Teachers describe a deterioration in behaviour and attitudes that has proved to be fertile terrain for misogynistic influencers
“As soon as I mention feminism, you can feel the shift in the room; they’re shuffling in their seats.” Mike Nicholson holds workshops with teenage boys about the challenges of impending manhood. Standing up for the sisterhood, it seems, is the last thing on their minds.
When Nicholson says he is a feminist himself, “I can see them look at me, like, ‘I used to like you.’”
Once Nicholson, whose programme is called Progressive Masculinity, unpacks the fact that feminism means equal rights and opportunities for women, many of the boys with whom he works are won over.
“A lot of it is bred from misunderstanding and how the word is smeared,” he says.
But he is battling against what he calls a “dominance-based model” of masculinity. “These old-fashioned, regressive ideas are having a renaissance, through your masculinity influencers – your grifters, like Andrew Tate.”
That’s not what they said. You didn’t just simplify it by changing the words, you changed the words.
I’m a feminist. And a single father to a future man. Poster is right. I put energy into teaching my son how to elevate women. I also teach him self worth, healthy masculinity, and loving himself.
You just hate women. There’s no other reason to put energy into posts like this. If it’s because you’re sad and lonely and feel left behind, I’m sorry. I’d be happy to talk to you about it.
I don’t hate women, but I dislike feminists. And I get really angry when feminists try to claim a monopoly on morality. I guess you could say it triggers me. Feminists don’t care about men’s issues. At best they only give lip service.
There’s this popular sense of “if you care about making society better, you’re a feminist”. But feminism is solely concerned with making women’s position better. Which, due to how discriminated against women have been, comes out to much the same thing most of the time. But not ALL of the time, and when there’s a gap between “what’s good for women” and “what’s good for society”, there’s nothing filling that gap. No group to turn to. Any time anyone tries they get co-opted or shut down by feminists, or they tap into right-wing misogyny to completely defy feminism.
Yeah, that angers me. Men trying to better themselves are stuck between a rock and a hard place.
So you think the feminist you replied to doesn’t care about men’s issues?
I don’t presume to speak for any one individual.
You made a sweeping statement about what you think all (or effectively all) feminists believe. Why is asking about what you think a recent, specific person believes, somehow over the line?
Because it’s easy to know what a movement believes in general, but it’s almost impossible to know what a person believes unless you know them very well personally?
Why is it that every time I come on lemmy I end up explaining something so simple it should be self explanatory?
Because you’re wrong a lot, and Dunning-Kruger effect…?
Only to serve their own purposes. An ends to a means. Feminism is not about men.
?
The people you’re referring to aren’t feminists. Someone earlier in the thread mentioned that no one who’s never encountered a piece of feminist theory isn’t one. I mean, how could they be?
It’s like calling yourself a Christian without reading the Bible, or a star wars fan who’s only ever seen start Trek, or whatever.
I understand how you can associate the kind of shrieking misandry you often come across as feminism, since the kindd of people (usually women) who are all about this are very angry and very vocal.
Actual feminists - the ones seeking to gain a more cogent understanding of the dynamics of gender and out of that create a more suitable world, don’t sound like they. That wave crashed and broke on the shore. Sure there are people who call themselves feminists who want nothing more than to replace patriarchy with matriarchy but they’re rarely the ones doing any actual work towards creating better gender relations.
I’ll give you a tipe that will help you spot the difference pretty quickly: do they ever mention men, at all, in a way that isn’t dismissive or angry?
If they don’t, then chances are they’ve never read anything about feminism that they didn’t see online. I think most of the ones that have read a book before would agree with you that it’s important that men have a voice, and many of them are sounding the same alarms you’re sounding.
When feminism talks about patriarchy they’re not talking about emasculating men - just that it’s high time tried looking at alternatives to power structures that only benefit a very small percentage of people at the expense of everyone else.
Patriarchy is men fighting tooth and nail when we don’t have to. It’s being told by society to shut up and get on with it. That your humanity makes you weak.
I’m sure if you could approach the theory with an open mind you’d be shocked at how much of it you agree with. Fucked if I know how you would make it past the refuse pile of shrieking blue haired misandrists though.
There are hundreds of millions of Christians who have never read the Bible.
You can’t pretend that the vast majority of adherents to an ideology are not true adherents to that ideology. If you want to get semantic, reframe everything I’ve said to say “people who call themselves feminists but have never studied feminist theory” rather than “feminists”.
Now do you agree with me?
This seems a little disingenuous considering that the vast majority of Christians at least have memorized some scripture, so they know all the greatest hits. OP’s point is if someone can’t tell you a wit about feminist ideological literature, or name any hidtorically noteworthy figures of the movement then they’re probably not feminists
I don’t think most people could name important figures, but I think most everyone could relate a list of things women used to not be able to do that now they can do. But regardless, the analogy is breaking down a bit. There are still plenty of Christians who know nothing about the Bible or the history of the religion (most people who do learn about it tend to lose their faith lol).
As a man, any ideology which stands against toxic masculinity or putting men in cognitive boxes helps men. Tearing down traditional gender roles absolutely fits that description imo.
I have never felt stuck between a rock and a hard place. In fact, the ethics of the question could not be more obvious to me. Feminism calls on me(n) to be authentic and to deny precisely the kind of existential bad faith which puts men into boxes. If you want to be in a box, that’s on you. If you want to project that onto others, that’s toxic.
Sure, I agree, mostly. But men need more than what feminism offers, and not all that feminism offers is good, for men or for equality.
Where do you find positive male role models?
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