Israel is deliberately mass.murdering civilians and flattening cities. They did the same thing during their war in Lebanon in 2006 - levelling urban areas like Dahiyeh to cause disproportionate damage as a deterrent. I’ve read that they’ve dropped the equivalents of 33 tons of explosives for every square kilometre of Gaza. To inflict this on one of the densest urban areas on earth on a civilian population is pure evil.
Hamas doesn’t stop murdering innocent civilians, deliberately targets civilians and avoids military targets, and then hides behind civilians.
Israel needs to eradicate Hamas, but can’t do so as Hamas hides behind civilians. Options are to allow Hamas to butcher the innocent, or go after Hamas with civilian casualties.
I don’t like it, but the extermination of Hamas is necessary. The Gaza civilians are in a terrible position if they withdraw their support of Hamas, Hamas will just execute them. It’s shitty, and terrible, but this is all on Hamas and only highlights the need for their removal.
Hamas hides behind civilians, yes. They doesn’t make killing the civilians right. It makes both sides wrong. Hamas is a terrorist organisation. This is not a war as the west bank doesn’t have an army. Israel prevent them having legitimacy as a country. One consequence of this is paramilitary organisations.
When a terrorist takes hostages, we don’t bomb the hostages to get them out. We kill the terrorists if possible and try to free the hostages.
Israel needs to eradicate Hamas, Hamas needs to eradicate Israel. They can’t both be right, thus, it can only be that both are wrong.
This is “war on terror” levels of idiocy.
Was it evil also to bomb and flatten Berlin and the rest of Germany at the end of WW2?
If you are British or American, how do you feel about that?
Back then it wasn’t known that it’s not an effective strategy, Germany’s reaction to those bombings pretty much set the precedent for it becoming a war crime.
And from a German perspective: We started it. And did way worse, e.g. bombing Polish cities with the explicit goal to cause maximal casualties in predominantly Jewish quarters. The allies, meanwhile, did not try to maximise casualties or anything like that but tried to make as many people as possible homeless, in an attempt to lower economic output, gum up the system, etc. Generally speaking, it didn’t work. Have a Kraut video for a lot more context.
And no such thing could possibly be the goal in Gaza as Gaza already doesn’t have an economy. Other possible justifications, such as “have lower overall casualties” (see e.g. bombing Dresden vs. slogging through it like slogging through Budapest) don’t apply because Hamas is not going to surrender and are way more erm entunnelled. To get them out of there you have to get in there. Or maybe pour concrete in all exits you can find? That’d have my blessings.
Furthermore: As a German Zionist I’d rather Israel didn’t slide into complete inhumanity, and further into fascism, thank you. (Ben-Gvir is minister so they’re already half-way there, also, there doesn’t seem to be much opposition against collective punishment). It’s not exactly a thing you wish on a country: It’s pretty much the worst calamity that can befall a country.
What would be your preferred and effective strategy against someone who wants you dead and comes into your home and kills your children? Expect and accept apology?
The priority is creating conditions such that Palestinian teenagers don’t constantly see Israel abusing their families, unjustly imprisoning them, stealing their land and murdering them by the thousands, or else you’ll have Palestinians asking themselves: “What would be your preferred and effective strategy against someone who wants you dead and comes into your home and kills your children? Expect and accept apology?” and joining Hamas.
comes into your home and kills your children
Are you talking about the Deir Yassin massacre?
Eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind, at some point people have to make up and let the past be the past. Currently Israel is going way beyond eye for an eye.
As to the current situation: How about at least having the fucking decency to build a couple of tent cities outside Gaza and let children, the elderly, and vetted people out of that killbox. If that’s too much, how about not bombing areas you previously told people to flee to. This is like the bare minimum to be able to claim you care a fucking iota about humanity.
People gobble up Hamas propaganda and repeat it. On social media a lot of things have become facts that aren’t proven or were shown to be false. For example the alleged bombing of the hospital or the alleged bombing of the escape route.
On the other hand, most people don’t even know that Israel is constantly bombarded from different sides and that there are ongoing attacks on their settlements etc.
People online don’t know because it is an ongoing info war which is very unequal. Hamas and other extremist islamic groups win by numbers alone because the majority of Muslims unquestioning stand behind Palestine.
About 79 % of Israelis are Jewish, there are 16 million Jews world wide.
