“We recognize that, in the next four years, our decision may cause us to have an even more difficult time. But we believe that this will give us a chance to recalibrate, and the Democrats will have to consider whether they want our votes or not.”
That’s gotta be one of the strangest reasonings I’ve heard in a while.
We hope that shooting ourselves in the foot today will allow us to run faster in the years to come…
Expecting either US political party to drop its support for Israel is a fool’s game.
Seriously these fucking morons are going to assist the guy who wants a “complete and total ban on Muslim entering our country…” because they don’t like Biden’s support for Israel? I understand this is a no win situation but given the choice who’s going to be better for Muslims domestically or abroad? Clearly the dem. And on that point I wonder if they think trump would have behaved any differently toward Israel? Spoiler alert.
They have a point though, neither d nor r is going to be “good” for Muslims or Palestinians, our track record sorta proves that out.
Seriously these fucking morons are going to assist the guy who wants a “complete and total ban on Muslim entering our country…” because they don’t like Biden’s support for Israel?
Maybe they figure that when Trump was supporting his Muslim ban, they had one major party on their side.
Instead of zero parties on their side and one party gloating that they have no choice.
Never mind a party which is more than happy to call them morons for feeling let down and wanting a candidate who actually stands up for them.
Wanting someone to stand up for you isn’t moronic.
What’s moronic is voting in such a way that elects the party FURTHEST from your ideal.
If the party needs their votes, it should act like it needs their votes.
They certainly know how to act like they need Republican votes.
Interesting. Now we have to stop people from punching themselves in the face? I tell you, you can’t fix stupid.
I tell you, you can’t fix stupid.
Then give up and lose. You’ll get to blame a minority for your problems, just like republicans.
I see this kind of thinking often, with regards to young voters, black voters, blue collar workers, immigrants, women, etc.
‘We’ve checked with the experts and determined that they should be grateful! Why won’t they adjust their lived experience to match our policy platform!!’
It doesn’t matter whether you agree with them. They’re leveraging power. You are free to disregard them if you think your personal narratives are enough to keep you comfort after Trump wins.
If Biden and his supporters want to win, they need to stop arguing with their voters and start listening. It’s not that complicated.
I’ll be comfortable if Trump wins. I’m a cis white male who makes over $200k per year. Hell, I’ll probably get a fucking tax cut.
These idiots are going to be among the first and worst to get hurt.
I’ll vote to try to stop them from hurting themselves but there’s only so much I can do.
Democrats feel entitled to votes from their base are are offended at the idea they might have to earn their vote. They blackmail us with Republicans and victim blame when their bad electoral strategy fails them
This isn’t unique to Democrats, it’s a feature of the left in general. Democrats aren’t bending over backwards to get progressive votes, but progressives aren’t bending over backwards to get moderate votes either. If a Democrat loses, moderates blame Progressives for not showing up. If a progressive loses, progressives blame moderates and the establishment.
I mean how many progressives criticize Bernie’s electoral strategy instead of blaming the DNC? Bernie completely wrote off Florida and Cuban Americans instead of trying to win them over. He aimed for 40% of the vote in the primaries. And he relied on non voters to win.
Democrats and progressives BOTH prefer to bicker with each other and make no efforts to court each other’s base. They’d rather blame each other than critique their electoral strategy. And when fascists rise to power because of this bickering, both will blame each other again.
Bernie completely wrote off Florida and Cuban Americans instead of trying to win them over.
And just like that, candidates are expected to win votes.
This implies their voters are speaking in a unified voice. They’re not. Subsets are, closer to it, but overall, politics is about compromise and consensus.
If you want the power of dominion, go for a monarchy, and if you don’t want to compromise at all, go to war. When it comes time for peace again, it’ll be some manner of compromise.
This implies their voters are speaking in a unified voice. They’re not. Subsets are, closer to it, but overall, politics is about compromise and consensus.
“We decided you’re expendable. We still expect your solidarity.”
I tried asking that question on a post somewhere around here and they pretty much responded like I was the biggest moron who had to be spoken down to.
Because in bizarro world a ban is worse than ethnic cleansing.
