Yeah but deciding not to vote for Biden just feels like a good trendy way to express my sympathies with Palestineans… /s
I hope this gets posted in all the leftist boards. People need to understand Biden is a continuation of the United States’ wishy-washy policies on Palestinians whereas Trump is pedal to the floor full acceleration towards genocide. Biden has shown he can at least be pressured into taking minor steps in the right direction. Being able to claim moral purity at the expense of a genocided Palestine will ring pretty hollow.
Looking forward to what the Republicans cosplaying as leftists use instead of “genocide Joe” now that Donald is calling for a final solution.
It will most likely continue to get used completely unironically along with cheering on the bombs.
Pick one:
-
Geriatric Joe, the president too senile to make up his mind on which side to support.
-
Gray-area Joe, the weak president that refuses to take a stance on foreign affairs.
-
Bystander Biden, the president that did nothing to end the Israel-Palestine war.
And so forth. They’ll always find some other stupid thing to blame him for.
I kinda like Bystander Biden tbh
It’s an election year, they’re just trying to get their favorite orange fash in office. Horseshoe theory is a bitch.
-
Its not republicans, its russian shills/bots… ok wait… yeah, guess ur right.
And for the life of me, his correct name that ive been pushing since 2019, is Status Quo Joe. It was an insult then, cant believe its a vague defense now.
Fark Brandon
Plus the fact that Biden is definitively anti Ukrainian genocide, and Trump would not only pull US support of Ukraine, he would actively try to discourage NATO
I mean if we start talking about all the horrible things that will happen under a Trump presidency, we’ll never stop.
Until the men with guns put black bags over our heads and shove us into vans in the middle of the night.
The “ppl” pushing the narrative ur complaining about arent on Ukraines side, nor or they on the side of NATO. Theyre busy convincing everyone they can that literally all western news is propaganda and the only true news will come from state sources in russia, china, etc.
The goal when engaging that side should, for the sane, anyway, always be not to convert the person ur speaking to, bc even if they arent bots/shills, their bad faith arguments turn aggressive incredibly quickly. Instead, the goal should be to demonstrate to the onlookers the absurdness of the tankie’s position, and who it benefits/who is responsible for fabricating the position in the first place.
Theyre busy convincing everyone they can that literally all western news is propaganda and the only true news will come from state sources in russia, china, etc.
you made this up
I mean, Biden absolutely is wishy washy.
But he also reversed Trump’s policy of saying West Bank settlement is legal, and sanctioned violent Israeli settlers.
Obviously Gaza’s really bad, but what’s happened and happening in the West Bank is also arguably ethnic cleansing. Chasing Palestinians off their land. Trump’s a fan.
United States’ wishy-washy policies on Palestinians
Wishy-washy policies is my favorite way to say “apartheid ethnostate”
I have a strict “no genocide” policy. Candidates that promote, endorse, allow, or sit idly by and let others do genocide are gonna be a no go from me.
It’s not going to change unless we make demands.
Removed by mod
Numbnutz, clown, shill. Very convincing rhetoric. If the 100,000 in Michigan who voted uncommitted had heard these eloquent shibboleths, surely they would have changed their minds.
Do what you want in the primaries. That is the time for it (although not voting doesn’t do anything still). We are obviously talking about the general.
How about you make demands all the time instead of only when it’s politically convenient for people who don’t give a shit?
Because that’s exactly how you will get steamrolled. You’re lucky there’s people like us looking out for people like you.
It’s The White Man’s Burden.
I have a strict “no genocide” policy.
That’s not one of the options though. You get to pick which genocide. You either get restrained genocide, or full genocide with a side of dismantling American democracy.
Tell your kids how you rationalized voting for genocide.
Happily, and I’ll teach them how to do the same, when necessary. Unlike your parents apparently.
Sometimes there’s no good choice, only bad and worse. That’s how life works and I’m sad your parents never prepared you for that.
You mean critical thinking?
As soon as it’s assured Trump loses, and the subsequent cou de tat is quelled, you can all camp the White House front lawn and shake the fences, throw red paint, call old Biden an accessory to murder. Fill your boots.But not before.
Balancing on the tightrope with hell yawning below, is hardly the time to consider changing your shoelaces.
PS it’s French, so not very intuitive in its spelling:
Coup d’état
Right you are
So just keep quiet for the next 6 months as Gaza starves?
Letting the most immoral thing happen as you sit on your hands isn’t a moral victory on your part. It’s a moral failing. If you had the chance to save ten people but one of them had to die, and you choose to let all of them die, you didn’t do something moral.
You can pretend to yourself that your making a stand that matters, but any rational person see that you are choosing to let more harm be done because you can’t stand to do something a little dirty but better. It’s weak, not moral. We sometimes have to do the thing we wish we didn’t in order to get the best outcome possible.
You don’t clean your toilet because you enjoy it. You clean it because it needs to be done, and sometimes getting a little dirty is better than letting things get worse.
If I have kids, I genuinely hope they ask me that. I hope they get angry at me, because the concept of a tacit genocide supporter being the lesser evil is unthinkable. I want them to live in a world where there aren’t moral conundrums like that, and the closest they come to them is in gritty video games and academic hypotheticals.
I’m willing to support the lesser evil and have blood on my hands so they can live in a better world and condemn me for it. I will be thrilled if that comes to pass.
I expect to have Jill Stein and cornel west on my ballot.
Neither of which are options.
if they are in the ballot, they are options
That’s not how it works. Either Biden or Trump will win. Anything else, you might as well not vote.
Stein thinks the US forced Russia into invading Ukraine and doesn’t support US aid or involvement for Ukrainians. Hardly unexpected, since she’s dined with Russian oligarchs at anniversary dinners for RT.
As far as I’m concerned, she’s Genocide Jill. I don’t recall her criticizing RT when someone on there suggested drowning Ukrainian children.
What are West’s positions on Ukraine?
>Stein thinks the US forced Russia into invading Ukraine
she never said that. she has said it was an illegal invasion, though.
>What are West’s positions on Ukraine
i’ve heard him say similar things to jill, but also that the shooting needs to stop.
