I apologise if this is the wrong community to post this in, I wasn’t sure which one was ideal.
I’m suffering a difficult decision of choosing between a Framework laptop or a Macbook Air (M1, 2020). I really like the ethical principles of Framework, i.e. you actually own it and can repair it any time, leading to an increased longevity. At the same time, I have heard people claim Macbook is superior in almost all aspects (especially battery life).
I know both Apple and Microsoft are greedy CorpGiants, but seeing as I have an iPhone, I figure it would be easier using a Mac? But then again, the prices really are not worth it, especially considering it costs a lot to repair them. I have 0 experience with Linux, and this computer will be used at school, so I suppose it stands between macOS and Windows.
I guess I just want some advice? Or some guidance and comparisons. Is 8GB enough for a Framework laptop? The 16GB version costs nearly as much as the Mac I’m looking at, hence my hesitance. If anybody has some experience using Framework and / or Macbook, I would love to hear about it. What are some pros and cons? Which people are better off with FW and Mac respectively?
Thank you!
*Edit, forgot to mention: I need a Swedish keyboard on the computer, and Framework apparently only offers English. This is the largest obstacle preventing me from leaning towards FW.
8GB is not enough memory these days. But you can always add memory later.
Not for the MacBook, it’s soldered in. So he will have to upgrade the whole thing. The M1 is one of the best laptops I’ve used (for work), but you have to choose the right specs at the beginning, otherwise you will be in a pickle.
It’s more than soldered in—it’s in the actual processor. It’s why you can’t desolder the RAM and replace it, even if you were that talented. It’s the downside to SOC. I hope that the new RAM technology called CAMM works out and becomes popular enough to fix the SOC trend.
You are correct, I was thinking of the framework, but I didn’t mention that in my comment.
True on Framework (add more later), not on MacBook Air. But even though my main machine now has 64GB, I found my first-gen MacBook Air (2020) was great with 16GB. However, depends what you need to throw at it.
You can always upgrade the memory, and storage of the framework laptop, so you can start with the 8GB and then pick up more pretty cheap later.
One of the best things about the framework is that you don’t have to pay for a package upgrade of parts if all you need is just one thing to upgrade.
Also, when you do need to update something, you can just get a new motherboard and memory, and not have to buy a whole new laptop.
Honestly, just get the framework, unless there’s a real reason you need a Mac.
You can also update the processor when they release new parts.
And you don’t have to run Windows, put a nice flavour of Linux on it for that fast feeling. Or rip everything out of Windows with something like the AME wizard.
Thanks for this comment! Everybody on Reddit says to get Macbook instead of Framework, so it’s nice to have some differing opinions.
If you want to be the “cool guy” then macbook is your choice, it will cost more and repair is risky to be done by anyone except apple himself.
If you want to have a laptop, that is easy to repair,upgrade and is cheap but powerfull then Framework laptop.
On macbook you are locked into apple, you cant upgrade, you can only get support by apple and most of the time third party stuff doesnt work right on macbook. On Framework laptop you are more open to do anything, like upgrading, switching OS if windows isnt right for you. Framework is a lot more open and listens to the community.
I wouldn’t call the Framework “cheap”. Its price is higher than other similarly-specced laptops. But in the long term you can save money by not having to buy a whole new laptop when it breaks or becomes obsolete. You can even take your old mainboard out and repurpose it as something else.
The MacBook is expensive to buy and has no upgrade path. macOS is sleek and well-designed and the M1/2/3 is a very capable CPU but saving money is not a thing you can expect to do here.
Both are reasonable choices depending on what your use case is.
Its relative to a macbook cheap, of course it does not have best speccs-price ratio.
I have the m1 macbook air, and its wonderfully performant and long battery life for how I use it… mostly just word-processing and web-browsing.
But the repair concerns are legit, when I decided to get the macbook, I decided I was going to play apples game and opted to get their service plan. I’ve had apple care+ on a tablet before and their service is great when you don’t have to pay their ridiculous repair fees. So at a rate of $100 per year, I’m essentially leasing my laptop after I bought it. I have it automatically backed up to my home server, in the event that one of their stupid engineering designs destroys my data (See Louis Rossmann videos).
Idk if I’d ever really recommend anyone get a macbook if they don’t need to, personally, the battery life and standby time are just killer features for me. I have ADHD, and frequently forget to charge my laptop… if I’m not on my meds and I pick up my laptop to do something and its dead… I’m not going to do that thing. With the macbook, I make next to no conscious effort to keep it charged. If it’s under ~20% and I happen to be near a charger, I’ll charge it. And thats the extent of me managing the battery.