Ban + more ethnic cleansing > no ban + less ethnic cleansing
It’s utterly disingenuous to suggest the two are mutually exclusive. The ethnic cleaning only intensifies under Trump, and the ban is in addition to that. Unless we’re in a bizarre world where Trump suddenly loves brown people and Palestinians.
Speculating while ignoring genocide. BlueMAGA is toxic as fuck
Gee I wonder why you guys have practically no meaningful political presence in reality. Maybe if you tell me more about how much I love genocide, I’ll see the purity in your idealistic views and decide to support your cause instead.
Of course, I could fire back that you want dead Palestinian babies since you refuse to go against the most deadly option – but that would be as utterly disingenuous as writing off all Biden supporters as genocide supporters.
Biden allowing their death is the most deadly option. Do you people even hear yourself? I couldn’t give a fuck if you support us or not, which is preferred since liberals tend to co-opt movements and try to redirect the energy to neoliberalism.
Personally I think a Republican actively killing them would be the most deadly option. I’m curious though why you think Biden would result in more Palestinian deaths than any Republican candidate.
The funniest thing about this comment is that it could be easily directed at you as well.
Then again not like the “very shoot ourselves in the foot, but just little bit, instead of lot” on decades long repeat leads to anything good.
If ones vote is to be taken for granted, you have no power. Only way you can hold your own side accountable is by threatening to withhold the vote.
That is bargaining. Voting Democrat nomatter what and after that asking could they please do something, that is begging. Begging rarely works as well as bargaining.
Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. Joys of two party system.
Most likely people just get apathy and instead of flipping to Trump, they simply stay home. Which is the other bargain. What you offer for me to bother to go from my home to the voting station in the first place.
That is their play “you can’t take us for granted anymore, we care about our vote and bargaining power on long term enough to suffer on short term to buy long term relevance”.
Whether it works is different matter. I don’t know, if democratic leadership has the where with all to take their left flank of voters as anything but given serval supporters to be kept in line with “but we are only little bit bad, those guys are really really bad”.
I can’t wait till we find out in a few months how Russian & Iranian money was actually fueling this.
1000% guaranteed. They’ve done it before and their doing it again.
Iranian
I find it a tad unbelievable that Iran would fund the president who assassinated one of their top generals with a missile strike.
Why? Iran benefits from American hostility. External foes help silence domestic dissent.
I watched a video recently that indicated under Biden, the state department has worked to normalize relations between Saudi Arabia and the Israel. They went on to say that Iran supports or even outright funds Hamas, Hezbolla, and a number of other paramilitary groups in the area so they can maintain anti-west sentiment, to prevent an erosion of their regional influence.
Which is to say - a U.S. that’s embroiled in a culture war with a president that has disassembled the state department is ideal for Iran.
Didn’t Trump have a travel ban on Muslims at one point?
Edit: yep, he did
The guy running against Biden has far worse policies with regard to Muslims. If that guy wins it “proves” America wants the worse policies, potentially causing Democrats to switch to those policies to try to win.
Luckily, this is a publicity stunt that I don’t foresee changing any actual votes.
If Biden’s stance on Israel is driving away voters, that’s just normal. This is one of those important polarizing issues, and he can’t avoid accountability, for good or bad. The death count and coverage has guaranteed that.
As for “America wants” language, that doesn’t mean anything. Different people have different goals.
Who are Zionists actually voting for? If it’s not the Democratic party, then why would he continue to be pro-Israel? Whom is he pandering to with that stance?
There are many reasons politicians might be pro war. The military industrial complex is too powerful, among other things.
for “America wants” language, that doesn’t mean anything. Different people have different goals.
Sure, it’s shorthand, but the idea is that the Democratic Party might nominate a presidential candidate who has harsher views about Muslims and Palestine, if they see those views being the reason they lost, or among the reasons they lost.
They would see that they had the “better” policies and still didn’t get the votes from the people who care most passionately about them, so their approach did not work. Maybe they go closer to the protesters view to try to get their votes, or maybe they give up on the protesters as a voting bloc since they couldn’t even get their vote when they had the “better” policies. That would entail going further away from the protesters views.
