Title basically. He has multiple times sent me anti-communist propaganda, hes leftist but he doesnt know enough about capitalism to hate it, nor marxism to understand it. He just goes with the western mainstream left of hoping things will change by voting, even living in one of the most corrupt western governments. And just like that he hates communism with the typical 8 morbillion dead argument. I think sending him any response about this is gonna make him mad. How do I deal with this situation?
Depending on how receptive he is (and I’m assuming he’s a Yankee), send him some Parenti material. You can either start coy with something like his talk about the “Assassination of Julius Caesar” book that’s pretty tame, or just go straight for the Yellow one or Blackshirts and the Reds if you’re feeling bold. Parenti has a way with words and is more relatable with his New York accent than translated books from distant or long-dead communists.
And always make sure to ask what he thinks, make it a conversation not a one-sided lecture. Eventually he’ll say something you don’t know about yet, so don’t dismiss it out of hand, but try to investigate his claims with him. If all goes well you’ll both come out of it wiser.
So long as you are not confrontational and keep it respectful and educational, and most importantly acknowledge when you don’t know something you shouldn’t fear making him mad. Because if you do it with kindness and he still gets mad, that’s all on him for not being respectful back. That’s a bad sign for the friendship, not just the political divergences.
To add onto this: Parenti is a great start, but I think one shouldn’t just throw books at people. Instead, take what the book says, boil it down, and use it as your argument. Then reference the book as a resource to learn more. So for example, if you want to explain that capitalists will always favor facism over socialism say something along the lines of:
“Well, the rise of both Mussolini and Hitler was actually made possible by capitalists who looked favorably upon the harsh anti-union, and more broadly anti-socialist, stances Mussolini and Hitler took. For example, German Industrialists paid for a lot of the trucks and loudspeakers Hitler used to recruit voters. This pattern can be seen repeated throughout history where fascist dictators were often installed by imperialist/capitalist countries to prevent the nationalization of resources so they could continue exploiting them. If you want to learn more about this I’d recommend Michael Parentis “Blackshirts and Reds” It’s a great introduction to this and reads quite easily in my opinion. I can also provide you with a PDF if you’re interested”
Can i be linked to blackshirts n reds?
Edit: You can find pretty much any book of your liking on annas-archive.org
Thank you!
Enjoy! Parenti is tough to put down. If you like his books, you should check out his recorded lectures too. He’s a good writer and despite not being able to go as in-depth on live discussions, his speeches are all worth a listen too.
Pretty sure he had nightmares about microphones though.
This is great advice! Thanks :D
Let him know that you think those anti-communist materials are wrong or misleading. Offer to explore some of these topics in depth with him in some format(s) that’s agreeable to both of you (video, books, podcasts, whatever). Let him pick some sources, and you pick some sources, and then you both discuss them together.
Most people who are anti-communist are reflexively so, and have simply never heard a lot of key history. Just studying/exploring/discussing communism and its history can undo a lot of that.
As tempting as it might be, you don’t have to go through everything in the propaganda they’ve sent you sentence by sentence and then debunk it. Just have a conversation with them about it and take a look at the real stuff together.
Yeah, this is a good way, lets hope he doesn’t get scared at the word communism.
To reinforce what redtea said, talk about ideas, concepts, try not to use communist jargon, just let the ideas speak for themselves. If your friend has heard any marxist terminology it has almost certainly been painted in a negative light, and they’ve probably been lied to about what it actually means. Start by getting them onto the same page as you with caring about people and slowly but surely work with them to introduce ideas and terminology once they’re in a better position to just not reject it out of hand. Don’t ever try a “gotcha” moment where you reveal that you were secretly teaching them communist stuff, always stick to a “this is what I believe” or “don’t you think these ideas are useful ones?” always keep it personal. They might be able to reject some abstract spooky scary communism that Ben Shapiro told them killed a million billion people, but they can’t reject their friends easily, especially if they agree with them, and if your friend has any empathy at all, they will agree with you, because communist ideas are about helping people.
You don’t have to use it for a long time. You can talk about Marx and Marxists and Marxist ideas. You don’t even have to mention Marx all that much. They’ll realise they’ve become a communist too late.