99 % of people in Gaza and 85 % of people in West Bank are Muslim. 1.8 billion people are Muslim world wide!
Palestine, Hamas and activists invest into social media and propaganda a lot because that’s the war they will almost certainly win. And it comes with huge benefits people seldom acknowledge.
Just think about it: Hamas was able to conduct a mass killing and abduction of civilians and continues to do so and people are justifying it left and right. You don’t see the faces of Israeli victims or photos of the destroyed buildings on Israel’s side online.
You should definitely look up some less biased sources.
People gobble up Hamas propaganda and repeat it.
Are you saying Hamas made up Deir Yassin or what are you getting at? Can you, for a single moment, be actually concrete in your accusations? What, precisely, did I say that is supposedly Hamas propaganda?
For example the alleged bombing of the hospital or the alleged bombing of the escape route.
The escape route bombing happened. The hospital bombing didn’t happen… this time. The IDF has bombed hospitals on other occasions. And don’t get me started on what’s going on in the West Bank.
Palestine, Hamas and activists invest into social media and propaganda a lot because that’s the war they will almost certainly win. And it comes with huge benefits people seldom acknowledge.
And Israel doesn’t?
You don’t see the faces of Israeli victims or photos of the destroyed buildings on Israel’s side online.
Are we living on the same planet? It has been all over the news. Now Israel’s completely disproportionate response is all over the news. That’s how news cycles work.
You should definitely look up some less biased sources.
I’m actually, as already mentioned, a Zionist and quite well-informed, thank you very much. Thing is: I gave up in despair when the fucker killed Rabin, for the first time realising just how fucked parts of Israeli civil society are. Back then it was a national tragedy, now Israel has a minister of national security who called for that very assassination. The short of the story is that it’s better for the Jewish people for there to be no Israel than a fascist Israel, and y’all are heading right into that direction with ever increasing speed.
Yeah, that doesn’t fly in the real world where actions have consequences.
Justice cannot simply be allowed to die in the dark just because both sides are stubborn. We as humans owe reality much more than that. Trying to let the past be the past is what got us here. We have to do something to hold everyone who committed a war crime responsible so all sides feel as though justice has been done.
Forgiveness blackens the soul, bro. Justice is what brings humanity light and those people so badly need light right now.
We have to do something to hold everyone who committed a war crime responsible so all sides feel as though justice has been done.
So what exactly did all those civilians do in terms of committing war crimes? How many Settlers are facing the music for killing Palestinians while doing highly suspicious things such as harvesting olives?
Yeah, that’s a pretty transparent attempt to twist my words. We have international criminal courts. We’ve held tyrants and genocidal maniacs to the hangman’s noose before and need to start doing it again. We’re capable of discerning who is responsible for doing what. We’re adults.
You might not want justice to happen, but the rest of us do, and we won’t be deterred by you.
You are only looking at the consequence of oppressing people until they are out of hope and the only path that remains to them seems to be one of violence.
More violence and more oppression will only cement this and pave the road for the next generation of hopeless militants.
The solution would be to break this cycle but that would require concessions from the hardline Zionists.
You too would feel hate and resentment for those who took your father’s land, bombed regularly, put you under a harsh embargo, no jobs prospects, no hope, and, no future.
🤔 I wonder if it’s even possible to resolve the situation in a just fashion that holds all parties responsible for their actions.
We’ve tried having third parties intervene but it’s becoming such that humanity as a species is taking sides on the issue.
That means it might not be possible for justice to be done. There might not be anything anyone can do except evacuate as many innocent civilians as possible and let Hamas and the Israeli government fight it out to the last man.
EDIT: Addendum to that, we cannot give up on justice just because it seems hopeless, and I do concede it looks pretty fucking hopeless. But we’re humans. We’re the ones who brought justice into this world and we are its only stewards. If we give up on it, all that’ll be left is genocide and abject fucking darkness. We have to find a way.
Are you saying that all the Palestinians have to die to prevent a few Palestinians from committing crimes?
If the actions of a few can condemn an entire population… which seems to be the underlying argument here, then a few Israelis can commit crimes to condemn the entire country…
This is eye for an eye leaves the world blind territory. Collective punishments simply magnify overall violence, they don’t stop it.
You just described why every war is bad.
There is not a single war in the entire history of humankind were exclusively “the bad people” died.