Either could happen, I don’t know the polling, but my point is that it isn’t just “we will take 4 years of Trump to make our point and make Democrats listen,” they may be taking 4 years of Trump and then proving that no one should align their policy views with theirs going forward because it hurts more than it helps.
Rationally, you have a valid point.
But I can totally understand people who can’t bring themselves to vote for someone actively supporting a genocide. Something that Trump didn’t do during his tenure in office.
Lesser of two evils only works when the distinction is clear to everyone.
Biden needs to separate himself from Israeli genocidal politics, and it seems his cabinet is trying to shift.
So in conclusion, you might consider this a publicity stunt. And maybe it is. But recent elections have shown that you can’t ignore your base, you need to fire them up to really turn them out.
So this is definitely a good move.
But I can totally understand people who can’t bring themselves to vote for someone actively supporting a genocide. Something that Trump didn’t do during his tenure in office.
Trump provided military assistance, approved arms sales, and personally vetoed a bill to end US military assistance to the Saudis in Yemen which is considered a genocide as well.
And his Israel “peace plan” was literally just giving the Israelis everything they wanted so if you’re giving him credit for Israel/Palestine actions you’re literally just giving him credit for not being the president when this happened. He absolutely would have been worse for Palestinians, he just didn’t have the power at the time.
Then they stay home to vote “neither of the above” or in more active form cast ballot voting for “Mickley mouse” aka foiled ballot.
But I can totally understand people who can’t bring themselves to vote for someone actively supporting a genocide. Something that Trump didn’t do during his tenure in office.
Trump was trying to oppress them personally. Maybe sympathy for those suffering a genocide is more important to them than their own safety, but maybe it shouldn’t be.
Also, do you really think Trump wouldn’t support Israel killing every last Palestinian they could?
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The Muslim ban was only oppressing foreign Muslims trying to enter the USA.
It did not directly oppress US citizens who were Muslim
Oh, so just the families of those citizens. Gotcha. I’m sure Trump won’t do worse next time.
Also, that isn’t all he did. He wanted a national registry of Muslim-Americans, for example.
Please, explain to me how doing that wouldn’t be oppressing them.
…and the American base never fails to show its sheer, utter stupidity.
Good thing there’s someone else running in the primary that’s polling 10 times higher than that guy.
Who would that be?
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-primary-d/2024/national/
I guess she’s got double the votes, not 10 times, but it’s funny you haven’t heard of Marianne Williamson.
I’ve heard of Williamson. Those charts say she’s polling in the single digits and is only ahead of some dude named Phillips that I’ve never heard of.
Not sure where you’re getting your 10x or even 2x numbers.
OP didn’t mean some rando that no one’s ever heard of. “The guy running against Biden” meant the only other person with any chance of being president in 2025
I don’t think those graphs say what you think they do. Unless you haven’t noticed that blue line way at the top.
Obviously the incumbent is polling at 80%+, I’m just saying that Phillips is even less likely to challenge Biden than Williamson, so there’s really no point in saying he’s even worse than Biden.
I find it funny that people trot her out as if she’s some solution here. Will you be telling gay men who loathe her for minimizing AIDS to suck it up and vote for her?
If they succeed in electing Trump, Democrats won’t need to reflect about anything because they won’t be allowed to run for office anymore.
But the Anti-Biden folks will be able to tell the next generation that they “stood up for their own ideals!” Sure, they won’t have prevented any genocide, and they will have put the party into power that is currently trying to set up a fascist theocracy, but they can go to sleep knowing they have personal integrity!
/s
The other side of this being someone saying “we’re not going to legislate anything that will help you, and fuck you for asking, but vote for us because we won’t actively genocide you” which is not really a great selling point but yeah at least we’re avoiding the worse stuff.
It’s a bit ironic that it’s always “Vote for Democrats or democracy dies” when that setup is inherently undemocratic, since your vote can’t go anywhere but the single choice that lets you still have a vote
It’s a sucky system, for sure, but we have zero chance to fix it by sprinting towards Fascism.