>she’s dined with Russian oligarchs at anniversary dinners for RT.
this contains both misinformation and innuendo. she went to one dinner, and she paid her own way. RT was one of the few outlets that would give her air time during her 2012 presidential bid, which is more of a commentary on the corporate media and political parties than on anything she’s ever done.
Jill Stein, yes, Cornell West? I wouldn’t bet on it. He’s 2 for 50 so far… I guess if you live in Alaska or Oregon, you’re in luck.
He’s going to wish he stayed the Green candidate.
Either way, they’ll pull a tiny segment of the vote and won’t win a single state, just like always.
jill says they’re on track to hit 5% this november. that’s something worth voting for.
Hey, there’s a first time for anything…
2020:
Libertarian - 1.18%
Green - 0.26% (Howie Hawkins)2016:
Libertarian - 3.28%
Green - 1.07% (Jill Stein)2012:
Libertarian - 0.99%
Green - 0.36% (Jill Stein)2008:
Ralph Nader - 0.56%
Libertarian - 0.40%
Constitution - 0.15%
Green - 0.12% (Cynthia McKinney)2004:
Ralph Nader - 0.38%
Libertarian - 0.32%
Constitution - 0.12%
Green - 0.10% (David Cobb)2000:
Green - 2.74% (Ralph Nader)
Reform - 0.43% (Pat Buchanen)
Libertarian - 0.36%
Constitution - 0.09%
Natural Law - 0.08%In order to hit 5%, she would have to do twice as well as Nader did in 2000.
That is never going to happen.
If its a primary then fuck Biden, but if it’s the General Election then the blue name on the ballot is who gets the check.
I am convinced a good chunk of the “genocide Joe” crew are agents provocateurs.
You’re may be right. I assume most of them are ‘useful idiots’.
They realised western media were often biased, so they switched to ‘critical’ media, spent more and more time in internet bubbles, and ended up uncritically parroting Russian, Chinese or Iranian propaganda instead.
Same thing happened after 9/11 and Iraq. A lot of people were angry about how biased CNN was, so they switched to channels like Russia Today because it was critical of the US and did genuinely have a lot of good journalism. Of course, that doesn’t mean Russia Today isn’t propaganda. A lot of these people are forever lost, I don’t think you can deprogram them.
Also if people use a lot of slogans like “cultural marxism”, “Fuck Brandon” or “genocide Joe”, without being able to articulate a nuanced position, it’s likely they’ve succumb to newspeak. Newspeak uses an impoverished and simplified vocabulary, to prevent people from critical thinking.
It must feel amazing to be held hostage by a ineffective political party that knows that if you don’t vote for them then the alternative will be much worse.
The salient point is that Trump is endorsing a pogrom.
Your takeaway from a story about a former President of the United States of America endorsing ethnic cleansing, is that a backhanded shot should be taken at the other party?
Why do Republicans always get the good propagandists?
They don’t have to deal with nuance. Just tell them who to hate and maybe give them a talking point they’ll swallow whole.
They’re willing to outsource it to countries with more expertise.
It feels like shit but whatever plan you have isn’t gonna change it
Holding us hostage by… progressive voters choosing not to show up in the primaries.
Admittedly, bitching online is much easier and doesn’t involve leaving the house but still…
FYI, voting doesn’t require leaving the house either. Register to vote by mail!
Depends on your state. In the states where it matters the most, voting is the hardest.
It feels like shit honestly. Maybe if more liberals/progressives voted…
Must be amazing to think that there’s a giant majority of Socialists in America and the only thing holding them back is the DNC.
Bernie.
“Bernie…Sanders”
Bernie himself expressed disappointment that he was unable to get the turnout he wanted, especially among young people. His campaign had a flawed goal to only target 40% of the vote, and his argument for victory was that he would turn out so many young people and disaffected nonvoters.
That didn’t happen in the primary, and there wasn’t a significant difference between open and closed primaries to suggest closed primaries were the culprit. Ironically when total voter count decreased, in caucuses, it was Bernie who was favored.
If you want to blame someone for his loss, blame the fact that youth turnout wasn’t 100% for a trustworthy candidate who was promising free college, student loans forgiveness, legal weed, and free universal healthcare. I was 24 that year, so I’m not criticizing “the youth” in general, but my age cohort of tail end millennials.
So, what exactly do I call a young person who heard a politician speaking to their issues, and at that a politician who consistently showed courage and was genuine, and sat out?
Sanders was exactly what’s described. Someone to vote for. I understand cynicism, but if you actually want to see people who tackle issues you care about, you have to take the first step of voting for them. It isn’t going to happen otherwise.
How else do you expect to stop being disillusioned by politicians unless you give someone the chance? It is absolutely correct to call them apathetic, and they shot themselves in the foot. We don’t have the luxury of running five different Bernie Sanders types before they finally get off their ass.
It’s harsh, but it seems like harsh is what they need to actually affect change. Roe being overturned generated much larger electoral consequences than candidates who would’ve kept Roe.
You’re proving my point here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_of_the_2020_Democratic_Party_presidential_primaries
Bernie had four years to organize, and got 10 million fewer votes than Biden.
Am I?
It is amazing that some people think that Biden can snap his fingers and Israel jumps to attention. Israel is a country that attacked the USS Liberty! Biden didn’t start the conflict. People on both sides have died. You can’t stop trains, super tankers of countries on a dime. It would be nice, however if folks would actually try to understand what is being done and why. Hint: you won’t find in in the MSM or from Putin’s trolls. Then again, mindless online bitching is so much easier.
Yeah, you can’t just call up Israel, threaten US aid, and tell them to end hostilities: that only worked when Reagan and did it! And when HW Bush did it! /s
I dont understand this idea that the US has no leverage when we are sending Israel billions of dollars. Without US resupply, several crucial Israeli military systems would be forced to shut down.
So, we’ve already given them all the means and any call for action is “shutting down crucial military systems” aka leaving them vulnerable in a hostile region?
“If you dont stop the genocide then we will stop arming your soldiers” sounds reasonable to me.
If Israel is left vulnerable in a hostile region, it will be because of their own actions.
You do know… not all Israelis are military.
And not all Gazans are Hamas, but the death toll is over 30k and people are starting to starve to death.