My wife on the other hand, her windows machine (and most seem to have this problem as I understand) is always dead. She’s resorted to putting it into full hybernation mode (significantly slower to wake up) and even then, it somehow seems to still lose quite a bit of battery in between uses.
Aside from that, its light, small, its sturdy. I use windows for work and for gaming on my desktop, so I’ve got not strong aversion to it, its pretty much just the battery life and standby thats the killer feature for me. So… yeah, thats my take. If the battery situation isn’t a big deal for you, go for the framework. They seem like a solid company, making solid laptops, that are easily and affordably repairable and upgradable.
But the repair concerns are legit
Speaking as someone who has disassembled multiple Macbook Airs from multiple generations: Fuck working on Macbook Airs, and Macs in general.
I personally will never buy an Apple product at any price for any purpose, for a multitude of reasons. My preferences aside, if you ever want to work on your own machine Apple is objectively the wrong answer. OP is really looking at two machines that are on complete opposite ends of the spectrum, here.
Do people really do home repair or upgraded on laptops in 2024 though? Desktops sure, but I haven’t found laptops to be particularly amenable to home upgrade since the early 2000s.
Never mind upgrading, if you need to repair your Macbook – replace a busted screen, swap out one of their famously shitty keyboards or trackpads, etc. – you’re in for a rough time.
Frameworks yes, but that’s pretty much the only ones you can nowadays. I do little things like replace the screen or barrel jacks on my family’s laptops, but that’s about all you can do.
8GB of RAM wasn’t enough for me to use in either person or professional contexts in 2006. My work laptop has 16GB and I’m constantly running low on RAM when I’m working with spreadsheets and relatively simple Photoshop projects. I’m not talking about games or compiling code either.
I would not be looking at systems with fewer than 16GB of RAM for any user for any reason in 2024. And for myself I would not be buying any systems with fewer than 32GB of RAM.
(My personal desktop has 64GB and so far that’s been sufficient but I have nearly capped it out when running substance painter, blender, unity, etc.)
So it really all comes down to the software you use. But my advice is to consider 16GB the absolute minimum.
Apple claims their OS needs less RAM (I have no clue) but for OP running Windows 8GB is no where near enough.
They can claim that all they want to, but once you actually start running stuff on the computer that’s BS. Accessing the same website in the same browser on different platforms will use the same amount of RAM. Opening the same files on different platforms will use the same amount of RAM.
RAM is where things are put for active use, and it turns out that all files are the size of their content regardless of platform and thus take up the same amount of space in use.
While the base OS of one vendor might have a smaller foot print than the other, that doesn’t matter once you actually start using the damn thing. If you spec your machine on the misguided marketing that “you need less RAM” your gonna have slower load times and longer waits when switching between apps as the OS needs to access the storage.
My work laptop is a MBpro with 32gb of RAM. It is very easy to max out it’s RAM and with an unbounded swap system very easy to max out my disk space too. When that happens it’s a bad crash and lost work.
My personal computer is a custom built desktop running Windows and Linux with 64gb of RAM. It is harder to max out it’s RAM though I have done so and it frequently uses more than 32gb of RAM.
OP didn’t sound like they’re the sort of person who needs to run those kinds of applications. They definitely didn’t state requirements like that, and if they did then they probably wouldn’t be asking how much RAM they need, they’d already know.
Brother what do you do that you nee sso much RAM
All sorts of things. I’m a programmer by trade and run several docker containers concurrently for a couple of different products I work on. It’s not uncommon that I have to troubleshoot opening a file that is several gigabytes in size.
By hobby, I make video games and some of my assets are pre-rendered simulations that get saved. I, admittedly, like pushing my machine as far as I can on resolution so some of those simulations absolutely take a toll. I also just like fucking around in Blender, minor video editing, don’t close out my browser tabs, and have been known to run multiple video games simultaneously (like playing a survival game with a friend and leaving it running when he’s gotta go. Then I just start up some other game in the meantime).
All told, not everything I do is necessarily orthodox, but it works well for me and I take full advantage of all my hardware.
Using docker as an example of using more ram doesn’t really make sense as the use for docker is containerisation for optimising system resources.
You do need to allocate memory to it though, and that subtracts from the pool of system RAM available for other purposes.
Well except in Linux’s case when you use zram anyway. It compresses a pool of RAM. I usually compress almost all of my RAM and generally hover around and 2:1 ratio with lz4.
