Celeron, SSDs with SATA-> IDE adaptors etc but the software and the hardware drivers run on DOS and there’s no practical upgrade path. We will run her until she can’t make tooling anymore
Used to support a pick-and-place line for SMT that still ran on DOS, it’s exactly as you say. We upgraded every bit of it but when we tried to get a hold of the software co that made the instructions, and found out that all but one of them had passed away from old age and no one had the source anymore.
As far as I know they’re still using it.
Another reason I am a big proponent of Open Source.
I’ve been collecting any and all documentation pertaining to this machine and in many cases the guys I’ve ended up talking to are the only ones who haven’t retired. Fortunately everyone so far has been happy to give me a huge data dump of everything on their drives, knowing that nobody on their end will be available to support it in a few years.
What really scares me is not the software but the aging protocols that talk to obsolete hardware. Lose one of the old AC servomotor drives and good luck finding a way to integrate a modern unit. Easy enough to mate something up to the motor and feedback, not so easy to get it to speak whatever specific flavour of SERCOS was used on the machine. At least it isn’t a proprietary protocol… I’m still hoping I never have to do it.
Launching Windows 11 in the midst of a semiconductor shortage was such a dumb move on Microsoft’s part, especially when 11 doesn’t really offer that much more than 10. The only real ‘groundbreaking’ new feature (multiple desktops) was something that Linux had fifteen years ago.
The only real ‘groundbreaking’ new feature (multiple desktops) was something that Linux had fifteen years ago.
what are you talking about? if you mean virtual as the others think, both linux and windows have had that for 20 years. if you mean something else I really really want to know.
anyway it also has better wsl (backported to 10 eventually), generally better performance and battery life, etc. it also had a mac dock that prevented me from doing the upgrade for 3 years lol.
even windows xp had it with microsoft’s powertoys’ virtual desktop manager
Is “multiple desktops” different from virtual desktops? Because i’ve been using virtual desktops in Windows 10 for a while now.
I can barely keep track of my one desktop what are people doing with multiple desktops?
for work i have to have like 3 PDFs open, my IDE, a browser, etc.
it’s nice being able just switch to a clean desktop to browse the internet or write an email without messing up my window placement or getting lost in a bunch of layers.
First desktop for work/study related windows another for research/info related windows and third one for chill/media related windows, sometimes you work on more than two documents at the same time and researching theme with timeouts for chill so multiple desktops is very useful
music can stay on one workspace
work on another
messenger on another.
my alt-tab is always in the right order, and accessing specific functions like music or messaging is a whole other key sequence and muscle memory.
Windows 11 can suck my stinky cock. Windows will successfully force my LAZY ass to Linux. I am already testing the waters with my laptop.
What’s wrong with Windows 11? I use it on my gaming machine and my work laptop and it seems fine. Good, even.
It is straight up incompatible with older hardware.
And that’s before accounting for the bloat and telemetry that they have in it, and the shitty changes to the UI, etc.
Meanwhile Apple does this every few years and nobody cares.
Just thought an old MacBook to put Linux on. Thing is almost 10yrs old and still has OS support from Apple That’s not too bad imo.
Chromebooks are the really fucking villain. 3-4 yrs and it’s off to the landfill. What the fuck?
Perhaps because their expensive computers are nowhere near as widespread as Windows ones.
What are you talking about? Apple devices maintain their resale value for years.
Apple locks old devices out of updates, although it takes about 10 years to do so. And after that, you can still do a workaround. Only problems is going to be when the last intel mac isn’t going to be supported anymore, then the old devices will definitely be locked out.
Apple locks old devices out of updates
Dropping support for older platforms happens for a number of reasons, including hardware-level security problems and lack of interest for ongoing maintenance. Linux distributions even drop support for older hardware. Even the Linux kernel itself has dropped support. A decision to not keep supporting a piece of hardware is not the same as preventing updates.
The thing to focus on isn’t that Apple halts maintaining its own OSes on older hardware. Rather, we should press hardware makers and regulators on the boot loader locks and other obstacles that prevent end users from installing alternate OSes, especially once hardware makers end OS support for hardware. E.g., older iPads that can’t run modern iPadOS but could easily run a lightweight Linux distribution. This applies to more than just Apple, like some Android devices. “Internet of Things” devices are similarly affected – Belkin halted support for a generation of Wemo smart plugs when a vulnerability came out – they told consumers to buy new Wemos and provided no alternate path for the older, still functional plugs.
