“For most markets where DoorDash operates, customers are prompted to tip on the checkout screen, with a middle option already selected by default. If they want to, they can adjust the tip later from the status screen while awaiting their food, or even after it’s delivered. That’s changing today; while blaming New York City’s minimum wage increase for delivery workers, DoorDash announced that for “select markets, including New York City,” tipping is now exclusively a post-checkout option”
It seems so ridiculous given tipping fatigue, that DoorDash is making what should be a given sound like a negative.
This is the way it should be everywhere. I’m sorry but tipping before the order is even delivered creates a fucked up incentive with the drivers and the people getting food. Especially when apps like DoorDash make it very apparent. Who tipped well before they even pick up food. The tip should always be rendered after service.
The tip should be rendered never, people should be paid a living wage.
I’m fine with a tip for over and above service, but otherwise yes I agree.
Worth noting that this will absolutely destroy the gig economy (which I’m kinda also fine with, tbh) and things like food delivery we see today. There is a reason very few businesses delivered prior to the delivery apps.
close but not quite. Tips are given for excellent service. It’s an extra added bonus for going above and beyond. It should not (and as far as I’m concerned) is not used to pay a person’s base wage.
Minimum wage at restaurants in my state is $2.13 an hour. In such cases, it absolutely is used to pay someone’s wages, which is fucked up, IMO.
If a server’ wage plus tip does not federal minimum wage, the business is required to make up the difference. I’m not saying the $7ish an hour federal minimum is a liveable wage.
What makes this extra stupid, is this means the first $5 or so each hour in tips only removes the obligation from the business owner and does nothing to help the server.
That only applies to employees. That does NOT apply to contractors. There is no minimum wage for contractors.
There is no “tipped minimum wage” for most delivery drivers. DD does not have to pay one thin dime if the driver doesn’t make enough tips to reach minimum wage.
Further, the contracted worker is responsible for their own expenses: the IRS says a mile of travel costs $0.655. DD’s usual $2 base pay covers only the first three miles worth of travel expenses, even if the actual travel is much more than 3 miles. I regularly see 12-mile trips with $2 to $2.50 base pay. The driver pays $8 to make these trips; the first $6 of the customer’s tip just goes to expenses before he actually earns anything.
Yes, I agree the whole system is dumb and convoluted intentionally.
minimum wage at restaurants in washington state is $16.28 starting next year. It’s $15.74 right now. They still expect a 18% tip. Should I just say fuck it and not tip?
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It’s an extra added bonus for going above and beyond.
That’s simply not the way it works and you know it. It’s been enshrined as a tenet of economics at this point.
Your statement is accurate and reasonable for servers, who are employees of the restaurant, and are guaranteed to earn at least minimum wage.
But we are talking about delivery drivers. Drivers are generally contractors, not employees. There is no minimum wage for contractors. Further, contractors are responsible for their own expenses. The IRS says a mile of travel costs $0.655. DD typically pays a base rate of $2 per delivery, whether around the block, or 20 miles away. That $2 fee covers 3 miles of expenses, which is about a 2-mile delivery, plus travel to the store.
Typically, the driver ends up paying all of the base pay in travel expenses. The only part of his compensation he actually gets to keep is the tip.
Honestly, I completely agree with this.
Tipping should be a bonus, something that happens once in a blue moon. Not the norm.
You’re just cheap.
This has always annoyed me about food delivery services. Tips are supposed to be reflective of the service delivered. How can I know if that service is going to be good before a driver is even assigned to my order? Prompt after the delivery to add a tip.
Secondary note, if a company cannot pay their employees a living wage without tips than said company shouldn’t exist. Nobody should have to rely on tips to…you know…exist.
So, I deliver for DoorDash from time to time, and it’s made me change how I view tipping in these apps.
I’m not tipping for quality of service (it’s hard to be ‘good’ vs ‘great’ on pick up, drive, drop off as a service, and if the driver manages to do that badly, DoorDash will make it right for you and ding the driver). Instead I’m tipping based on quantity of work, e.g., the distance I’m asking the driver to cover or the size/weight of the order if it’s something like groceries. While this is something that DoorDash should be doing, it’s not and is left to the customer to close the gap voluntarily.
