When your ancestors have been targetted, racialized, abused and enslaved for centuries and the effects of that are still felt to this day, and when you are still being racialized and abused because of the colour of your skin and your heritage, you feel like you have nothing to be proud of. The world is telling you you don’t matter, that ‘your kind’ deserves it.
THAT’S why POC are so adament about being proud. Because when a racist tells them they’re worth nothing, and when the world tells them they’re nothing, they need to rely on themselves and their community.
Being proud is resistance. Against all the shit that has been done to POC, and the shit that is still being done today.
White pride is not resistance, other than resistance to the idea of black pride taking over from a centuries old status quo where white people were the only ones who ‘mattered’. You’re not resisting anything with ‘white pride’. You’re taking away voices and dignity of POC.
It’s no wonder the only people who unironically say ‘white pride’ are fucking nazis. That should inform anyone about the whole concept of it. Don’t weaponize your whiteness.
I was sitting here thinking it’s pretty silly to be proud of things you have no control over, even if you appreciate it over other possible variations of a given attribute. Using it as a means of personal or societal deprogramming is valuable, though, so long as it doesn’t extend to denigrating people who are ‘other’, otherwise you end up with the same problem but different people suffering.
In my mind, LGBTQ Pride is generally called that because Shame was, at least in contemporary history, a huge driver in suppressing LGBTQ existence and freedoms. If it was called LGBTQ No-More-Shame, it would remain antithetical but might not be as catchy. I’m sure other groups will employ the same argument, but it is difficult to overstate how powerful shame and social stigma specifically suppressed LGBTQ expression, and still attempts to in some ways.
To be fair, the right would immediatly counter with “white dignity” or “straight dignity” and accuse everyone holding up LGBTQ±dignity or black dignity of denigrating white dignity and complain about an atmosphere where “whites aren’t allowed to feel the dignity of their race anymore”.
There legitimately are powerful people who are systemically oppressing non-whites/non-straights.
There is a significant amount of people that lack empathy and have never experienced personally this type of systemic oppression, and thus don’t believe it’s real. This is particularly evident on the right where empathy is in short supply. See also: my abortion is the only moral abortion, the government shouldn’t be supporting these freeloaders (but make sure my HUD/food stamps/social security show up on time!), Obamacare needs to be abolished (but don’t drop me from my insurance I need my meds!), etc.
Back to point number one, even the blue team has been unfortunately ignorant about the level of systemic oppression and often serves as a validating factor. It’s one of the small things that I think have been positive about the social media era, these stories are getting to far more people than they used to. When I was in school in the 2000’s, if you asked basically anyone in my predominantly white school (including me, tbh) they probably would have said racism is basically a solved problem and is only a tiny little fraction of the actual experience for POC/LGBTQ++, etc. People with empathy pick up on this faster, but if you say ACAB in a room full of blue team, you’re probably still going to get a lot of pushback…
Speaking of ACAB, a big part of the problem is that people just do not fucking get nuance. Most of even the staunchest ACAB supporters don’t believe that everyone who is a cop or will become a cop is a bastard/bad person, the point is that the institution of policing in this country is systemically racist, systemically corrupt, and systemically insulated from consequences in a way that is unjust and bad for society. Or, shorter, we have heard of the Stanford Prison Experiment, and know that when you give people this type of power you can expect bad things. Thus, there isn’t a way to be a moral cop because the system removes the ability to stay moral, which is also why a lot of those that we would call “good” cops are forced out of the field. Anyway, pretty fucking hard to fit that on a bumper sticker, so we end up with things like ACAB/BLM/Pride, etc.
Yeah, but at least then you can retort with saying “that’s not a very dignified thing to say” while sipping tea with your erect pinkie finger.
Also, I would just open up the gaytes on Pride month, henceforth known as Dignity Month. Let the straights celebrate their missionary position all month long!
Idk the stereotype that gays are indignant polyamorous debaucherists still persists to this day. Even though the straights are still equally as debaucherous. Put differently, people have a different perception of guys who have a lot of Tinder hookups as opposed to guys that have a lot of Grindr hookups. Gay men are much more likely to be slut-shamed than straight men.