Reject Windows, emabrace Linux and FOSS Software
This isn’t a problem if you’re still using Windows 7! ;-)
So 2025 will finally be the year of the Linux desktop?
just use linux instead.
why are people allergic to
windowslinux?I get the joke, but lots of people, me included, start to understand why people pay so much for a Mac. It’s not the hardware, it’s not having to deal with Windows.
As an IT person, Macs shouldn’t exist.
They aren’t computers, they are fashion accessories that just happen to compute.
No offence but you’re a bad it person if you really think like that.
I love to suggest Apple products to my relatives, because they’re too dumb and I don’t have to give technical support, lol.
And what type of person are you who judges by their spending habits? For all you know I could be a 5 gallon lifetime blood donor that volunteers to feed the homeless. But since I don’t like your chosen consumer identity product, I’m a bad person.
Get every manner of fucked.
I don’t want to argue with you, because your thoughts are right and you raise valid good points when interacting on social media.
But just to add something, I didn’t say he’s a bad person, I have no clue about that, I did say he’s a bad IT person. In other words, not qualifies for the role, if I can have an opinion on that.
Supporting such a fucked up company makes you a bad person, so 🤷🏻♀️
I support the right tool for the right task, I’m not a company cultist, I’m sure Apple is as fucked up as Microsoft, I believe you. But I don’t care.
Not a joke. Linux is genuinely better in most cases, barring some niche, very specific stuff.
I have 20 years of experience in Linux. I’m not the average “I’m using Arch btw” Linux user. I managed several services at work with Linux and have a homelab at home.
If I wasn’t a PC gamer, Windows was gone from my house. That’s how I prefer Linux.
Having said that, your statement is objectively wrong.
my lived experience for the last half decade is… wrong?
i managed servers for a few decades too if thats what matters, and its different from desktop.
You’re changing the environment to favour your fight. I agree with you, 90% of the times in servers space, Linux works better.
not really.
im saying desktop linux is just as good nowadays since the beggining
I wish.
Gaming is the primary driver behind my PC choices by a humongous margin. I’m not really concerned about imvasive anti-cheat software, I don’t want to tinker with settings, I want to turn on my computer and play video games. That means I use Windows.
As someone who just installed Linux Mint as a test and uses their machine mostly for gaming:
Linux is perfectly fine for that, too. I had one minor issue that was fixed by plugging a cord into a different plug on my machine and have otherwise had 0 issues getting things to run on the Linux partition of my system.
I actually have seen mostly better performance in the realm of about 10fps better per game than the Win 10 install on the same hardware
Spent less time tinkering with the settings (done via GUI that makes more sense than windoes’ 15 different settings menus) than I never have in any version of Windows, synched my firefox over, boom.
Not gonna say Linux is perfect for everything but it does seem a lot of people think it’s harder/worse than it is by a mile
That doesn’t compute here. Like I have literally 0 problems with Windows. That’s certainly not been my experience with Linux. Oh bought a new drawing tablet, nah that won’t work. Oh need to update for firmware on a device, yeah better have windows. Oh you bought a recent printer, better not use Linux.
It will be like that as long as people are so used to bad products. Linux will have similar but better support if it has more users. It already improved a lot. This myth of printers/tablets not working got quite old now
I’m seriously thinking of trying Linux when Windows 11 is forced. My computer has the specs to run it, but I’m just tired of Windows and Microsoft.
Unless you run some really niche software or are a heavy gamer, you’ll likely have no problems and enjoy it. Most software that you need for daily use has a FOSS equivalent that’s equal or better. Usually those are also available straight from the package manager (if not there, then most likely Flatpak).
Just stick with a well supported distro like Fedora, Ubuntu, Debian, or PopOS, and it’ll be super easy.
I’m actually looking forward to the perfectly good Linux boxes that are bound to be popping up at yard sales or on ebay once that happens.
a heavy gamer
Why I am still hesitant to make the leap. Not just do I mostly use my PC for gaming but I have a tendency to jump into a new game for like 3 weeks and then off to the next like the horrid ADHD having fuck that I am. I don’t want to possibly have to work to make a game work each and every time. I know its gotten a lot better about that but still. Convivence has me trapped yo.
I was in the same boat. But Valve seriously made it easy to install and play games on Steam. If you have a spare drive, give it a shot.
Things I had to do were to turn on proton in the steam settings and installing vulkan drivers for my AMD card.
I honestly might with my next build this summer.
In a desktop (which is what you want for gaming anyways) why not? Easy enough to slot in a new drive and dual boot from there, no need to muck about with partitions like with a single-drive laptop.
If it doesn’t work out, oh well, go back to Windows. But maybe Linux is finally there, and you’ll find you don’t need to go back