So you don’t care about signing death warrants you just want to be upset about things in the middle east?
Well uh when you have the US Navy under your command, and already in the area dealing with Houthis, you know, by shooting down their missiles and bombing them and such, you actually /can/ stop trains and tankers.
You could airlift aid! You could, hilariously, stop ships heading to Israel with a Naval Blockade!
Obviously that last one isnt going to happen, but theres a whole lot more than basically nothing that you could do.
For starters: Cut off a bunch of joint projects between US and Israeli firms, stop sending them large amounts of money for other things, stop fucking shit canning every attempt by the UN to sanction Israel, or maybe even use these aforementioned things as threats and leverage to force a fucking ceasefire.
And now because this is the internet: Am I saying that Trump is somehow not bad, not far, far, far fucking worse by pointing out the rest?
Nooooo!
No, fucking obviously Trump would be a thousand times worse!
But pretending that there’s nothing Biden could do is a joke.
He doesn’t because he is a long time Zionist, and the American public, and particularly political and media figures, have been bathed in Zionist propaganda for so long that it takes an overt genocide for us to figure out that maybe Israel actually isn’t a perfect unconditional ally.
Amazing? I just feel helpless.
Biden: We’ve been reluctantly supporting a very close ally, but it’s gone too far, and now we’re publicly condemning while admittedly still funding them. It’s a complicated situation, and I’m a cautious centrist.
Trump: Why are there still buildings standing in Gaza? That won’t happen on my watch. May as well wipe out the West Bank while we’re at it.
For the life of me, I can’t tell the difference. I have no idea who to vote for to help the Palestinians.
There is no one to vote for to help the Palestinians.
The only hope for Gaza is for Biden to change course and use his significant leverage to convince Bibi to end the blockade.
If the status quo of famine is allowed to continue, there will be no Gazans left to bomb when Trump is sworn in on Jan 2025.
30,000 people are dead. Daily death tolls have fallen by 20% per month since the beginning of the war.
How are you getting to 2,300,000 within ten months?
Can you show your work?
People in northern Gaza have described in detail about their decline.
In the first month or two, they ate the remaining food and slaughtered the animals. Then they ate animal feed for months. When that was gone, they ate bird seed. Now with nothing left, they eat grass.
When it’s only grass, people start to die. Children and elderly first. And that is the stage of famine we are at now.
People can survive a long time on very low food. But they can’t survive forever.
So all 2.3 million people in Gaza ignored the first evacuation orders and warnings and instead of going South, they all went to north Gaza where they proceeded to eat all the food and are now starving to death, and despite only 30,000 deaths in four months, you believe that this month there will be 230,000, and that figure will continue for the next ten months in a row? I don’t know sort of seems like you’re exaggerating Israel’s actions to portray Jews as evil.
If the total death toll doesn’t increase by eightfold in the next month will that be sufficient evidence that claims of ethnic cleansing and weaponized starvation are highly exaggerated?
Ohhh the daily DEATH AND TERROR AND MADNESS HAS DROPPED BY 20%!!
CANCEL EVERYTHING LOL!
So 80 people die instead of 100… That totally means there is no genocide rofl
The only hope for Gaza is for Biden to change course and use his significant leverage to convince Bibi to end the blockade.
Meanwhile, let’s just wait for the Pope to shit in the woods.
Edit: In other words, five months and almost 31,000 Palestinian deaths later, he’s still just wagging his finger and sending even more arms to Israel.
Biden is literally changing course right now.
Nah the Pope is going after the real threat. Trans youth. I wish that I was kidding…
Over the past few months, Francis had to cancel a few activities and one international trip due to his fragile health, which has recently raised worries over his capacity to continue to lead the Catholic Church.
Maybe he’s having cognitive issues, too, which might explain (but not excuse) his erratic behavior.
When your highly nuanced and extremely educated political stance is obliterated by an extremely obvious fact that you forgot to consider because you got lost in the sauce of [current hot conversation topic] for [I’m a Leftist!™] identifying individuals.
I mean I was personally waiting for Trump to say the obvious and finish the punchline for the last couple weeks honestly.
I mean, thats good, but unfortunately a huge (over-representative?) amount of online leftist discourse is so subsumed by extremely emotionally driven short sighted glomming onto bullying a particular person that they often say things that are basically obviously ludicrous if you either take a few deep breathes and think about what you’re saying, or if you’re not really involved in the often extremely petty nature of discourse around/perpetuated by many popular online leftists.
But hey, Not All Leftists, I guess?
Its frankly deeply embarrassing to accurately describe myself as a leftist and then have less politically engaged people often think I’m like one of these over the top internet personalities, and also infuriating when I describe myself as a leftist to other leftists online, who then usually woke scold and purity shame me for having non ludicrous positions.
Hell I’m still banned from like half the hexbear and lemmy.ml communities for pointing out that maybe Taiwan has expressed a desire for governmental sovereignty, you know kind of like Ukraine, even though its obviously not a perfect society, it doesnt deserve to be invaded or subverted by a neighboring state?
Nah. Verbotten opinions.
I think the latest hexbear community to ban me did so because I posted a response to an ‘enigmatic, therefore funny and awesome’ meme on weibo.
The meme, a kind of wojack meme, boils down to ‘Dengist reforms allowed western influence into China, which has resulted in nowadays Chinese incels pretend to be black men online to pick up chicks because many Chinese basically racistly view black men as all having giant cocks.’
But you can’t even hint that parts of Chinese society might be gasp racist, or even have segments that view women as only interested in big dicked men because this breaks the brains of many online Western leftists that Chinese society is not actually perfect.
Its even more baffling to me that many online Leftists barely ever mention, or tie themselves up in absurd logical/rhetorical pretzels about how just in general many East Asian societies and ethnicities have large chunks that are extremely racist towards other East Asian and other ethnicities, basically because a good number of East Asian societies are nominally communist or socialist, so that must mean they’ve solved racism.
I think all of what you said there can be summed up with.
Comrade, leftists sure can be infuriating to deal with and talk to, huh?
Pretty sure the most vocal ones arent the most productive ones, and as with most ideologies aren’t really representative of the majority. But still can be a headache for everyone involved.