I don’t actually think Dignity is a better choice than Pride, I just didn’t feel like being argumentative to someone who I think was receptive to my initial argument. I agree with you 100%.
I think everyone should be proud of their race, which is the human race… No matter ones ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc. we are all the same race. Yes, I know in this context race means something else. But, my point still stands. If everyone would stop worrying about our little meaningless differences and realize that we are all the same race. We would be much better off. Yes, I know that will never happen.
This has always bugged me. It’s strange how labeling someone as “racist” actually works in the racists favour; you’re partially validating their point by implying there’s a greater biological gap than actually exists.
Bigot works well as a replacement if this bugs you, and it’s probably more accurate, people with “racist” views are more likely to be homophobic too.
I mean, idk about other cultures/langages but it does feel weird as fuck to french speakers that English even has a concept of “race” for humans in the first place. In french we only use the word “race” for animals. If you want to refer to someone’s ethnicity, well, that’s the word you use (“ethnie”). Although iirc the distinction is quite recent (from the enlightenment period or something).
And we also have the word “raciste” which refers to one’s belief that there are human races, it doesn’t validate that belief.
Yeah iirc that’s also why human races aren’t really a thing in french.
Although we do use that word for animals’ breeds (which are just subspecies iirc) but I guess that’s just because it wouldn’t really be french if there were no weird exceptions
Nah, racist is a descriptor of a viewpoint, not something that’s inherently built into people because of their ethnicity. So it makes about as much sense to say that calling someone a racist is “validating their point” as saying calling someone a flat earhter somehow validates their ideas about flat earth theory. It’s just a silly line of reasoning.
This is human nature at end of day. If it’s not being white/black, it’s your football team, what country you’re from, or on lemmy crap like whether you use Linux or not.
I never understood it myself but people are morons.
It’s totally okay to be proud of aspects of your heritage. It’s important to also own up to harm done by your ancestors too, especially when you benefit in tangible or intangible ways from that history, which becomes less expected of you the more injustice was done to your ancestors vs done by your ancestors. However… “White” is not a race, white is a skin tone, there is no universal white heritage, even “European immigrant to America” is far from a monolithic heritage. “Black” being considered a heritage confuses some people but that’s because “black” is shorthand for two things that aren’t directly skintone. “Black” refers most commonly to the shared experience and built/rebuilt heritage of the descendents of slaves who’s culture and heritage were stolen from them, brought mostly to the Americas from West Africa, and then systemically oppressed for generations. “Black” can also be used to describe people who share the experience of oppression based on their black skin color regardless of their specific history.
I think white people have the least to be proud of of any other people.
What have we accomplished? We stole land, science, math, technology, the whole concept of civilization, and pretty much anything else you could think of, from non-white people. We stand on the shoulders of colored giants, and act relish the scent of our own shit because of it. Literally a lesson in “history is written by the victor”.
Basically all we really have that’s purely our own is our art, philosophy, and religion. And even a lot of that is stolen and built upon.
The irony of claiming I’M the selective one by quoting me, but missing the next line which reads “I think the language is kind of wrong”.
The implication is I support the idea of a time to celebrate marginalised communities and to raise awareness for their current battles, but I think the word “pride” is the wrong word.
So, Elon dislikes that white people can’t be proud of being white.
Why would a person of any race be proud of their race? Shouldn’t people be proud of their own accomplishments, and those of the people they’ve helped?
I never really understood the rationale here. I support Pride Month for example, but I think the language is kind of wrong.
Shouldn’t people be proud, despite traits which have historically been denigrated?
This is a serious question BTW.
When your ancestors have been targetted, racialized, abused and enslaved for centuries and the effects of that are still felt to this day, and when you are still being racialized and abused because of the colour of your skin and your heritage, you feel like you have nothing to be proud of. The world is telling you you don’t matter, that ‘your kind’ deserves it.
THAT’S why POC are so adament about being proud. Because when a racist tells them they’re worth nothing, and when the world tells them they’re nothing, they need to rely on themselves and their community.
Being proud is resistance. Against all the shit that has been done to POC, and the shit that is still being done today.