DoorDash likes to act like they’re just connecting customers to people that want to make a delivery, but they’ve set up the system to feel like DoorDash is the service provider rather than the drivers. In reality, drivers should be setting their fees as independent contractors and DoorDash should only be providing the interface.
Tips are definitely not the answer, but…
if a company cannot pay their employees a living wage without tips
Actually, where I live, we don’t have a tip, but companies won’t even if they can. The sad truth is that businesses won’t without pressure. They just call it a social problem, weakness of their country, whatever.
It’s a false assumption.
Again, I believe tips are not the answer.
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Wat. If an order isn’t getting delivered (your words):
if a driver sees no tip, your order is last in line if it gets delivered at all.
Than that’s an even BETTER reason that tipping should 100% be eliminated.
And the best reason Capitalists should pay a living wage; not slum wages, actual living wages.
I should not be effectively bidding for better delivery service. Lol
I agree. Pre tipping is not a good idea.
I also tip in cash whenever I can. Less chance of middlemen stealing it and “server” can decide to declare it as income or not.
Never offer cash tips on delivery platforms. People occasionally claim in their delivery instructions that they will pay an additional cash tip; nobody actually does. Talk to any driver and they will tell you the same: cash tippers are non-tippers.
Drivers can’t even see your offer of a cash tip until after they have accepted the offer. If you don’t offer a tip at checkout, your cash-tip offer is completely indistinguishable from a no-tip offer.
It should be: Let’s pay people proper wages instead of tipping.
yes but the way it stands right now, tips are still important right? until you get to a decent baseline minimum wage, workers will need tips to sustain themselves. is the new wage enough for sustenance in NY?
The way it stands right now, where base wages are not sufficient, is specifically because of tipping. Until people stop tipping, employers will continue to use it to subsidize wages that they should be paying. Whereas if people stopped tipping, the employers could not do that.
I absolutely agree with this. and I know that one of the ways to force employers to pay them fairly is to not tip. there’s still some problems with it, cause first of all minimum wage in the US is horrid, it’s not enough for living at all. but secondly, if everyone were to stop tipping immediately, workers might make lesser than they already are. a better way to go about it is to increase minimum wage to begin with. of course, not really possible IRL so I guess you’d see both happening simultaneously.
Accelerationism 😒
Bit of both… it’s a choice between that or acceptance.
Or you could just refuse to use those services!
There’s no need to make someone your slave and then refuse to tip. Just so your own fucking groceries lol
lol I live in bumfuck nowhere so I don’t already. Also am no yank.
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Probably not lol, at least not in NYC
I’d be more satisfied if they just stopped calling them tips. They aren’t a tip. Door Dash gives drivers about a $2.50 incentive to even bother looking at the orders that pop up, but it’s up to them to decide whether to take the orders. So you’re quietly negotiating with a complete stranger to go pick up some taco bell and bring it to your house at 3 a.m. it’s a bid. Not a tip.
Calling it a tip is disingenuous and why a hell of a lot of people never “tip” at all.
Edit to add: The real abuse of their workers is that they talk out both sides of their mouth about how independent drivers are, but then they weight the system to punish drivers who don’t take bad jobs. If that mess ended the service would improve for everyone on both sides of the order.
They’ve recently lowered the base pay to $2. I’ve had ‘offers’ pop up for $2 on a 10 mile delivery. If I were to accept that I’d be losing money on the delivery.
You say “losing money”, but I want to quantify that for those reading along:
IRS allows us to claim $0.655 per mile in expenses. DoorDash’s $2 base fee covers only the expenses on a 3 mile trip.
A 10 mile trip costs $6.55. DD pays $2.