I was unaware that Marxists were communists. I mean, I knew that communists could be Marxists. But when I heard my friends talking about Marx, it never crossed my mind that they might be communists because that’s outrageous. By the time I realised, it didn’t matter. Marx was clearly right. Whatever follows from that conclusion, so be it.
The state of political education even among graduates is woeful. You can use the confusion to your advantage; and let your friends come to their own conclusions about their own politics. In the meantime, you can give them an accurate picture of the world to guide them along the right path.
Some resources here. The 3rd link is especially good for socdems.
What about democracy? Can’t voting fix our problems?
- Red Phoenix - Pacifism - How to do the enemy’s job for them. Youtube Audiobook
- Halim Alrah - Why liberal democracies are a sham.
- What about social democracy / democratic socialism / the Nordic model? Isn’t Sweden socialist?
- On the unraveling of the Nordic welfare states: increasing inequality and forced austerity.
- Rainer shea - How social democrats help usher in fascism in Germany, and in the US today.
- Scandinavia’s covert role in western imperialism
- Why can’t you acheive socialism through voting in our current democracies?
- Paul Cockshott - On Socialism and Democracy. 2 3
- Comrade Hakim - Why electoralism always fails.
- Why not just vote leftists into office: what’s wrong with democratic socialism?
This is great, thanks. Some links dont work tho.
I found YouTube links in your comment. Here are links to the same videos on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:
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Reddit links were detected in your comment. Here are links to the same locations on Teddit and Libreddit, which are Reddit frontends that protect your privacy.
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hakim link is listed private
Send him communist propaganda.
Might scare him with facts.
Educate him. Explain that the USSR had many flaws but also did many great things. Have your sources ready and stay calm if they don’t agree with you immediately. It is a long and tedious process but there is hope. Especially if their socdem, so they already understand the problems of capitalism they just don´t understand how to overcome them. And ALWAYS stay calm. Don’t get mad. Never stop explaining comrade.
Make sure to explain that the social democracy “successes” were due to the threat of communism. Unions were only big in the US during the Cold War, and got immediately crushed when the USSR fell.
He is in the “I love north-european countries, specially Sweden phase” right now. I think he has too much propaganda of communist countries just being dictatorships, and a neolib idiot friend reinforcing the 10 morbillion dead in gulags. I don’t want to force him to learn, that might have the opposite effect of closing up. I guess I have to be patient. I would have sent him channels like second thought, but for some reason doesn’t want to see anything in english.
You shouldn’t force them to lean. Try to engage primarily with the stuff they bring up. Afterall they are the ones who made these claims so when you address them it isn’t really forcing them to learn, but more of a good faith discussion.
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:
Can you share some specific examples of what he shared and what the context was broadly?
Using communist as an insult, kill all commies, communist death toll, no freedom, no bread, that sort of thing.
This is… not what I was expecting when you said anti-communist.
Sorry if you were specting something more complex, its basically propagandist takes. I have more friends that I try to speak with that do more research, so I have to take diferent aproaches. This one friend doesnt have any class consciousnesses. He is surronded by neolib and fascist culture, its hard for him to see thought that. I have more trouble with this idiotic takes, I rather discuss with someone with a bit of research.
I wasn’t expecting more complexity. Just less desire for murder!
If OP is from the US, it’s not surprising. There are many people who seem reasonable on the outside but who have a gut reaction of “FUCK COMMIES” or “KILL ALL THE COMMIES” that bubble up from seemingly nowhere. 10/10 know nothing about communism besides US anti-communist propaganda.
I’m sure you can guess how they react when Fascism is mentioned.
Yeah, It was in meme format, so it wasn’t really as impactful.
Is your friend fully aware that you are a communist? Does he do all that on purpose?
Also, if he doesn’t really do research, then I think your hope is to use agit&prop content.
If he uses tiktok a lot, for example, then you’ll need to find good content about communism there to send him, stuff like JamesRehwald. Maybe doesn’t even start with communist content yet, but ease his way into it by sending less radical stuff first. Also subversive content like Boy Boy on youtube is great.