So what you are actually saying is that specifically Israel is not allowed in partaking in war unless they somehow achieve what no one else ever achieved, which is a war without casualties.
With on top of it the added difficulty that Hamas is a terrorist group, so no “official” military targets.
Great, lets let the people who dont want to fight in this war leave… ohh, that’s right, they are all in prison and can’t leave the “combat zone” which is… literally their prison.
The reason this conflict is very polarizing, is you have 1 million children/adolescents, 500k women, and 500k adult men locked in a box, no way out… They can’t leave this conflict… they are trapped. If you were trapped in a room that was on fire, you would want to be let out…
It’s not a war, it’s a goddamn genocide. The Israeli government is making the same mistake the U.S. did in Iraq and as an American who protested the Iraq war as a kid, I watch what is happening and I shake my head in disappointment. 🤦
In this case though, the analogy is only correct if I was also repeatedly setting my own rooms and the rooms beside me on fire. On purpose.
Was it evil also to bomb and flatten Berlin and the rest of Germany at the end of WW2?
Yes. Reckless bombing of civilians is always evil.
I’m always flabbergasted when people bring up other heinously awful things as if it’s some kind of gotcha.
Yes, and add Hiroshima and Nagasaki on that list too.
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What about a cease-fire’s particularly pro-hamas? Cease-fire means both directions.
A ceasefire where Hamas gets to keep their hostages is a huge Hamas victory. Advocating for something which gives Hamas a huge victory will be interpreted by some as support for Hamas.
These demonstrations are full of Palestinian flags, without an Israeli one in sight. It’s hard to argue against them being partisan
What’s the last cease fire that wasn’t broken by regular rocket fire from Gaza?
The Hamas active members can have time to hide and reset for another attack if there is a cease fire. They’ll refortify the hospitals and schools they use to hide, as well as gather civilans for shields. They can set up booby traps for a ground invasion into Gaza.
I’m sure they’ve already done all that considering they were the ones that initiated this conflict. They had to have known a ground invasion was likely after attacking Israel.
They’ve been mostly locked in place since 8th October. There’s no way for them to regroup and refortify with Israel dropping bombs on anything which looks like a terrorist. A ceasefire would let them regroup in civilian buildings, which I think we all want to avoid. They have to qualms with using children as human shields, so we need to keep the terrorists pinned down and get away from those children.
Well then, best just carpet bomb all of gaza then right?
How bad do you think Israel is at carpet bombing? Honestly, multiple weeks of carpet bombing, by any modern estimate, should dismantle all of Gaza. That very demonstrably has not happened.
So are they really, really bad at it or are they not attempting it?
Have you not seen the satellite images?
Yes, of course I have. I am aware of what wars do.
Then you would see the absurdity of your statement.
What you want to do is drive hamas out and destroy and fill all the tunnels they made. Then when you start letting people.back in you try and filter out any hamas or pro hamas people. It be kinda like of the usa had a working southern border… or like how the usa and Canada birder works
Oh, I’m sure the goddamn million Palestinians who have just been kicked out of their homes and seen it flattened to the ground will not have any particular ill will against Israel. All of them will be perfectly subservient saints who will offer the other cheek when Israel keeps pouring out settlements in their backyards.
Terrorists come kill your family. You call the police, and someone replies “there’s been enough violence.” Meanwhile the terrorists continue to advocate for killing your extended family as well as numerous other families, and you know these threats are credible because they continue trying
How sensible is that, to you?
So this is definitely justifying:
- expelling 1.5Mln from their homes
- carpet bombing residential neighbourhoods
- restricting the access to clean drinking water, electricity, food and fuel for the general population
- preventing people fleeing the war zone
- Blocking humanitarian aid to enter
- bombing areas that they told the civilian population is safe
- preventing humanitarian aid to enter the enclave
- Cutting the access to the internet and telephone, so people are not even able to call an ambulance or check how their loved ones are fairing.
- While actively refusing to admit that with their actions they have caused a humanitarian catastrophe, despite what UN, Red Crescent and I don’t know how many more international agencies are saying.
- Refusing to even call for a humanitarian pause to let some needed aid enter the enclave
while killing 10 times more civilians, babies, kids and women and causing immensely more suffering for the innocents.