White pride is not resistance, other than resistance to the idea of black pride taking over from a centuries old status quo where white people were the only ones who ‘mattered’. You’re not resisting anything with ‘white pride’. You’re taking away voices and dignity of POC.
It’s no wonder the only people who unironically say ‘white pride’ are fucking nazis. That should inform anyone about the whole concept of it. Don’t weaponize your whiteness.
I was sitting here thinking it’s pretty silly to be proud of things you have no control over, even if you appreciate it over other possible variations of a given attribute. Using it as a means of personal or societal deprogramming is valuable, though, so long as it doesn’t extend to denigrating people who are ‘other’, otherwise you end up with the same problem but different people suffering.
That’s a great writeup
In my mind, LGBTQ Pride is generally called that because Shame was, at least in contemporary history, a huge driver in suppressing LGBTQ existence and freedoms. If it was called LGBTQ No-More-Shame, it would remain antithetical but might not be as catchy. I’m sure other groups will employ the same argument, but it is difficult to overstate how powerful shame and social stigma specifically suppressed LGBTQ expression, and still attempts to in some ways.
There are other better choices than No-More-Shame.
LGBTQ Honor / Dignity / Glory (on second thought, this one may conjure images of bathroom stalls, so maybe not this one)
Dignity is pretty solid.
To be fair, the right would immediatly counter with “white dignity” or “straight dignity” and accuse everyone holding up LGBTQ±dignity or black dignity of denigrating white dignity and complain about an atmosphere where “whites aren’t allowed to feel the dignity of their race anymore”.
Because that’s just how they work.
I think there are a few major problems here:
There legitimately are powerful people who are systemically oppressing non-whites/non-straights.
There is a significant amount of people that lack empathy and have never experienced personally this type of systemic oppression, and thus don’t believe it’s real. This is particularly evident on the right where empathy is in short supply. See also: my abortion is the only moral abortion, the government shouldn’t be supporting these freeloaders (but make sure my HUD/food stamps/social security show up on time!), Obamacare needs to be abolished (but don’t drop me from my insurance I need my meds!), etc.
Back to point number one, even the blue team has been unfortunately ignorant about the level of systemic oppression and often serves as a validating factor. It’s one of the small things that I think have been positive about the social media era, these stories are getting to far more people than they used to. When I was in school in the 2000’s, if you asked basically anyone in my predominantly white school (including me, tbh) they probably would have said racism is basically a solved problem and is only a tiny little fraction of the actual experience for POC/LGBTQ++, etc. People with empathy pick up on this faster, but if you say ACAB in a room full of blue team, you’re probably still going to get a lot of pushback…
Speaking of ACAB, a big part of the problem is that people just do not fucking get nuance. Most of even the staunchest ACAB supporters don’t believe that everyone who is a cop or will become a cop is a bastard/bad person, the point is that the institution of policing in this country is systemically racist, systemically corrupt, and systemically insulated from consequences in a way that is unjust and bad for society. Or, shorter, we have heard of the Stanford Prison Experiment, and know that when you give people this type of power you can expect bad things. Thus, there isn’t a way to be a moral cop because the system removes the ability to stay moral, which is also why a lot of those that we would call “good” cops are forced out of the field. Anyway, pretty fucking hard to fit that on a bumper sticker, so we end up with things like ACAB/BLM/Pride, etc.
Extremely well said!
Yeah, but at least then you can retort with saying “that’s not a very dignified thing to say” while sipping tea with your erect pinkie finger.
Also, I would just open up the gaytes on Pride month, henceforth known as Dignity Month. Let the straights celebrate their missionary position all month long!
Idk the stereotype that gays are indignant polyamorous debaucherists still persists to this day. Even though the straights are still equally as debaucherous. Put differently, people have a different perception of guys who have a lot of Tinder hookups as opposed to guys that have a lot of Grindr hookups. Gay men are much more likely to be slut-shamed than straight men.
I don’t actually think Dignity is a better choice than Pride, I just didn’t feel like being argumentative to someone who I think was receptive to my initial argument. I agree with you 100%.