I got banned for pointing out obvious right wing propaganda from a known right wing shill and was told it “emotionally confirmed” how they felt about Biden, so it didn’t matter if it wasn’t entirely factual.
I mean how do you fight back against that?People are such emotional little idiots about the things they feel. It’s nicer to feel right than be it, because reality is very very often very disappointing. But compromise makes you feel wronger.
We are in very emotional times for sure.It’s more comfortable intellectually to think that if everyone was just in favor of X, all the world’s problems would disappear. It’s like an ignorance is bliss effect.
Blahaj is the craziest to me. There’s a huge hexbear influence there. It’s like, yo, if you physically tried to go to Russia you would probably be beaten and murdered just for existing.
Hexbear is Pro Russia, and pro Trans rights, what’s so hard to understand?/s
Is that what Biden has said or is that what you want him to say?
Nope that’s what he has said and has been saying. Are you trolling or just ignorant?
What about his actions? How many bombs used in this genocide were sent by the US?
We live in a democracy. Maybe you’re thinking of the Arab states surrounding Israel, where one guy decides everything?
We don’t send bombs to Israel because they need them to kill Hamas. Israel makes all the weapons they need to do that without America. It is a nuclear power. America sends weapons to Israel because of the threat of Iran. And it’s not going to stop doing that because of a local land dispute. Our alliance with Israel is about avoiding a war with Iran, which would result in tens of millions of deaths.
10,000,000 > 30,000. Simple as that.
Gross lol.
This is what I’ve been pointing out all along… Say what you want about Biden funding Israel, Trump is actively worse.
And no, Jill Stein or Cornell West are not viable alternatives.
Just voted for Gabriel Cornejo in my state’s primary. Looked him up, liked his policies, voted for him instead of Vermin Supreme, because no way am I voting for Biden in the primary. It’s purely symbolic, let’s be real, but I did ultimately vote for someone with leftist platform.
It’s not purely symbolic. The bigger candidates often start to address policy positions represented by smaller candidates who get enough votes in the primaries as a way to sway those voters in the general election.
Absolutely! If we can show that there are votes to be taken up by repositioning policies just a little or adding some, then it absolutely in a working 2 party system moves the closest party to adopt those in order to get the votes. And then it’s up to consistent pressure to make sure they are worked on while in office, pest they lose trust and that voter base forever.
It’s a shame, I’m pretty sure the US is not in a working or stable 2 party system.
Yeah, it’s not a total solution, but it’s better than letting the Dems pander to the centrists.
Yeah but the centrists are easy fodder while the right wing has been shifting more to the right after losing support over the years and seeing the fringe party voters as votes they could pick up.
The centrists don’t have a party as easy to back and thus Democrats are picking them up by moving even more center.Unless they think they need the progressive votes, which they don’t at the moment, they won’t care as much for trying to pick up left fringe voters. The middle is just bigger tastier looking prey.
Yeah, that was my point. The primaries are a chance to vote progressive to send the dominant candidate a message.
Right. I’m disagreeing that it will have much of an effect though. Centrists are adrift that would normally vote “fiscally conservative but socially liberal” and lean more Republican because of the bad taste Trump left in their mouth but I think Democrats assume that is an easy voter based to capture by just not doing anything overly crazy and acting fiscally conservative and centrist in their ideology.
So Democrats might pick up some minor left leaning points to make sure they get enough of the left leaning populace but unless a 3rd party candidate gets an incredible primary, in the current state, I don’t expect them to adjust policy much at all. Centrist just likely seems the safer bet to them which is dangerous if they lose them but they are against Trump and MAGA so it’s somewhat a safe gamble.
In better times primarying works but here, and right now, I don’t think the Democrats give a flying fuck.
This right here. There’s no actual threat of weakening Biden by voting against him in the primary, because there’s no real candidate running against him. Voting uncommitted or for a write in the primary is a great way to leverage your voting power without empowering trump.
Yeah, in the primary all options are valid to vote for, even if it’s just symbolic. That still shows where people stand. However, in the general you pick who you need to pick in order to get the best outcome. You don’t get to vote for symbolism then, at least if you’re a rational person and not just doing something out of an emotional attempt to feel better than other people. It sucks, but that’s how the system functions for now at least. Acting morally superior doesn’t do anything except allow the morally corrupt to get their way.
Gabriel Cornejo Identified the leading problem in the country and hired the smartest person in the world to fix it.
And no, Jill Stein or Cornell West are not viable alternatives.
My vote will only ever go to Vermin Supreme.
But what about naz-yay? (Yeay? Yeah?)
The irony of literally anyone (eligible) not voting for Biden specifically because of his handling of the Gaza situation, and thereby doing their part to help Donald “Gotta Finish the Problem” Trump win, makes my bones hurt. I hate this timeline and I don’t want to live on this planet anymore.
Trump also repeatedly claimed that if he were president, there would be no war between Israel and Gaza. “It would have never happened if I was president,” he said of Hamas’ Oct. 7 attack against Israel, in which more than 1,100 Israeli and foreign nationals were killed. “They wouldn’t have done it to me, I guarantee you that. They did this because they have no respect for Biden and frankly they got soft,” he added.
uh huh
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel_in_2017 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel_in_2018
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_airborne_arson_attacks
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel_in_2019 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel_in_2020
They would never have done it if he was president. They only attacked because of biden.
Color me surprised that the facist sympathizes with other fascists committing a genocide.
It was because Biden and the Democrats were against it. Trump literally looks at when the Dems are doing and says they are the exact opposite of it.
Same happened with the US border. The Reps kept demanding money for border security for months, including Trump. In the end, Biden agreed they could have it. The moment the Dems were ok with this, Trump demanded that the Reps be against it, and the Reps voted against the money. It didn’t happen in the end.
You’re wrong about the border. One of his main shticks is immigrates invading the country over the southern border. If they passed the border bill, and Biden shut down the border, he loses a huge talking point with his base and a huge fear of theirs that he can prey on.
He didn’t block it because Democrats were for it, he blocked it because he doesn’t actually care about protecting his base from any invasion, he cares only about himself.
You’ll see that he’ll keep talking about the border.