But that’s not the end of it. That 10-mile trip took me at least 4 miles outside of my zone. I need to get back to it before I can reasonably expect to receive offers again. I need about $9.17 before I earn one red cent. All that driving and waiting for your food took me about an hour. Just to make minimum wage, I need to gross $16.42. DD pays $2. I need about a $15 tip from you to make minimum wage.
at that point, just quit. Right?
Pretty much, yeah. Don’t accept that particular order, unless it is stacked on another order that shares much of the trip.
That doesn’t make sense.
Doordash doesn’t pay you based on the order? Customers are charged more based on how much they order (everything has an upcharge), so I assumed some of that extra money went to the drivers. There’s also I think 2 mandatory fees: a delivery fee and a maintenance fee or some shit. I don’t know if these scale based on how much you order or how far the delivery is etc, but it’s a lot of money. Way more than $2.
I just find it hard to believe the app could exist at all with drivers having the experience you described. Or maybe I misunderstand you. Are you saying that delivery would make you $8.55? (not counting your expenses, obviously.)
DD pays $2-$3 per order in my markets. It is not based on size of order. It is not based on distance. I have seen small, short-distance orders offered for $3, and large, long-distance orders for $2.
They will occasionally offer “peak pay” of an additional $1. This is usually for 2-4 hours an evening, Friday through Sunday. Sometimes, during very busy times in undesirable markets, that will rise to $2 for an hour or two. Rarely (1-2 hours a month) more.
Shop and deliver orders seem to add a per-item fee, but makea no allowance for mileage.
The only other pay I receive from DD is the occasional half-pay when I arrive at a closed store. Uber Eats pays only $3 for this. N
Some markets might have a higher base pay, and/or higher peak pay, but those are still not based on order size or distance. If DD is charging fees based on the size of orders, they are not passing that on to the driver delivering your order.
On average, (counting both short distance and long distance orders together) the base pay does not quite cover the $0.655 per mile that the IRS says I can claim as my expenses. Effectively, the only money I can count as “income” from DD is peak pay and tips.
UberEats has a much more complicated algorithm that seems to be based primarily on actual mileage, but I don’t think it takes the cost of the order into account either.
-sigh- speaking from experience, it doesn’t cost you $0.65 a mile to drive. Perhaps you could make that argument if you bought and insured a new gas guzzler specifically for delivery driving, only took it to the dealership for maintenance/repairs, and only filled up with premium. If you’re doing that, then… you should probably work for someone who makes decisions for you.
The $0.655 per mile is the IRS rate for travel, and is intended to cover gas, maintenance, depreciation, etc.
You are not counting the replacement cost of the vehicle in your calculations. Once you deplete your current vehicle of all of its value, you have to acquire another vehicle, functionally equivalent to the vehicle you started with. If you don’t do that, your “income” is partially from depleting the value of your asset.
Most drivers make that specific error, because it is not a straightforward calculation, and varies considerably on the driver’s specific circumstances. I use the IRS numbers in an attempt to normalize widely disparate expenses.
Even if it does indeed cost you far less than $0.655 per mile, your AGI will be based on the assumption that you do pay that number.
lol yeah sure. I don’t know what kind of car you’re exclusively using for delivery driving, but by your logic mine was covered very quickly. So no, it definitely didn’t cost me $0.65 a mile to drive with that in mind.
That’s fine.
The only thing it really tells me is that you are better off using the standard mileage deduction than itemizing your actual vehicle expenses.
I guess you missed the part where your $0.65/mile driving cost argument totally breaks down.
I would actually be interested in using an app like this where it’s truly a bid… Sounds interesting.
I would argue that that’s what we already were supposed to have. Or at least that’s how it’s marketed to prospective drivers. And then they find out that Door Dash can make you hurt if you don’t want to drive 12 miles into a dangerous neighborhood for two dollars.
Tips are an excuse for employers not to pay their employees a livable wage. If you rely on tips to get by, your employer doesn’t deserve to be in business.
I hate all these gig apps. Use them as little as possible.
Which is never. They don’t provide anything you can’t get with a tiny bit of effort.
If you’re drunk or stoned, it’s much better to order some delivery than to drive anywhere.