Windows 10+ also compresses a pool of RAM but it is a terrible ratio and seems to hover around 1:1.1. Nothing to write home about.
Apple has low memory behaviour way better optimized than Windows, so running at 8GB will not be as painful as it is with windows - but in the background the OS will constantly shuffle stuff around to avoid running out of memory, which costs performance.
16GB is the bare minimum for computer nowadays - and that applies to macs as well. I’m currently using a 16GB air m1 for some things, and I also regularly run into performance issues due to memory limits without doing heavy stuff.
Just to note for anyone reading this later on. Being low on ram doesn’t mean you need more ram, Modern operating systems, especially Windows and MacOS prefer to utilise all available ram, it’s hard to guage how much you need because of this. To be safe if you’re buying a Laptop or Desktop for professional use in 2024 16gb is the minimum and 32gb is recommended.
My place of work uses macs at work, I like them though I’m fairly platform agnostic. I have windows PCs for home theater use, and Linux laptops for personal use. I like macbooks but loath the complete lack of upgradability. We have so many old macs that just get scrapped. PCs are no different, but this is my workplace. If you have to buy a laptop, buy a used one and wipe it or buy a framework. Framework laptops should be upgradable for close to a decade by their vision. That’s without third party support. Support a vision for a consumer rights future or buy used IMO.
I think the framework one is better because you can get a cheaper version now and upgrade it in time. I don’t know the specific specs of both laptops, but Apple products are usually overpriced, so look at all specs, the same price might not be the same specs, e.g. CPU might be weaker or no dedicated GPU.
That being said I understand where the love for Apple comes from, their products are very slick and because they control both hardware and software they can get some heavy optimisations.
Finally if you care about privacy enough to question getting a Mac, you should give Linux a try, it’s not hard, most people suffer for trying to do things the windows way, but you would already have suffered that if you went with a Mac.
Funny, I was just watching something about framework! It’s got some discussion of various framework reviews and the pros and cons of the machine.
https://www.youtube.com/live/KDIXNRgnDWQ/?t=21m49s
With framework being a new company, looks like they’re working out some bugs, but they’re doing it quickly and transparently. The laptop costs more per performance than other options, but since you can upgrade it down the line, you can save money in the long run.
Compared to a MacBook, it really depends on the applications you use. Video editing is likely going to be better on mac, but good luck trying to game on it. Mac has better battery life, but you’ll pay an arm and a leg to repair anything, sometimes being cheaper to buy a whole new machine than pay their exorbitant prices.
So it all depends on the use case, but I’d go with framework. I care that the company isn’t adversarial, and it would work for what I use a laptop for.
If you’re considering a framework laptop I can’t imagine you’d want to be stuck on Apple software/silicon.
Look at an older year of framework too
Are you only considering the hardware/price, or also the software side?
Which OS’es do you have experience with, and/or preference for?
The previous Mac I used was the first one they made with a colour screen (yes, I’m that old). Then last year I got a Mac laptop and I wanted to love it … but man, that OS is getting in my way something fierce! To such an extent, in fact, that I switched over to my own (arguably inferior) Thinkpad that’s been running Linux since forever.
I think you want the MacBook. I like the ethical principles behind Framework too, but they come with a learning curve. You might only save money if you fix it yourself, are you willing to learn to do that? It will have to run Windows, do you know whether it will run Windows 11, will you have you install and configure it yourself, if so do you know how to do that?
Meanwhile, if you buy a MacBook it will last a good seven or eight years before you need to replace it, at least if you get the 16 GB of RAM (but maybe 8 is enough, 8 has been the standard for like a decade already, maybe software developers finally reached the point where their objective is to do more with less). Sure sometimes Apple comes up with bad hardware like the butterfly-switch keyboard but if you’re getting hardware that’s basically the same as last year check out the news and reviews, anything that bad and people will be talking about it. Also if you buy a MacBook, Apple tries its best that everything just works. The easiest learning curve there is. You may pay a premium in price up front but over seven or eight years you might end up spending less.
For the first year of ownership, if it ever has a problem (that wasn’t clearly caused by you dropping it) you can make an appointment to drop it off at an Apple Store and just pick it up when they fix it. You can buy AppleCare to extend that year into three years. If you’re a resident college student your school’s computer support center might be an authorized repair center and fix it. With a MacBook you are unlikely to incur any repair costs ever so long as you don’t drop the damn thing.