He didn’t block it because Democrats were for it, he blocked it because he doesn’t actually care about protecting his base from any invasion, he cares only about himself.
That’s a lot of words to say that trump tanked the border deal because the Democrats were ok with it.
No, it’s saying he tanked it because he wants to border to be open because he believe it helps him win.
Hell, the Democrats aren’t even “for it” it was just compromise…or really I think it was a political move to take that away from trump and get what they think is important (support for Ukraine).
Again, just watch, he’ll hammer on the border over and over again during the general election. At that point will you admit I’m right?
At that point will you admit I’m right?
Nix this part and you’re good, chief.
I tend to respond to obnoxiousness in kind. It’s certainly a weakness of mine.
I do the same, but I have been trying to build the habit of not doing it.
So, you’re saying that Trump and Republicans haven’t been demanding money for the border for months, and that when the Democrats finally agreed to the funding, the Republicans didn’t suddenly vote against it?
No, I’m not saying that. Feel free to read my clarification again.
(Edit) Sorry thought this was in the same chain. No, I’m not saying that. I’m saying he wants the border open because he thinks it helps him win. he isn’t vocally against border security now, he’ll continue to hammer away at it because its red meat for his base. He’s against it getting closed because then he can’t hammer away at it.
I wasn’t saying he was against border security either though. I’m saying he was suddenly against funding anything to do with it the moment the Dems were acceptable to funding it (doesn’t matter the reason for it).
He could have crowed on that the security happened because of Reps and his lobbying, but instead went against funding it the moment Dems said yes to it.
Except he’s going to continue to harp on border security. He isn’t taking the position because he just does the opposite of the Dems, he blocked it because it takes away a talking point. Now he can and will continue to talk about it. He didn’t even change his position.
lmao the Dems have never NOT supported the genocide. Republicans just supported it more because Jesus and war. And racism.
https://english.ahram.org.eg/News/518937.aspx
He literally asked for a ceasefire yesterday, it’s why Trump is against it now.
Shipping weapons used in genocide is supporting genocide and you know it.
EDIT: I can’t read apparently.
I agree, I said never not supported, which I realize is a bit confusing. Maybe the not should be all caps
Whoops. I misread that. My bad.
I’ve asked it before, but I wonder how Hitler would react to Israel. Probably be beaming with pride, like a master does when their apprentice surpasses them. I imagine when Netanyahu finally shuffles his way off this mortal coil, and his soul goes wherever Hitler’s is, Adolf will probably shake his hand.
Unless I’m getting wooshed on sarcasm… you realize Israel is full of the descendants of the Jewish people Hitler displaced, right?
In the magical world of Lemmy, it’s perfectly ok to compare Israel to Nazis. This place is like a bad trip sometimes.
But sure, yeah… go ahead and just not vote. Letting Trump in will be so much better for the Palestinians.
A week ago, the difference between the two would have been that Trump would enable Israel in every way, while Biden would enable Israel in every way, but staffers would leak stories about how much Biden didn’t like Netanyahu from time to time. Now, Biden has started sending aid to Gaza while Harris is calling for a ceasefire, and this is entirely because 100K voters in Michigan voted uncommitted. When done properly, threatening to withhold your vote can be an effective way to make your voice heard.
I think you make a great point, but I would add a caveat. There IS a difference between Biden and trump. One will listen to protesters, and the other won’t. You can pressure Biden and he will change his position because he seems to care what voters think, and Trump doesn’t.
Yeah, I agree with that. And, to be clear, I think there have always been tons of differences between Biden and Trump on almost every issue besides Israel/Gaza. I was just saying that, on this single issue, the difference between Biden and Trump would have been mostly rhetoric, not policy, up until the Michigan primary voters convinced Biden to change. I definitely didn’t mean to imply they were generally the same.
Now, Biden has started sending aid to Gaza
But he hasn’t stopped sending weapons to Israel
Yeah, I’m not saying there’s been enough change, just that there has been some change, and it was brought on by people threatening to withhold their vote.
it was brought on by people threatening to withhold their vote.
Its definitely been a wake-up call to the party. Watching Biden shed 20% of Democratic voter turnout in a fucking primary is something. Obama and Clinton never had these kinds of problems in '12 and '96. And guys that did - Carter getting burned by Ted Kennedy in '80 and Bush to Buchanan in '92 - should have been a warning to the party as a whole.
Yeah, I’ll be honest, I’m very worried about this election. I’m still unhappy with Biden’s approach to Israel, but at least now they can credibly argue that voting for him would be harm reduction for Palestinians. Maybe that will be enough to drive turnout.
at least now they can credibly argue that voting for him would be harm reduction
Right until the polls close in November, at which point its back to business as usual.
Well…yeah, probably.
this is entirely because 100K voters in Michigan voted uncommitted
Objection. Assumes facts not in evidence.
To be clear, I have no problem with people in Michigan voting uncommitted, I just don’t think you can draw that line.
Biden’s entire approach to Isreal changed almost on a dime after that primary. He started aid drops to Gaza, Kamala Harris suddenly started using the word, “ceasefire,” he brought Netanyahu’s chief opponent to discuss the humanitarian crisis in Gaza…Biden obviously didn’t come out and say, “I’m changing my approach to Isreal because I’m afraid of losing Michigan,” but it’s pretty clear why this shift is occurring.
It’s certainly possible. My opinion has long been that politicians are not really all that responsive to public opinion.
When your representatives are Republicans, that’s pretty much true. My blue representatives actually seem to care and I have first-hand experience with this.
I’m afraid that there was a near instantaneous shift in his rhetoric after Michigan.
The ‘uncommitted’ voters will think that they changed Biden’s mind, but most likely he was going to start sending aiding to Gaza anyway. He doesn’t like Netanyahu and probably genuinely does want peace.
At the same time the ‘uncommitted’ stunt has turned voters against Biden. Remember the average voter is functioning at grade 8 or grade 6 level. Educated voters will see this as the political maneuvers that it is, the average ‘grade 6’ mental age voter will think ‘Biden sucks’, and not vote.
Letting Trump in
Winner-take-all electoral college means you never really had a voice in the matter.