Obviously you could plan ahead to avoid this, but I would rather have gig apps than impaired drivers on the road.
I have this alternative app called ‘Phone’. It can do anything the gig apps do: order taxi, order food… that’s pretty much it. “Yeah, but where I live all the good restaurants don’t deliver any more, you have use gig apps”. Yeah, and where I live they do because people don’t use gig apps that much and everyone is happier. You were to lazy to call and now you have to deal with the shit apps. You made your bed…
And talk to a human? Pass
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iopq has the right of it, have you ever had to experience when their meat flaps make noise? Yuck.
I’m sorry, have you actually had mostly pleasant experiences with real humans? Must be nice. Are you with the life complaints department? Yes I’ve had multiple bad interactions with real people and would like to file a complaint.
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You are being voted down by people like me who generally try to shun interaction with other people. I’m no misanthrope, but in my 30+ years of living I’ve not met many people I would always interact with when I have a choice.
I’m being voted down? Good thing my instance doesn’t have down votes.
And if someone doesn’t want to talk to people that’s fine, use the apps. Just don’t complain that the apps got shitty. That was the plan from the start. You had to be stupid not to realize that the moment they got rid of competition they will start squeezing everyone hard. The choice was always between talking to people or giving full control to bad actors. People made their choice, now live with it.
If the establishment has their own online ordering system, I always try to use it rather than things like door dash. If they don’t, I will not call them instead. Maybe that’s just me though
I’m about it. They pay more wages and people should be tipping cash anyway. You don’t know if doordash properly pays out tips
They do pay out tips, because they got sued over not
So they didn’t and now pinky swear that they do now.
How is it not a thing everywhere? Great new feature. Very innovative. Now introduce it everywhere.
Well, that’s a positive development, though probably for the wrong reasons.
Tipping should be optional, a bonus for a good job. Not a subsidy for billionaires who can afford to pay their damn workers triple what they’re making.
But for food delivery services like doordash the tip is a bid to have someone deliver the food. Tbh I dont think the market for it is sustainable. But it’s not really a tip anymore.
How is that a protest? That’s actually a good thing.
Pay your people so I don’t have to pay them.
You’re still paying them, just less directly. It’s not like a restaurant goes to a money tree to get wages for its employees; it’s the same money you gave them for your food. You can price that cost directly into the menu items or have it be a separate tip, but the only effective difference is vibes.
That’s why I refuse to use self-checkout.
The way I see it, I’m either going to be “checking out my groceries”, or I’m going to be “standing in line”, watching a cashier work.
I don’t see a compelling reason why I should spend more of my valuable time waiting and watching someone do a job than just doing that job and moving on with my day.
naw, man. Look at it this way: if you’re checking yourself out, you’re doing labor for them. Maybe every once in a while, you pay yourself a candy bar. Because fuck’em.
Waiting is also labor.
I am spending my time at a task I don’t want to be performing, because it is demanded as a condition of acquiring something I want.
Both are menial labors, requiring no skill. The only way to value them is by time, and “waiting in line” takes much more.
You do you.
What does self-checkout have to do with this paying your workers? Not using it just means you have to stand in line on regular checkout. That’s not benefiting anyone.
You want to give a multimillion corporation free labor so the cfo can buy a new private jet, that’s your prerogative. It’s not mine.
What free labour though? The act of using the little scanner before you put the items in my bag? Yeah, I’d rather do that and go through checkout in 5 seconds than watching someone else scanning my grocieries for 2 minutes (which I then have to put in my bag again).
I’ve someone else get’s a private jet because I save time … well, that’s just a win-win.
you do realize that most large chain grocery stores cut back on check-out lanes because of self-checkout, right? You have to wait in line if you don’t want to use self-checkout because of the cutting back. You’re not saving time. You’re just waiting extra or resigning to checking yourself out. It’s shittier service and you know it.
No idea what you talking about, I’m definitly saving time. Even if there was no line at all at the regular checkout, self checkout is still faster, by a large margin.