You can’t be a genius to see that one evil doesn’t give you the right or the moral high ground to commit even greater evil.
preventing humanitarian aid to enter the enclave
Demonstrably not happening, as there are aid convoys in south gaza right now.
preventing humanitarian aid to enter the enclave
I think this is really shitty of Egypt, Jordan, etc to do, yes. Israel and the US tried to get them to take refugees. Took forever to even get them to send aid.
The rest is pretty typical of urban combat, so no, not genocide. If you want civilians to not die in an urban warzone, you ask them to leave the warzone. Urban fighting is ludicrously dangerous.
They let a token number of trucks in to give them a talking point… just like you used it now.
70 trucks were let in since October 7th. The UNRWA had something like 200-500 trucks going in daily before the war…
So normally there would have been 11,000 truck deliveries for humanitarian aid in this window, now there are only 70… 0.6% of need is satisfied, prewar need at that…
All to give you a talking point.
Are you kidding. How many trucks have been allowed. Do you think they are enough?!? We are talking about 2.5 Mln people.
You are writing all this from the comfort of your own house, people there don’t have a roof over their heads. You can’t even fathom what conditions they are living in. Are they all deserve to suffer?
How many more civilians need to die to condemn Israel? 10K, 20K, 50K, 1M?
How many trucks have been allowed.
It’s weird you think Israel is the cause here
Are they all deserve to suffer?
I would prefer none of this happen, but Hamas does not value human life. It’s truly tragic.
I find it very strange that your inference is that I don’t care.
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A division of the Israeli military responsible to overseeing civilian affairs in Gaza (COGAT) said this morning that it would allow increased supplies through the Rafah crossing in the coming days.
Not to mention that the same officials are constantly trying to downplay how grave the situation there is. And today’s looting of humanitarian supplies only comes to prove that people there are really desperate!
I would also leave this here:
Karim Khan said that impeding aid deliveries for Gaza could constitute a war crime and that there must be an effort by Israel to ensure vital supplies are allowed in.
Prior to this, some 500 trucks carrying aid and other goods had entered the territory every day.
So to put things into perspective, for 3 straight weeks only 117 trucks carrying humanitarian aid entered the enclave.
Yeah, they let the aid trucks in, the bombed the aid after it had been delivered.
That is a gross misrepresentation.
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This is disgusting and even though I don’t know you, I know you’re better than this kind of comment.
Innocent people died.
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This comment is wholly uncalled for regardless of any mitigating circumstances
I’m sorry if you are offended by facts. You can always take comfort in the fake narratives created by US and European MSM.
The IDF killed its own citizens on October 7th. This is a statement of fact backed by survivors. So whoever deleted my comment stop censoring the truth please
https://thegrayzone.com/2023/10/27/israels-military-shelled-burning-tanks-helicopters/
It’s less the factual nature and more the presentation and what is implied.
What do you mean presentation?
Trying to diminish multiple massacres with a story about friendly fire, as if those things are at all the same.
You’re a bad person and I’m glad I’ll never see you again
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On lemmy they’re called communities.
Also calling for a ceasefire is not a “pro-Hamas” position. It feels like you’re showing bias here more than anyone else. The Independent is also a large and well respected news outfit, and while many such publications have a lot of opinion pieces that are basically blog posts, this isn’t one of them and is in traditional news format - they’re reporting on a planned protest likely to be attended by a considerable number.
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Lmao you’re reminding me of this random friend I made on Clash of Clans because of my username, he was a meth head and thought he’d found a kindred spirit. My name originates from a software package from Windows 95, Tweak Tools 95, and a pick to make a 90s hacker name.
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Lol sorry if I was a little harsh. But you didn’t link to any of the blog posts that you referred to, and the post you commented on isn’t a blog.
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So every defender of human rights is pro-Hamas according to your twisted logic.
Last night the families released a statement calling the intense bombing on Friday “the worst of all nights”, due to the uncertainty of the safety of their loved ones during IDF strikes.
And guess what, people on the other side of the fence are saying it, now imagine going through this personally with all your family. Not able to reach your loved ones, without food, Internet, or electricity. I am sure if you go through this hell you would change your tune
Generally you use the most firepower directly before committing ground troops, so yes I would expect last night to be the worst night.
Welcome to Lemmy
Meanwhile Reddit is the Israel propaganda machine, so I guess swings and roundabouts?
depends on the sub for reddit. Worldnews is heavy Israel, while publicfreakout and therewasanattempt are very heavy palestine
R/worldnews is a shithole, always has been. Before it became under powermod control there was a split and r/animetitties was the place for news. However I think since the API change that place isn’t as busy anymore.