You could also always just sit down with him, make clear you don’t like the stuff he says, and have a genuine conversation truly listening to the misunderstandings and issues he has with communism and trying to very patiently debunk it. You’ll need to do some research first and you’ll need to know examples of things he can relate to. It’s difficult, but it’s doable. Just don’t expect him to turn into a comrade because of this though, at best he will be more receptive of the ideas and will be less annoying. After that it’s slowly showing him the way.
He is not fully aware, mostly for not knowing anything about socialism, I sometimes speak with him about moderate leftist measures, he is fine with taxing the rich and such, but maybe I said something too radical for him, like maybe the USSR wasn’t a cartoonishly evil hell, but yeah he is doing it on purpose. Otherwise yeah I’m gonna speak to him about it or send some memes on Insta.
If he’s doing it out of worry for you because he truly believes that liberal nonsense then at least his heart is in the right place although he is misguided. Otherwise, if he’s doing it to be combative and to annoy you than that’s just fucked up the way I see it.
That being said, you seem to care about this person and your friendship, and I think it’s best to be able to talk to him, at least a little. Also, don’t try to walk on eggshells too much by avoiding to speak your mind out, that’s something that didn’t go well for me lol.
I guess he thinks I support dictatorships and he is against it, he is not a combative person, just lost in propaganda. Thanks for the advice I will try to speak with him honestly about this when I have the chance. I just wish he would do some research by himself, would be so much easier.
From similar experience: If you want the friendship to last you have to play the long game and accept that you might not be able to change him. If he is a great person otherwise tell him about your position and ask him to stop sending you anti-comnunist material. Depending on his reaction either avoid politics all together or move on to the long game. People who are entangled in western narratives will not shed those thoughts at a moment’s glance if at all.
Best thing you can do is being level headed and calm even if he is spouting ridiculous nonsense. If you are organised you could introduce him to your comrades. Let him know ML’s are not crazy baby eating monsters.
You could also talk about all of the positive achievements of the UdSSR or current AES countries without mentioning the country in question by name. Think about the old joke where most people agree with the goals and aims of communism as long as you don’t call it communism or socialism. You could something similar and then after a few weeks/months tell him that all of this was actually achieved by country X,Y,Z. Be careful though. Depending on how you present it this could come off as very confrontational.
If you are confident you might be able to educate him more by yourself do it, perhaps you can even convince him to read some theory. Maybe start a book club together. If he is a socdem he has grievances wit capitalism but you need to help him to direct those grievances correctly.
Bottom line that all of this only works if he wants to learn and change. If he is completely entrenched in his thinking with no signs of doubt there is not much you can do. At this point it’s best to ask yourself if you want to risk your friendship or if you cut your losses and accept that he will always be a friend but never a comrade. In this case make sure you are treating him like an outsider when it comes to anything political. Even if you think you can trust him. I don’t know how close your country is to fascism or how severe punishments for communists might be in 5 to 10 years but it’s better to not risk anything and not give him anything that could be used to sell you out.
I dont think he is entrenched, I would say he is starting to look for a better capitalism, and right now thinking about northern-europe, he doesn’t research much so it might take time for him to learn. Just reading a bit of theory would do wonders, but I doubt that will happen. Otherwise yeah, I will need years of patience. We live in a country that killed all socialist some decades ago, we are some of the first people with access to leftist thought In our families and the Internet to ease information transfer. The culture generally is so right leaning here that telling the truth of whats happening feels like an attack to many people.
He is a great person and a good friend, he thinks Im a communist and thats why he is sending me the propaganda. Im afraid of having a confrontation with him and things going bad between us, I guess.
You could always ask him what he thinks communism is/means and whether he says tell him that’s not what you mean. If he’s sharing anti-communism memes, he can’t possibly have an accurate picture of communism. And, sure, communists made mistakes—but nobody is out here trying to relive the USSR exactly as it happened.
Starting with materialist dialectics
Cut him off. He has to come to the water and drink of his own volition. You’ll just break his neck if you try to drag him to the water yourself. If he’s a western white, you’re looking at 98% odds he’s a weak link anyway.
This is defeatism and counter productive. Simply cutting out the people you see teetering on the edge of communism will only isolate the movement. Free exchange of knowledge is the way forward comrade.