And perhaps it’s ultimately a lost cause, but given the demographic shift of Millennials and Gen Z, I think it’s far from a foregone conclusion.
Please go look up the political compass. Both parties are fascist.
Yeah, sorry. You’re going to have to give me a source for that claim.
It’s this dumbass forum of 14 year olds called /politicalcompass where a bunch of high schoolers with no life experience try to discuss complex issues through the lens of a four-sided charicature of political ideologies that they call the political compass. It’s total horseshit and the meme has been coopted by actual fascists.
I actually found one source (might have been the same place), and it “analyzes” Biden and Trump from 2020 based on their past policy stances and public statements; it shows Biden and Trump practically overlapping. This is based on some 62 questions they ask community members.
If someone honestly thinks that’s a reasonable analysis of past and especially current stances, I weep for the state of skepticism and rational thought.
As a sidenote, if we look at the polling data the way it should be seen, it’s interesting that those people are so far left that they feel like Biden and Trump are overlapping.
This is exactly what I thought when I read that. What kind of “recalibrating” do they think they’re going to get to do with a christian fascist lording over the country?
I can’t help but have conspiracy theory thoughts, like this is some kind of conservative campaign. It’s hard to rule anything out anymore, and the idea of muslims voting for trump is just that fucking stupid.
Or you could actually hear them out rather than discredit them. Biden is killing their families in mass right now. You want them to think about how Trump might hurt them later? Which is actually happening now? Does making Biden think he will win encourage him to stop participating in the war crimes that he’s being referred to the ICC for?
This is how democracies die.
Wtf are you even talking about? This is the dumbest take of the day by far.
Idiots.
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If you’re one election cycle away from collapse, you’re already dead.
Ah, yes, “recalibrate” to a dictatorship. Republicans LOVE muslims!
“That Muslim Ban was such a good idea and concentration camps at the border, we want to see what the orange one will do next!”
While ignoring WHO built those concentration camps
These fucking idiots.
They must want to completely lose Democracy because they aren’t getting their way. That’s what’s in the ballot.
Then we don’t fucking deserve it or it will be time to refresh the tree of liberty. When disenfranchised people tell you that they don’t see a difference, ask why. These folk have lost family members and are telling you that, from their perspective the only difference between having a R and a D in the White House is whether you show up to protest too.
“Refresh the Tree of Liberty”… that’s some bullshit, Trump gets into office and he’ll chop that tree down himself. Then deport all the Muslims he can. Voting R is the literal version of “chop your nose off to spite your face”.
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If they can’t see a difference between having legal abortions and not, they’re fucking idiots.
Yes, Roe still exists and we need to preserve it by… making excuses for not codifying it.
Hey maybe republicans will do it.
“Everyone to my left is all the way to my right”
Na mine is “those idiots think getting the party furthest from their supposed ideal elected will be good for them”.
Then don’t accuse me of being a Republican for pointing out that Democrats did fuck all to preserve Roe.
If you can’t see the difference between not being able to get an abortion and your mother being dead, then I pity you and your lack of empathy.
If the overturn of Roe has turned you into a one issue voter, then I will pair you off with a 2nd amendment one issue voter and you can angrily jerk each other off.
Na I just picked an issue that any fucking moron would be able to tell the parties apart on.
Hey maybe Trump will be better on Muslim relations though.
Ah yes, Muslims are famously all pro-choice.
TIL discerning between two things is tantamount to support for one of them.
If you look at Democrats and Republicans and see no difference, you may want to ask yourself why a Trump presidency would be the same for you as a Biden presidency. There aren’t a whole lot of non white working class Americans who can say that.
If democracy isn’t working for them, why would they vote for it? Remember, they just voted with Republicans to censure Rashida Tlaib over nothing too, and then there’s all the other stuff like student loans, the child tax credit, gaslighting people about how well the economy is going, etc.
Generally voting for democrats on the federal level just means halting or slowing down the inevitable ratchet towards fashism, not actually improving things, because there always a Lieberman or a Manchin ready to sink anything that would be too lefty.
If democracy isn’t working for them, why would they vote for it?