Europe is also a Zionist cesspit as is UKpolitics
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I don’t have an eye got usernames, but I did notice some really dodgy websites getting posted and people, as they are, just upvote on how much they like the article title rather than the contents ot even the surrouding information.
Great to see the world has some people of conscience.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
The United Nations said the move would prevent aid from reaching Palestinians trapped inside the bombarded territory, with Tel Aviv continuing to fire air strikes on the 25-mile stretch.
Elizabeth El-Nakla and her husband Maged travelled to the region before the Hamas attack on Israel on 7 October, in which Palestinian militants killed 1,400 people, and have been trapped since Tel Aviv’s subsequent retaliation.
“We support Israel’s right to self defence, in line with IHL (international humanitarian law), and continue to push for the protection of Palestinian civilians,” Mr Cleverly tweeted.
Ahead of the weekend, Kyle Gordon, who is leading the force’s command team, told a press briefing: “If somebody is calling for jihad specifically against Israel the officers will intervene, gather the information, report it back into us and we’ll be working with colleagues (from counter-terrorism) in relation to what the best course of action is.”
The head of the Crown Prosecution Service told The Daily Telegraph: “In any case arising from the current protests, there needs to be a very careful consideration of the actual circumstances in which something is said, or a flag is waved or actions are taken.”
The issue is causing splits in the Labour Party, with Imran Hussain, shadow minister for the New Deal For Working People and MP for Bradford East, breaking ranks to demand a ceasefire.
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Promoting Piers Morgan in any shape or form is a bad thing.
How does host being someone changes validity of what guest is saying and who the guest is?
A good host is impartial, and draws out answers from their guest by asking hard questions. A good host will probably piss off everyone over time, because they’ll ask questions that contradict both the interviewee and the viewers’ biases. Piers Morgan is not a good host, he’s a fucking vile wretch that contaminates anything he’s involved with. The world will be a better place after his death.
Yes, ceasefire needs to come asap. Obviously under the conditions that as many Israeli hostages have to be returned and Hamas must be removed.
love to see it
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London is the fair town for terrorists worldwide.
dunno what they’re expecting Britain to do.
As a permanent member of the UN Security Council the UK can call for a ceasefire and the release of all hostages.
We could, but we won’t. Have you seen who’s currently in charge of our country? Even if Starmer gets into power, no ceasefire will be called for.
Our country has a vested interest and lots of money invested in Israel, same as the US.
There is pressure from within the Labour party to have Starmer call for a ceasefire. However he is very much Tory Lite.
He’s a budget Blair. I’m surprised he hasn’t purged all of the left leaning Labour members yet, I thought he had completed that a while back.
I dunno, he’s more posh than Blair, but he’s definitely less capable.
And how does the UN/Israel punish Hamas for the hundreds of civilians that were massacred on the day?
Collective punishment against civilians isn’t punishing hamas, its helping them with their recruitment efforts.
That doesn’t answer the question
It answers your implication that only collective punishment is viable.
That wasn’t my implication. My question didn’t have any implication to it.
Stopping any support for isrel and pushing for others to do so as well would help. Or at least send humanitarian aid to gaza.
Unfortunately most humanitarian aid ends up in Hamas’ hands
how is a protest march in a city, on an island, in a different continent going to do anything in Gaza?
The UK is one of Israel’s strongest supporters after the US, so pressure from them can do a lot.
why would the UK government care what it’s citizens want? I suppose there’s a first time for everything but I rather suspect that it wont be this time
Sometimes, solidary is better than nothing when you feel powerless.
It’s not, but generally in democracies, people protest to let their own government and their fellow citizens know how they feel about an issue.
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When the issue is domestic, they are generally seeking a policy change.
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When the issue is foriegn, they usually hope to influence their own country’s foriegn policy stance/actions on that issue.
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Because Hamas tactics include an information war to win sympathies.
Good question, popular opinion demonstrated against Apartheid and collective punishment gets democratic governments to enforce sanctions, and put economic pressure on the violating country. This is how south african apartheid ended, through slow economic and sanction pressure.
With a lot of effort, we can hope to make London as bad as Gaza?
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Nope, just keep bringing in another 500K-600K per year, of illegal immigrants from predominantly Muslim countries, and they’ll take care of it…