At regular checkout a person has to literally pick up every single individual item again and scan it. Even if they are fast, that takes 1-2 minutes. It takes 5 seconds on the self-checkout to scan the mobile scanner and pay with the CC.
Self checkout is the best thing that happend to shopping.
I prefer the option to check myself out. I’m not sure why you’re trying to argue about “resigning to checking yourself out” to people who like it. Those self-checkouts that weigh everything are awful but I haven’t seen one of those in a while.
I don’t go grocery shopping for service. I go to get my groceries and go home. I am capable of scanning my own groceries and prefer not gambling on if the bagger knows what they are doing.
I prefer scanning my own groceries to the point where if there’s a line for self-checkout and an open staffed checkout, I’ll have a closer look at the self-checkout situation and will wait if it looks like it won’t take very long.
Unless it’s Walmart as their self-checkout is usually a busy mess and more fickle than the ones at the grocery stores I go to.
I’m not British. Waiting in line is labor, not the national sport. It is something I would rather not be doing, but I am forced to do as a condition of acquiring my groceries.
Self-checkout takes much less labor, valued in the only way that menial labor can be valued: time.
What? And what does being British have to do with it?
I prefer self checkout for several reasons. And I agree with you - let’s pay workers a living wage. That being said, I don’t put 100% of the financial reponsibility on employers. I feel we (the consumers) need to acknowledge that employers aren’t the sole beneficiaries in this system. Translation; I want a living wage policy to be implemented but also I realize that this means an increase in the price I pay for (some) services. With this in mind, maybe I should receive a discount for using self checkout. Alternatively, how would you feel about being charged directly for the amount of time required for a “checker” to scan your items & ring you up? For example if you paid $0.33/minute this would cover a $20/hr wage.
Disclaimer: This “shared responsibility” can’t be universally applied across all goods & services; employers don’t get carte blanche to pass 100% of these costs onto the consumer. A living wage policy might entail some sort of agreed upon “max profit” policy or “open books” / transparent finances approach.
I feel giving free labor to a multibillion corporation is wrong and no it does not mean we have to pay higher prices. It does mean we can demand c-suite and board members to do without a
dinnersummer home or few.
Fuck tipping but this is just DoorDash being petty.
Just pay people a living wage. You know, like in other developed countries.
Ah man this company is being a real cunt and for that reason we should reduce wages.
… What? What is the goal?
Shifting all of the cost of their employees on to you like any buisiness that can get away with it.
This doesn’t do that though. It makes it harder to tip.
Well, it’s a pretty ingenious way to get all the DoorDash drivers in Ny to quit I guess.
Was that their goal?
I don’t get how this even benefits doordash. It wasn’t costing doordash anything to route the customer’s tip to the driver, was it? That money came directly from the customer, it didn’t come out of the fees doordash collects. So whether or not the customer tips is immaterial to DD’s bottom line, and this only hurts the drivers.
Why are they punishing the drivers for something the state did? Honestly vile.
Companies like Uber, Doordash, etc. think they’re more important than they actually are. They want their drivers to quit in a “Oh yeah, well if we have to pay our drivers a minimum wage now then we don’t want to do business here,” sense. As if delivery services actually help local economies and don’t strangle small businesses and exploit vulnerable job-seeking people. Good riddance, I’d love to see more cities run these companies into the ground.
Frankly the model of ordering directly from a restaurant who had their own delivery drivers was better.
I’d imagine that the people who choose to work those jobs would rather prefer to make that choice themselves instead of random people telling them that they’re being exploited actually and so now they’re jobless, but maybe they don’t actually know what’s best for themselves.
This was my take. A business bro is having an entitlement tantrum and is taking it out on the only people that they can get away with hurting.
Unless they weren’t averaging $17.96/hr before this happened, in which case they might stick around
They weren’t.
Their “goal” was to get drivers to stop delivering in NYC so then drivers would complain and put pressure on politicians to reverse the min wage rule. They believe they’re offering an essential service and it’s disruption will make people rise up to their defense. What’s really going to happen is that people won’t give a shit and just move on to the next thing.