You should have moved to a Blue State before 2020, so your physical presence could be used to tip how many electoral votes that state produced, if you really cared about stopping Trump in 2024. That’s the only consequential method of putting a (very tiny) finger on the scale of a Presidential contest.
Wouldn’t it make more sense to move to a swing state and try to tip it blue?
Edit: tip it blue
From a population perspective, it wouldn’t matter. Your best bet would be to find a bright blue state that is on the cusp of getting a new house seat. That would boost up the EC total for the state and guarantee consistent adds to Team Blue. Moving to a purple state and hoping you are THE swing voter mostly just means you make the state more valuable to invest in by the various campaigns. You’re still going to be functionally feeding Red Team during red election waves (which blue needs votes the most) when your view is most likely to be in the minority.
Still uncommitted?
Given that Trump is running in the Republican primary, I’m unsure how this would effect anyone voting uncommitted in a Democratic primary?
Well, you’re implying that you might vote for someone other than Biden in the general, and the impact of that is that Trump will become president and the impact of that is Israel will have a free pass from US leadership to completely annihilate Gaza and kill with impunity. So, in terms of actually achieving the goal of stopping the killing of Palestinians, voting uncommitted is not going to work. Additionally, by promoting voting uncommitted and making it a purity test, some people will be influenced by that and ACTUALLY not vote for Biden and this will be the same thing as voting for Trump in that the result of Trump winning will be the same.
This would be a much more productive conversation if you didn’t just invent things I didn’t say to argue with. I’ve implied no such thing.
I am explicitly using the Democratic primary as a method to express my displeasure with Biden, which you may recognize as the sole reason primaries exist. I’m increasingly confused by how many people seem to not understand that.
Will voting uncommitted or for the crazy crystal healing lady lead to the Democrats having a component and popular general election candidate come November? No, sadly, but that’s a criticism of the state of our decayed democracy not giving voters meaningful avenues to enact change in society, not a criticism of the electoral strategies that have to exist within said decayed democracy.
Will voting uncommitted or for the crazy crystal healing lady lead to Biden making meaningful changes in his stances regarding Palestine? Given his change in messaging from the guy that bypassed Congress to sell Israel munitions two months ago to someone that now doing the bare minimum of at least air dropping (nowhere near sufficient) food supplies to Gaza, the answer to that is seemingly a slight yes. Which has the benefit of aligning the presumptive Democratic Presidential nominee with the majority of voters, making him a stronger general candidate.
You know. The whole point of a primary. So, you’re welcome?
I’m increasingly confused by how many people seem to not understand that.
Me too, and I’m Canadian and don’t know much about US politics. Are there sources out there (e.g., US news, social media campaigns, messaging from actual Democrats) spreading the idea that an uncommitted vote in the primary means voting for trump in the election?
Gotta lie keep the support for israel high.
Remember Trump isn’t on the democratic ballot. You can’t vote against him until November. Your only choice in the primaries is to vote for Biden or vote that you are here for the other progressive and democratic choices down ballot but Biden has to earn that commitment by doing something against his own personal desire to be a Zionist and instead help starving children get food.
Uncommitted doesn’t mean I’m never going to vote for Biden. It just means he has to earn it through action.
Sure, but how many people are casting uncommitted or seeing how unpopular Biden is and are going to stay home in November because of it? My guess is not zero.
I get the protest and the timing, but it’s unclear if it’s really inoffensive in the general.
You don’t get the protest then!
If Biden fears this uncommitted vote movement then he will have to do something to stop it in its tracks.
Using his power to stop the weapons and money transfers to Israel and using the words Ceasefire Now would be a start. If he starts doing concrete actions to stop ten year old children wasting away and dying of starvation then the uncommitted vote movement would be over.
Then it sounds like Biden needs to take a firm anti-genocide stance to get those voters to actually vote, no? Do you think the number of Biden voters would decrease if Biden stopped the genocide?
I think the number of voters in general will decrease if Trump wins, considering he wants to get rid of elections entirely.
Do you disagree with the statement that Biden taking an anti-genocide stance, rather than his current pro-genocide with wrist slaps stance, would increase voter turnout?
An honest answer: It would likely increase the progressive voter turnout, but I am unsure about the net effect. I would certainly hope it increases total overall turnout, but unfortunately a large chunk of the voting populace–including a lot of reliable Democrat voters–are still very much pro-Israel.
That said, I would also like to confirm: Assume for the moment that Biden and Trump wins the nomination, and there is no change in the status quo between now and November (this is unlikely, given Biden’s recent shifts in policy signaling a possible change in trend, but I want to check against the worst case scenario). Would you still vote for Biden, or would you stay home? Would you staying home potentially affect the outcome (I.e. are you in a solid red/blue state like Alabama or California, or are you in a swing state like Michigan or Georgia)? What would need to change for you to vote for Biden in November?
I don’t know what you intended to post, but my phone wants to open it in WhatsApp
Then your phone is configured to open webp links as WhatsApp links, which is not the correct extension association.
It’s an animated image.
Oh I don’t doubt that the “uncommited” oppose Trump, too. The problem is the Genocide Joe rhetoric and other similar bullshit. You push that narrative and it may very well have lingering effects in Trump’s favor during the general election. Maybe in other elections it didnt matter quite as much, but this is Trump were talking about. Why do you and others like you not get that? Hello, knock, knock. Trump is fully embracing the Hitler playbook and aiming to be president of the Most Powerful Nation on Earth. And you want to bitch about Biden? At this moment…? SMH, it is your sort of fractious indiscipline and short-sightedness that allows fascism to gain power, laughing all the way at your stupidity and inability to mount a coherent defence of democracy. You think you have nothing to lose, but you do. Things can get much, much worse.
Exactly, some people will take this uncommitted thing all the way to the general election. Biden only won by a few hundred thousand votes in swing states. If you weaken enthusiasm in folks to come out for him, all it takes is a few hundred thousand to stay home and Trump will win. Not voting for Biden will elect Trump. You will be helping Trump. You will be electing Trump. And encouraging others to do the same just for fun in the primary is a dangerous game of chicken. You don’t play with loaded guns. Don’t play with the last election the United States may ever have.
