The United Nations’ top court opens hearings Thursday into South Africa’s allegation that Israel’s war with Hamas amounts to genocide against Palestinians, a claim that Israel strongly denies.

  • VikingHippie@lemmy.wtf
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    10 months ago

    I’d say “about time”, but no matter how compelling the evidence, any resolution will be vetoed by the US as usual 🤬

    • bustrpoindextr@lemmy.world
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      10 months ago

      Imma go ahead and put this edit at the top.

      Edit: the following legal explanation does not absolve Israel from other war crimes they have definitely committed such as collective punishment. It’s just explaining why “genocide” is not an appropriate claim.

      Edit over, original post follows.

      The problem with the genocide claim is actually laid out by a lawyer in the article. I’m sure this comment will get removed because every time I try to explain this someone reports me.

      Genocide is the intentional murdering of a race or ethnic group. Hamas is not an ethnic group, that’s the intended target as long as Israel warns or attempts to move civilian populations away from bombing targets it’s going to be really hard to prove they are intentionally killing those civilians. Israel has done those measures the entire conflict.

      The civilian casualty number could be much higher and not matter to the definition of genocide. Because genocide requires intent, regardless of the number.

      For a modern day example of genocide look at Sudan, where people are going door to door shooting members of an ethnic group. That’s genocide. The intentional killing of an ethnic group.

      • BrikoX@lemmy.zip
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        10 months ago

        Your analysis is flawed.

        Full genocide definition: https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml

        It needs 2 elements. Mental and physical.

        Israel destroyed all but 5 hospitals in the whole region that housed 2.3 million people;
        They are performing a total blockade that cuts off water, food, electricity, gas (also known as siege);
        1.9 million people are displaced from their home;
        They are intentionally bombing refugee camps they themselves declared “safe zones”;

        There is plenty of evidence, half of which is provided by Israel or IDF themselves, to prove the mental intent of genocide. They just feel untouchable with blind US support and their universal defense of Holocaust, which they use as both sword and shield.

        Out of 5 physical acts that qualify as genocide, Israel checks 4 of them.

        1. Killing members of the group; ✔
        2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;✔
        3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;✔
        4. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;✔
        5. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.❌
      • NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social
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        10 months ago

        as long as Israel warns or attempts to move civilian populations away from bombing targets it’s going to be really hard to prove they are intentionally killing those civilians. Israel has done those measures the entire conflict.

        Nope. We’ve had tons of cases of them moving people to “safe areas” and then bombing them.

        • bustrpoindextr@lemmy.world
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          10 months ago

          That doesn’t matter in a legal sense.

          Okay my dudes. Look. Israel thinks UN court is a kangaroo court, but they’re sending a crack team of lawyers. Why? PR. Because they know they’ll win and then they can say “we defended our actions in court and won”

          Sure, take them to court, but take them to court for things they’d actually lose.

          • treefrog@lemm.ee
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            10 months ago

            How is telling civilians ‘go here for safety’ and then dropping bombs on that location not intent?

            Or are you saying it’s an intentional war crime just not genocide in particular?

            • bustrpoindextr@lemmy.world
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              10 months ago

              Prove it was intentional and not a misfire, a problem with civilians accessing up to date information etc etc. Gaza is very small and very densely populated. You have to prove without a shadow of a doubt intent here. It ain’t gonna happen.

              Again, you’d be better off taking Israel to court on war crimes you can actually prove. Ones that don’t require proving this intent.

              • VikingHippie@lemmy.wtf
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                10 months ago

                Gaza is very small and very densely populated.

                Which is why everyone knows that you can’t carpet bomb it without genocidal consequences.

                They’ve known this for decades and still they keep doing it. Your bad faith excuses for genocide are more stale than Alexander Fleming’s bread.

                • bustrpoindextr@lemmy.world
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                  10 months ago

                  Your bad faith excuses for genocide

                  This right here shows you didn’t actually understand what I’ve been writing.

                  • VikingHippie@lemmy.wtf
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                    10 months ago

                    Nope. Saying “I don’t approve of it but it’s not genocide” when it’s clearly genocide is denying and thereby excusing genocide, no matter how much you scowl at it.

      • jpreston2005@lemmy.world
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        10 months ago

        The reason you’re getting so much push back on this, is because People rightly recognize the limitations inherent within the legal framework. On top of qualified immunity, and the disastrous effects money and privilege have on the outcome of the system, you get this. Where we all are seeing openly, plainly, that isreal is murdering innocent civilians. broad daylight, recorded with context, murder.

        We finally get some good news about Someone holding them accountable, and then here comes someone saying “TECHNICALLY, they’re not doing anything wrong.”

        I know you’re not saying they aren’t doing wrong, but that’s what it feels like. just another rug pulling moment where beleaguered, war and disaster weary people see a glimmer of justice, and have it snatched away in the same breath. It’s infuriating. It’s insulting. And it’s everyday.

        • bustrpoindextr@lemmy.world
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          10 months ago

          While I don’t disagree with what you’re saying. I don’t fully agree with it either.

          Because what I’m actually stating is. Don’t charge a pedophile with murder, or don’t charge a murderer with child molestation.

          Words and charges matter.

          Think about it like this, since there’s no hard evidence that this is a genocide because of the legal definition. Israel is likely going to win this case. That means they can say they defended their actions in court and won, can’t we all agree that’s bad?

          Charge them with what you can actually prove. They have committed war crimes, it’s just not likely feasible to prove this is genocide without a lot more evidence.