So you have to decide what sort of person you are. I’ve been building and taking apart computers for years, I’ve been a Linux user since 1999, and sometimes I want a project like a Framework to tinker with, but sometimes (especially when I went to college) I want something dependable that just works without having to fuss with it, and that’s Apple. That’s what you’re ultimately choosing, and whether that’s worth the (up-front, at least) price premium.
You nailed it here. It’s all about the willingness of the user to maintain it.
The integration part from OP: I don’t understand why anybody wants to be locked into a single ecosystem. If the company pivots/does something weird, you have a LOT of history you have to untangle. Google for instance.
But in spite of that, Macs just work without fuss. And I say this as a mac hater for years, and now forced to use one for work.
Framework hasn’t been around that long, and is more likely to go out of business than Google or Apple. Even if the design of its parts is open-source (I’m not sure whether they are), you’d have to find someplace to make the parts for you. Also how many businesses have started with open-source stuff then taken over by people who in order to make them profitable make them go proprietary?
On the integration bit, I love that I can copy a URL on my phone and paste it into my browser on my Mac. I love that I can copy a meme on my Mac and paste it into a messaging app on my phone.
Yeah, I got a Windows laptop and couldn’t do that as easily anymore and like, it really bothered me that this service that I’d only been using for a few years that everyone else gets along without was suddenly unavailable. It’s like parking at a parking meter and needing quarters now.
btw you can get apple care indefinitely if you pay annually. I’ve decided throught his mechanism I’ll essentially lease my macbook. Paying $100/year for the peace of mind that they’ll fix anything thats wrong with the laptop until I decide to ditch it. Its probably worth keeping an eye on the used market to decide when its economically optimal to just drop the applecare and just replace the laptop in the event of it needing to be repaired.
Worth noting, you may have to be a stern self-advocate to get certain things fixed because they will sometimes pull some bullshit excuse that its not covered under applecare/warranty because of xyz, and xyz isn’t even true (see Louis Rossmann / CBC News videos)
So you pay extra for your laptop, then pay for another third of a laptop or so, before you have to fight with somebody on the phone to get what you paid for? That’s certainly a plan.
See my other comment for more context, I’m not saying it’s a good thing, or advocating for people to do it, but it is what I do… for reasons.
Fair enough. Have a good day Internet Friend
No YOU’RE an internet friend!
Framework
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I will be studying cyber security and network infrastructure with some limited script programming. I understand it is far easier to use Windows if you study in engineering.
I am interested in Linux, but seeing as Microsoft is very closed-off (cannot use installed versions of Microsoft365), I am a bit unsure if I want to fully commit to it. I am absolutely willing to try running it and getting a feel of it, though.
What does the process look like when you install Windows on your own? Is it difficult / costly?
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I am aware of that, I was just saying.
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You basically have a usb-stick with the windows installer… stick it it… boot from it (usually F12 or F8 at start brings up the menu)… and follow the steps on the screen… and thats it.
But if you are unsure you can also pay like 20 or 30$ for some shop to do it for you.
Are they comparable in price? What is it that you actually do with your computer?
I will be studying cyber security where we will do some script programming (but no heavy programming at all), otherwise I use it to stream movies online and watch Youtube. That’s pretty much what I do with my current school-prescribed computer.
I’ve worked on dev tooling in a fairly large company. Especially for cyber security, do not get a Mac. A lot of the tools are just different enough on a Mac that they will make your life much harder.
Oh, you want to study cybersecurity? Yeah forget what I said before, get a Framework, and if you don’t put Linux on it at least put WSL on it. Learn all you can.
cybersecurity really poibts to framework + linux
Just a note that virtualization is not available on Apple silicon (M1+) yet, so if you plan on running VMs like Kali, it won’t be possible.
Sure it will, just get Kali for ARM. https://www.kali.org/docs/arm/
What do you mean? Both ARM hypervisor and x86 virtualisation using UTM work great.
Get a refurb thinkpad(x1 carbon gen7 ish maybe) and run Linux if your in to cybersecurity.
You’re at a time with high risk of laptop tragedies so repairability is an important factor. Framework will be cheaper/easier to repair yourself. However, if you have no interest in DIYing and instead have money to burn to pay for fixes (or a service plan), the mac would be a better option due to the Apple Stores everywhere. A typical repair place won’t have familiarity with framework (not that it’s particularly exotic) and can be a lot more hit or miss than Apple.
Also make sure you consider a few years down the line when it comes to batteries.