Because it can get worse. This seems obvious.
Of course it can and will. But just like Weimar Germany, the centrist parties (or in this case, the only non-fascist party) are too busy with their heads up their asses (or scare mongering about socialism) instead of solving people’s issues. Why would they support the party that will punish the few representatives they have any time they stand up for Muslim issues?
BECAUSE THE ALTERNATIVE IS WORSE.
This also seems PAINFULLY obvious.
The alternative in this case being “treating people like you need their votes.”
The party would rather have Trump than the nightmare scenario of acting like their voters are worth anything.
Look, I can’t keep people from hurting themselves. I will call them morons leading up to and afterwards though.
Same as I did for dipshits in red states losing maternity wards now. /shrug
You’d rather blame people for a loss than try to win.
Both options keep getting worse and continuing to paly a rigged game isn’t worth it. The Republicans might just cheat and win and all.the.Biden capitulation will have been for nothing
You show me the policies the Democrats have that comes even close to this- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025
I mean I don’t like the Democrats, but my god… Trump and his people want a one-party state with him as dictator for life and one of his kids succeeding him.
The capitulation would have been for stopping that.
Don’t worry. There will be no shortage of people clutching their pearls and smugly saying they stood up for their ideals by not voting for Democrats, as they ride to concentration camps.
Generally voting for democrats on the federal level just means halting or slowing down the inevitable ratchet towards fashism
Is it an inevitable turn towards fascism, or is it people refusing to vote against fascism because Democrats don’t “inspire” them?
You can either keep shaming non-voters, or democrats could maybe do something for them once in a while that’s not a corporate giveaway disguised as policy.
then there’s all the other stuff like student loans, the child tax credit
I see someone isn’t following what is happening or how this works. The President, leader of the Dems, changed federal policy to forgive student loans (or at least a big chunk of them for a big chunk of the population) and it got struck down by the Supreme Court thanks to the other party. The Dems passed the child tax credit and then couldn’t get it through the house to renew it because of the other party.
Generally voting for democrats on the federal level just means halting or slowing down the inevitable ratchet towards fashism, not actually improving things
Let’s say that’s true, it’s objectively not but let’s pretend it is. Isn’t that still the obviously better option? How the fuck is fascism today better than fascism tomorrow?
FTA:
“a reflection of their outrage over President Biden’s handling of the Israel-Hamas war.”
If that’s legit their position, then they have no candidate in 2024. It’s not like they can vote for Trump.
That may be.
If Democrats need their votes, they’d best listen.
The DNC will ignore them, then blame someone else when they lose
And they clearly stated that they know trump would be worse short term, but they are hoping this puts long term pressure on democrats to represent their issues more.
This has never worked in reality though. Republicans will always pull the country to the right if they win.
If that’s legit their position, then they have no candidate in 2024
Yes. That’s literally their point.
It’s notable that the Republicans have not attempted to court the pro Palestinian voters in reaction to the anger at Biden. Because they are if anything more pro Israel / anti Palestine than the Democrats.
I agree that the Dems are the “only slightly better” party in a few aspects, and they need to do better. But slightly better is still better than the alternative and we need to vote like it.
I use a taxi analogy often when it comes to issues like this. You’re on 8th Street and want to get to 1st Street. There are two taxis in front of you a Blue Taxi and a Red Taxi. The Blue Taxi will take you to 4th Street. The Red Taxi will take you to 21st Street before beating you up and leaving you for dead in the gutter.
Which taxi do you take?
Note: “Neither” isn’t an option because if you don’t choose, then some random people choose for you and shove you in the taxi.
Yes, neither taxi takes you to your destination, but the Blue taxi is a lot easier to recover from and reach your destination than the Red taxi.
Would it be better if you had a taxi that took you to your exact destination? Definitely, but this is where realism meets idealism. In the real world, you rarely have perfect options. You often need to decide which option is closest to perfect for you. In this case, the Democrats/Blue taxi are flawed but are worlds better than the Republicans/Red taxi.
This exceedingly simple logic seems beyond a good portion of the US population.