Well, you’re implying that you might vote for someone other than Biden in the general, and the impact of that is that Trump will become president and the impact of that is Israel will have a free pass from US leadership to completely annihilate Gaza and kill with impunity. So, in terms of actually achieving the goal of stopping the killing of Palestinians, voting uncommitted is not going to work.
Additionally, and I think this is IMPORTANT, by promoting voting uncommitted and making it a purity test, some people will be influenced by that and ACTUALLY not vote for Biden and this will be the same thing as voting for Trump in that the result of Trump winning will be the same.
A lot of uncommitted voters are going to vote for Biden out of harm reduction. They might vote against AIPAC-endorsed candidates if they only have Democrats in their ballots. I know I would, but if there is a Republican, I’d have to vote for an AIPAC-endorsed democrat.
In the primary? Absolutely. It’s the only way I can demand more from Biden as a representative. These are voters who went out of their way to get up and vote for the democratic primary, just not for Biden. This is a huge way to put pressure on Biden and the DNC. These are committed voters protesting within the democratic party. This is the only way democratic voters can put pressure on Biden to change course.
The National is very different, we don’t have a choice but to vote for Biden or domestic fascism. I will of course vote for Biden and urge others to as well during the National election. Not a third party or Trump in the National, Biden is the only real option.
This is the reality of our shitty FPTP democracy.
Yep. Voted no preference today and the most progressive candidates down ballot. My conscience is clear.
You’re like those dudes who post anonymously things like “I’m totally 100% straight but occasionally I like sucking a dick”
That didn’t factor into my vote because I’m not homophobic.
Perhaps it’s because you’re too dumb to understand the concept of an analogy.
That analogy makes no logical sense, and I’d like to see you try to explain it without looking dumb yourself. Put up or shut up smart guy.
You delude yourself.
Explanation of analogy?
Yes lol. If you can’t run a candidate that isn’t whole heartedly in on genocide, then you shouldn’t expect votes from people who don’t like said genocide. The dems clearly don’t actually give a fuck about democracy, why not actually throw that antipopulism behind a candidate who actually appeals to people. “Still uncommited” haha GTFO. Yell at the people actually choosing the candidate, not the people who don’t want to vote for the meat puppet. I mean…Jesus fucking Christ.
Your purity test here makes you equivalent to a Trump supporter in that your actions of not supporting Biden will result in Trump winning the election.
As is clear from this article, Trump will “finish the job” in Gaza. You think it’s bad now? Wait until Israel is encouraged to completely seize Gaza and kill with even more impunity by Trump. So, your purity test for Biden will actually result in a worse outcome than you’re trying to achieve. You’re actually going to be causing a worse situation to unfold — one that is the opposite of what you want. You may say it’s justified because you needed to stand by your morals, but I don’t think that will matter to the Palestinians dying because you chose not to support Biden and by doing so, elected Trump.
I beg you to reconsider your position. Biden won by only a few hundred thousand votes in swing states. Your not supporting Biden and encouraging others not to as well could depress turn out and result in a very unfortunate situation. This may be the last election we ever have in America.
Purity test😂
You’d be better off yelling at the people who are pushing the worst possible candidate against Trump. Let’s pretend you convince me to vote, congrats you’ve convinced 1 person in the interwebs. Write to your reps…ramp up the pressure and forget about me. Biden’s losing with or without my vote, it’s a good bet. When that happens you can blame people that didn’t want to vote , or you can blame the party that’s shooting itself in the dick…over…and over again. I know who will get blamed, and I don’t give a fuck.
In all honesty I think if Trump was president right now, not only would I have been shot about 2 years ago (lots of Trump assholes around me and I was pretty vocal on the town page when I was on FB back in 2020), we absolutely would have boots on the ground in Gaza.
“Captain! Captain they’re shooting at us!”
Yeah, plenty of likely Brownshirts around me, and they may get the drop, but I’m not harmless.
Thankfully we’ve had four more years to get more people armed. A lot of us are no longer unable to defend ourselves and our communities.
But also guns bad
leftistsliberals
I think you mean liberals
Fair, I’ll edit
If trump was president right now, democrats would be at least more harshly condemning his actions in Gaza because it wouldn’t be politically expedient for them to downplay their complicity in genocide to maintain their current level of comfort and power. Gotta keep that machine running no matter what, I guess.
Ummm. They would be dead. They constructed gallows outside the capital on Jan 6th to hang Mike Pence. What makes you think any democrats would have survived to even see the Gaza war?
Oh man and Trump is only more pissed now since feeling like he didn’t get to be the biggest man, and get his easy win election.
If that wasn’t true before it definitely feels that way now.
I was thinking more so if Trump won the election rather than succeeded the insurrection, but I’ll give you that. Fascists are gonna fascist. I just don’t see any way to stop creeping fascism so long as people are downplaying atrocities for the sake of damage reduction. We’re going to end up with fascism regardless since we’re doing nothing to prevent it.
I’m not a Democrat, but I would be at war. If having a right to vote is the hill I die on so be it.
Oh, good.
So the only reason to not vote for Biden is also a reason to not vote for trump. At least Biden seems to be at least signaling for cease fires.
It’s not much, but at least Biden is malleable on this. He can be persuaded to make the attempt to try to slow the Israelis down, maybe even stop arms shipments to Israel altogether (or at least add conditions). If Trump comes in, he’d probably go in the complete opposite direction out of spite for liberals and would try to help the Israeli genocide even harder. It’s not a great choice, but the choice of least harm in this case is still Biden.
Israel is not the only problem in that area, mind you. Just wanting them to stop what they’re currently doing fixes nothing in the large picture.
Hamas deciding to surrender and Palestine somehow waking up seems like the best option, but I don’t see how that could happen. And Israel’s actions are not helping that of course.
A 9mm hole in Trump’s forehead would also solve, at the very least, one problem.
And people think Democrats will
vote onsupport Trump because Biden won’t denounce Israel…It’s at least in part Russian propaganda. They don’t want people to vote for Trump, they do want democratic voters to not vote at all, which will help Trump get elected.
Look at the people pushing the ‘genocide Joe’ thing. Invariably they’re anti-NATO and make excuses for Iran, Syria and Russia. Not that they’re doing it deliberately, but plenty seem to have bought the propaganda and are acting like useful idiots by spreading it.