That’s the thing, homie doesn’t sound like they’re describing an acquaintance who’s teetering, it sounds like they’re describing an entirely propaganda-poisoned settler-- and you’re assuming that Amerika is ‘fertile’ ground for flipping in the first place. I see this landmass’s settlers as nothing more than a lost cause in almost 100% of encounters.
As a result, I don’t do shit for the settlers-- my only focus is on the colonized. If you want to deal with the settlers at the State Department’s pig trough, be my guest-- but that’ll never be my mandate or focus given I have always believed my community, the Afrikan diaspora, will never know peace, or the ability to build ourselves back up from the sociocultural oubliette we got hurled into without separating from the settlers and constructing New Afrika in their guts.
EDIT: for the pronouns
Everyone I’ve brought to the left originally had anti-communist views that needed to be debunked. It’s possible and not worth giving up in the first day. What is worth giving up is if they’re absolutely refusing to hear anything you say.
I don’t expect America to have a revolution anytime soon nor do I think it’s the place where the global revolution will begin but spreading class consciousness, through whatever means, will always be a good thing. Yes many people are lost causes, it happens, but socdems are left enough that just a little deprogramming can drag them into the fold. This particular point is personal to me because I was that person. I was a Berniebro socdem who thought Scandinavian was pretty cool actually and also communism will never work because human nature and 80 morbillion deaths etc etc. I got better because I was confronted with my own contradictions. Had no one forced that interaction I would not be here.
I understand your pessimism but it will get us no where
I think he might change, but he has to take the steps to learn, I hope with time he realizes that its propaganda, he has a neolib friend which I suspect is influencing him. Im afraid that simply sending him reading material might make him close up to me. And no, I don’t want to cut him off.
You’re walking a tightrope. All I know is every settler I’ve tried to make read ended up blocking me; and I’ve moved on from trying. Always figured there were more worthwhile, less wasteful places to put my energy among my own.
Thanks for the advice, I hope for the best.
To let things slide for the sake of peace and friendship when a person has clearly gone wrong, and refrain from principled argument because he is an old acquaintance, a fellow townsman, a schoolmate, a close friend, a loved one, an old colleague or old subordinate. Or to touch on the matter lightly instead of going into it thoroughly, so as to keep on good terms. The result is that both the organization and the individual are harmed. This is one type of liberalism.
The points from combat liberalism were made with regard to handling members of a party or some other revolutionary org doing a liberalism. It’s nonsensical to apply this to someone who isn’t even a communist yet.
But why should we stop explaining to people outside of communism? Is it nonsensical to expect a principled communist to not give up on explaining the theory to a fellow worker? Should we just give up because we get frustrated?
It’s not letting things slide, is the thing there. ‘Letting things slide’ is keeping him around despite his sending anticom propaganda. It is utter and entire condemnation to be disfellowshipped, on the other hand; and that is how I advocate for handling the lost cause.
Why won’t you reply with procom propaganda? It’s our responsibility to refute and prove wrong the anticom propaganda
Yeah, I feel like just throwing books or videos at your friend is not really productive. You should understand the contents of the materials you want them, to engage with, and instead, explain it yourself. You can then reference those materials as a starting point for him to learn more. This is a lot more tedious of course, but if you, as his friend, are making an honest effort to explain your view in your own words it comes off as a lot more genuine, than if you just throw stuff that other people made at him. This makes it seem as though you don’t really believe in the stuff yourself and also gives them an easy cop-out along the lines of “yeah this video/book/podcast etc. is just commie propaganda and I will not even look at it”. If you rephrase the arguments they are more likely to actually think about them, and also more likely to subsequently look at the sources you provided.
Not only that, but anyone looking to convince anyone of communist arguments needs to actually be doing some form of community work. People are more likely to actually entertain our ideas if they know we are active in our organizing. Not saying this characterizes OP, but too many people in this movement are armchair communists.
Yeah, I have to work with him on this, not against him.
Exactly! Refer to the other comment I made in this thread to get a more concrete example of how that would look like. Also, I have been using this tactic with a lot of my friends and it I’ve seen some pretty good results so far. Of course not everyone will engage in good faith, nothing you can do about that. But for those that do, this strategy has proven pretty effective in my personal experience.