I think everyone should be proud of their race, which is the human race… No matter ones ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc. we are all the same race. Yes, I know in this context race means something else. But, my point still stands. If everyone would stop worrying about our little meaningless differences and realize that we are all the same race. We would be much better off. Yes, I know that will never happen.
This has always bugged me. It’s strange how labeling someone as “racist” actually works in the racists favour; you’re partially validating their point by implying there’s a greater biological gap than actually exists.
Bigot works well as a replacement if this bugs you, and it’s probably more accurate, people with “racist” views are more likely to be homophobic too.
I mean, idk about other cultures/langages but it does feel weird as fuck to french speakers that English even has a concept of “race” for humans in the first place. In french we only use the word “race” for animals. If you want to refer to someone’s ethnicity, well, that’s the word you use (“ethnie”). Although iirc the distinction is quite recent (from the enlightenment period or something).
And we also have the word “raciste” which refers to one’s belief that there are human races, it doesn’t validate that belief.
I’m considering this from the perspective of taxonomy. Race is basically a synonym for “subspecies” which is pretty fucked up.
Yeah iirc that’s also why human races aren’t really a thing in french.
Although we do use that word for animals’ breeds (which are just subspecies iirc) but I guess that’s just because it wouldn’t really be french if there were no weird exceptions
At least the French got that going for them.
Hurry up and overthrow your government already, everyone is waiting for one of your classic revolutions.
yea yea yea we’re waiting till the very last moment so it can look all theatrical and fabulous
Nah, racist is a descriptor of a viewpoint, not something that’s inherently built into people because of their ethnicity. So it makes about as much sense to say that calling someone a racist is “validating their point” as saying calling someone a flat earhter somehow validates their ideas about flat earth theory. It’s just a silly line of reasoning.
Biologically we’re the same species, not the same race. There’s no concept of race in humans
Race was actually invented to justify invading and enslaving people who were different colours
This is human nature at end of day. If it’s not being white/black, it’s your football team, what country you’re from, or on lemmy crap like whether you use Linux or not.
I never understood it myself but people are morons.
Absolutely. Tribalism is toxic.
At least Linux is a choice.
I use Arch BTW.
Because in this case it’s talking more about KKK type of “white pride”.
It’s totally okay to be proud of aspects of your heritage. It’s important to also own up to harm done by your ancestors too, especially when you benefit in tangible or intangible ways from that history, which becomes less expected of you the more injustice was done to your ancestors vs done by your ancestors. However… “White” is not a race, white is a skin tone, there is no universal white heritage, even “European immigrant to America” is far from a monolithic heritage. “Black” being considered a heritage confuses some people but that’s because “black” is shorthand for two things that aren’t directly skintone. “Black” refers most commonly to the shared experience and built/rebuilt heritage of the descendents of slaves who’s culture and heritage were stolen from them, brought mostly to the Americas from West Africa, and then systemically oppressed for generations. “Black” can also be used to describe people who share the experience of oppression based on their black skin color regardless of their specific history.
I think white people have the least to be proud of of any other people.
What have we accomplished? We stole land, science, math, technology, the whole concept of civilization, and pretty much anything else you could think of, from non-white people. We stand on the shoulders of colored giants, and act relish the scent of our own shit because of it. Literally a lesson in “history is written by the victor”.
Basically all we really have that’s purely our own is our art, philosophy, and religion. And even a lot of that is stolen and built upon.
Damn, now THAT’S some racism
why would a person of any gender would be proud of their gender? You seem pretty selective.
The irony of claiming I’M the selective one by quoting me, but missing the next line which reads “I think the language is kind of wrong”.
The implication is I support the idea of a time to celebrate marginalised communities and to raise awareness for their current battles, but I think the word “pride” is the wrong word.
Damn, can you just say: “well my bad, indeed I’m contradicting myself”.
LGBTQI are not marginalized anymore, they are becoming noisy now and it starts to become a bit too much… we have now a “pride month”, wtf.
It’s not a contradiction at all.
The intent behind saying “I support pride month” was about what it represents, not the vocabulary used, which is what I went on to articulate.
I’m really not looking to get into it, but I am convinced LGBTQIA+ people are marginalised and discriminated against.