Anytime someone goes to name calling I assume they are a bad actor. We can have a serious discussion on the matter without devolving into name calling so I just assume they are trying to sew discord more than anything else.
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It’s at least in part Russian propaganda.
But you’ll use that as the excuse every time someone says they won’t be voting for Biden right?
The problem you run into with this excuse is regardless of where the ideas are coming from or who is amplifying them you and many others are clearly concerned about the upcoming election. Biden won the 2020 general election so that means you’re worried there are people who voted for Biden in the 2020 general election and won’t vote for him in 2024. If they’re leftists or progressives that means staying home, voting 3rd party or writing in.
So here’s a crazy idea: find a compromise. Leftists and progressives have raised multiple reasons they are frustrated or even angry at Biden. Why not yield to some of those objections? Frankly, the fact that discussions about giving progressive and leftist voters what they want in order to gain votes get so heavily down voted feels like the real PsyOP. Especially when the people downvoting simultaneously talk about the wonders of democracy and compromise. Here’s just a few ideas Biden could do today:
- Biden has been providing Israel weapons without congressional approval. That means he could stop. Today. Do that.
- Biden blocked the rail strike by forcing a contract unions had voted against down their throat. That contract expires at the end of this year meaning they could strike again in 2025. Biden could promise to veto any attempts to block a rail strike in his next term.
- Biden forced federal workers back to the office. He could reverse that.
- Biden could publicly shame Powell and Yellen for attacking American worker wages.
It’s hard to take people seriously when they talk about how important democracy is but sneer at the very idea of sacrificing any policy positions in order to court voters sitting to the left of Biden.
Without taking a position on what you’re saying, do you think it’s at all possible that making those choices could lose more voters than they’d gain? I honestly don’t know, but changing a position on any issue runs the risk of losing votes as well.
do you think it’s at all possible that making those choices could lose more voters than they’d gain?
Yes. You take a risk either way.
thank you
What do you know about politics dude because it seems like nothing.
Do you want to mock my understanding of politics or do you want my vote? You can’t have both.
Its at least in part Russian propaganda. They don’t want people to vote for Trump, they do want democratic voters to not vote at all
you’re making this up
none of your links support a claim that russia is using the conflict in israel to favor one candidate or another.
Imagine thinking Russia has undue influence on the US but that the US doesn’t do this to every country in the world, including Russia. Remind me how Yeltzin got elected?
What many of us imagine is that it’s bad when either nation does this.
Yes, it is hypocritical for most US politicians to criticize Russia’s interference in US elections, but it’s not incorrect.
It certainly isn’t wrongthink for those of us who have little influence on what alphabet agencies do to complain about it happening just because it’s happening elsewhere, too.
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That’s a non sequitur at best.
Imagine banning people from your stonercringe community because they said you shouldn’t drive high
Imagine being upset about it enough to follow me around? Cringe dude
Imagine being you and taking memes seriously? Cringe dude
no one is threatening to vote for Trump because of biden’s genocidal proclivities. since nobody’s doing that, none of them can be Russian agents. you made this up.
Since reading is hard:
It’s at least in part Russian propaganda. They don’t want people to vote for Trump, they do want democratic voters to not vote at all, which will help Trump get elected.
Way to ignore the entire point of the person you responded to.
Way to ignore the entire point of the person you responded to.
i’m not ignoring it. i’m challenging it.
Sorry, I wasn’t aware that you were “challenging it” by ignoring the actual point and making up something else to respond to. My mistake, I’ll have to learn alternative definitions for words.
Genocide Joe needs to be held accountable for sending weapons to a country engaged in genocide. That’s not propaganda, that’s international law.
And just for the sake of science: do you have an opinion on NATO?
It’s fine I guess, I’m not a Russian or Chinese shill lmao. I guess I was technically a social democrat, then I thought humanity would be okay in small tribal communes, but now I think humanity should go extinct in order to save the remaining animals we haven’t already driven to extinction. For sciences sake.
So you do realize that’s worse than Hitler right? Your “noble cause” requires humanity to be exterminated, Hitler just wanted a “perfect race” of humans. Even if it’s not by your hand or directed by you, you want the elimination of the entire human species.
There are some days where I’m in that camp too lol
Yeah I don’t think it should be an extermination, I know there are others like me called the voluntary extinction movement or something. I think intelligent people can see the writing on the wall that we’ve passed an important climate tipping point in 2023, I’m lucky I didn’t already have kids, but I’m getting a vasectomy.
Humanity has driven 70% of all species to extinction in the 250,000 years we’ve been around. 150 species a day. How many megafauna did we permanently erase before we even developed the written word? I think if we burn ourselves out before we spread to other planets or solar systems, said places are lucky.
That’s the easy way out. Please stick around and help the rest of us try to steer humanity in the right direction. Help the moral arc of the universe bend a little faster. It’s hard work, and most of us won’t see much of a return. But long-term, let’s hope that humanity can.
To clarify: I’m a biologist. The perspective you’ve taken is basically “Noble Savage” but for animals. Animals are pushed to extinction all the time. Yes, we’re incredibly good at it, and we’re good at coming up with highfalutin reasons for killing things, but look at chimps, ants, dolphins…nature is brutal. It sucks to be most animals. Say a habitat changes, and a species “needs” to move into an adjacent similar habitat that’s already occupied by one or more species exploiting those resources? Extinction of something is pretty likely. That’s all very much an oversimplification, of course, but this is a lemmy comment.
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0111310 https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/when-it-comes-waging-war-ants-humans-have-lot-common-180972169/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gombe_Chimpanzee_War
The hope I have is our intelligence. The fact that you recognize this existential threat is more than a badger is capable of.
Do you have an opinion on anything I said or just insinuations about my agenda?
They will. By not voting for either.
I don’t believe that is something that anyone has ever said
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Man, I was worried for a second he would take the opposite stance.
I’m really torn on this one. On the one hand, Republicans ALWAYS take the exact opposite stance of Democrats so they can set up the argument as “Democrats bad” but on the other hand Trump is such a massive pile of shit that he would totally be for “bombing dark skinned people” just because.
Man who some have called a fascist, backs a genocide.