Blue taxi runs out of gas halfway there because the red taxi siphoned it out for their own use.
Yet in a state where you WILL be shoved in a blue or red taxi no matter what (say, CA for blue), you could vote for a green taxi stand to be put there so at least next time there are more options - or at least the blue taxi will deliver you to 3rd street.
Slightly better?
Here’s a GOP calling for death to all Palestinians.
They’re all paying for it enthusiastically. I don’t care if some posture differently personally.
I will never ever understand minorities that vote this way. I get people who are like me voting conservative, I don’t but I get their self-interest pov. You are literally voting for people who want you deported. They have made that crystal clear.
There was a story about a woman who voted for Trump in 2016. Her husband was then deported as an illegal immigrant. Apparently, she was shocked that the guy who campaigned repeatedly on kicking out all illegal immigrants no matter what would kick out her husband because he was an illegal immigrant.
It was a real “leopards eating my face” moment and shows just how stupid some people are.
Is there really a lot of difference between Evangelical Christian and Muslim? There is a lot in the middle of the venn diagram of things they hate.
Yes. If there is a theocratic takeover of the US it isn’t the evangelicals that are getting deported.
This is pressure to make the Democrats better, whether by changing their stance or getting different Dems.
Would you suggest accepting that the Democrats as they are is enough to stop climate change, end wealth inequality, provide housing and healthcare, end discrimination, reform the police, etc?
Let me know how that works for you. You know after you lose the Senate and Presidency next year. Watch how fast the Supreme Court upholds a Muslim registration program over an issue of standing or by pointing out that the census already requests that information. Then we will get a second travel ban.
You are voting against your own interests.
Who says they aren’t voting Democrat when it comes down to it? They’re trying to improve their voting choice. Ffs.
This is how democracies die. Fascists don’t need a majority to win, they just need their opposition to be splintered. It’s exactly what happened in Hungary, and now it’s too late.
You might want to think long and hard about how you triage your political decisions.
It’s not a Trump campaign. It’s a DNC better pick someone else or they’re fucked campaign. And that’s true frankly regardless of my personal opinion. The dude has sacrificed too many communities to make republicans happy and now the warmongering. He destroyed his own campaign.
This is how democracies die.
Morons.
Yeah sorry these people are idiots and should be ignored. We are in a really dangerous position right now where we could still fall to fascism and need every blue vote we can.
Do they honestly think that a Republican or Trump (who banned people from Muslim countries) aren’t gonna ban them too?
Yeah that worked real well for the people that didn’t vote for Hillary because sanders that shafted by the DNC. DNC never learned their lesson and Trump winning again I doubt they will learn.
I worked for that campaign during that election cycle. You would think that the DNC and coordinated campaigns would learn that not listening to voters hurts you. Shaming them didn’t work last time either.
You would think that the DNC and coordinated campaigns would learn that not listening to voters hurts you.
They would rather lose than listen to voters.
DNC never learned their lesson
At this point I honestly think the lesson they’ve learned is that curb-stomping the progressives and daring them to stay at home gets us all 4 years of punishment under the GOP and in the next election they get 100% of what they wanted in the first place without any actual lefties having power.
When you remember FDR, this is exactly what they did then- FDR, scion of privilege, ran on a progressive platform for an electorate thirsty for lefty policy. He surrounded himself with other left-leaning bluebloods interested in progressive politics but dead set against actual leftists gaining power. They doled out progressive policies as political favors but strictly kept the rabble out of actual power.
Likewise, in the waning years of the Prussian Empire, Otto von Bismarck (a staunch monarchist, facing an uprising of social democracy politics he despised) famously undertook socialist-y policies like socialized medicine and old-age insurance/pensions to steal political support from the social democrats while keeping them strictly out of power.
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I could be wrong but I don’t see that happening until the GOP shatters. I see Dems traditionally as a coalition of basically not GOP voters. Just using single voter issues for this example, Let’s say we had a viable pro choice and pro gun third party, how many people from the current 2 parties would that pull from. I would wager mostly from the dem side which means larger chance of GOP winning. Which is a risk DEMs won’t take and I feel the DNC know this.