          Don’t get me wrong, sure investigate it, make sure it isn’t. But…

      • VikingHippie@lemmy.wtf
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        10 months ago

        Hamas is not an ethnic group

        True, but they’re only PART of the target group. The target group is all Palestinians, over half of whom are innocent women and children.

        Israel warns or attempts to move civilian populations away from bombing targets

        They don’t. In fact, they order civiliansTO bombing sites

        Israel has done those measures the entire conflict.

        No they haven’t. Stop lying.

        Because genocide requires intent

        For which there is ample fucking evidence!

        • bustrpoindextr@lemmy.world
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          10 months ago

          First off, please read my fucking comments, I don’t support what the Israel government is doing. You’re having an emotional response because I’m showing this situation is more complicated.

          None of that is “ample fucking evidence” if I’m lying so are you.

          I’m sorry this conflict is more complicated than you’d like, but one person who happens to be in a government making a statement does not mean that’s the government’s opinion. You need this thing called evidence. Give me a whistle blower, give me documents. Don’t give me one or two crazy people, there are crazy people everywhere and they aren’t representative of everyone.

          Do you think that it’s America’s opinion that there are Jewish space lasers? Because MTG an American politician made that comment. Or that after rape you should get a shot of estrogen from the ER, that one’s from Ron Paul. Those must be America’s opinion according to the logic you’re presenting.

          Also with regards to the safe zone issues. If that happened frequently you’d have an argument, and if it keeps happening that’s great evidence. But it’s not happened that much so it’s going to be really easy to argue that it was an accident, a misfire, broken communication etc etc etc.

          Again, there are war crimes Israel has committed, if you take them to kangaroo court, you should come at them correctly.

          • VikingHippie@lemmy.wtf
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            10 months ago

            First off, please read my fucking comments,

            I read your fucking comments. You start out by saying you don’t condone the atrocities and then you rattle off a bunch of long disproved Israeli government propaganda in defense of the actions you supposedly don’t approve of and in an attempt to say that it’s not genocide.

            That’s not “things being more complicated”, that’s tired “both sides are bad so this one isn’t that bad” bullshit that hinges on a shitload of false premises.

            You’re having an emotional response because I’m showing this situation is more complicated.

            You’re halfway right: I’m reacting with annoyance and disgust at your pathetic attempts to muddy the waters of what is the worst genocide the world has seen since the Balkan wars of the 90s.

            Regardless of anything else going on, the most important questions have simple yes and no answers:

            1. does it fulfill all but one of the 5 characteristics of genocide? Yes.

            2)Does that make it genocide? Yes.

            1. is genocide ever acceptable, under any circumstances? No.

            You need this thing called evidence. Give me a whistle blower, give me documents. Don’t give me one or two crazy people

            Dude, the least reliable source of the 4 I gave was Newsweek. The others were Huffington Post, CNN and Haaretz (THE most trusted newspaper in Israel) citing sources within the Israeli government itself.

            In what fucking world is that “one or two crazy people”??

            As for the rest of your ramblings, they’re so off base and unhinged that I’m not going to waste any time and effort addressing them.

            Have the day you deserve.

            • bustrpoindextr@lemmy.world
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              10 months ago

              In what fucking world is that “one or two crazy people”??

              Did you even read the sources you sent me? Because it’s this world. Like random politicians making crazy claims is not evidence(hence me bringing up MTG and friends). Your crazy ramblings are getting old.

              And I guess calling Israel out for war crimes is “disproved Israeli government propaganda”? You clearly haven’t read my comments.

              I hope you have the day you deserve too. (I’ll give you a hint, the day you deserve is a day in middle school English class to work on your reading comprehension)

        • bustrpoindextr@lemmy.world
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          10 months ago

          fucking useful tool

          Thanks mate. I know I’m useful. As are dictionaries, and the lawyers that I’m basically just quoting…

          I spread no misinformation. My entire stance was effectively “it’s hard to prove intent” but good job getting aggressively upset about common knowledge.

          • Nudding@lemmy.world
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            10 months ago

            You know it wasn’t a typo right? You’re a useful tool to the Israeli government that’s currently committing genocide lol.

            • bustrpoindextr@lemmy.world
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              10 months ago

              Prove it. Give any evidence, prove that you’re smarter than basically every lawyer outside of the South Africa team and prove genocide.

              If you think I’m a supporter of the Israeli government you didn’t actually read my comments.

              You people act like this conflict is between sports teams, fucking hell.

                • bustrpoindextr@lemmy.world
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                  10 months ago

                  Yes I would, I mean. There’s literally no evidence in that article. It’s just detailing a situation, a horrific situation that needs to stop. But there’s no evidence of genocide. Please again, provide evidence.

                  Yes, Israel has committed other war crimes and should be held responsible. But that’s not the argument.

                  • Nudding@lemmy.world
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                    10 months ago

                    I’m sure you’ll quietly change your mind over the course of the next few years. I guess we’ll have to wait and see.

                  • hakase@lemm.ee
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                    10 months ago

                    We need more nuanced, objective takes like this. Thanks for bringing some rationality to this discussion, even though you’re getting dogpiled.

      • 【J】【u】【s】【t】【Z】@lemmy.world
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        10 months ago

        You are correct on all points.

        The numbers versus Israel’s capabilities speak for itself.

        1% of the civilian population of Gaza is dead.

        Gaza is a tiny area. Most Palestinians don’t live there. The total percentage of Palestinian people killed in this war is 0.004%.

        How is that a genocide?

        If Israel was trying to wipe out the Palestinian people, they have the capability. Are we saying they are doing an intentional genocide but it’s just the most incompetent genocide in history?