vs The Expanse: we are headed for some bleak imperialist nonsense but humanity’s salvation will come from… Nevermind, we’re fucked.
Just most of us, except Amos. Amos will be fine.
He is that guy
Nothing this guy can’t shrug off. Litterally.
He’s got the shotgun, you’ve got the briefcase. All in the game, though.
[…] humanity’s salvation will come from alien technology we haven’t discovered yet.
The expense always looked like almost utopic to me.
Truly ? What aspects of it ?
I mean they do have universal basic income on earth but apart from that humanity is all kinds of fucked. And it doesn’t exactly get better as the story progresses.
The fact that the earth is even united and not completely screwed is already a great start. It was even recovering from climate change before Inaros.
The earthers are not doing that bad in the beginning that is true. But the rest of the system have it rough.
The earth is united like the United States is united. The tribes just got bigger is all. Instead of NATO vs BRICS, the Expanse universe has Earthers vs Martians vs Belters. And people are suffering hard on earth as evidenced during Bobby’s trip to the ocean.
Everyone starts to come together in the last book though.
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In a very… Specific way.
Bobby’s saw a very different earth in the books tho.
People living in UBI weren’t really living a paradise but they weren’t homeless hobos like in the show.
Example B of earth being shittastic is the entirety of The Churn novella
The story for The Churn is entirely Earth based and provides a description of what the average life in a crowded, metropolitan city is like in the world of the Expanse. The city of Baltimore has given way to a multitude of crime bosses, and organized black markets. There are multiple bosses who each keep a “family” of personal guards that operate the smuggling of goods, illegal memory implants, weapons smuggling, cybernetic implants, and other illegal goods and services. The story takes place over the course of about two days.
To be fair to Inaros he did end global warming and the overpopulation of earth.
Inaros did nothing wrong.
Chrissie’s fabulous saris
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Mostly they suffer from extreme boredom and mediocre lives. Nothing drastic but soul suckingly unfulfilling.
You mean dystopic right … right?
Not at all. It always looked like something in between for me. Humanity is still struggling but moving forward, and most people live under various kind of regimes but no big bad Empire.
Well the belters have it pretty rough and Mars is basically totalitarian. And without spoiling anything I’d suggest you keep reading, it is worth it :).
Winston Duarte has entered the chat.
The chat has become Winston Duarte.
So you would enjoy the belter life much?
Belters are a vast minority, though.
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As far as I know utopia and dystopia are like polar opposites. I have never heard the take before that the concept of utopia includes that it´s rotten on the inside and only looks perfect. Where did you get that idea from?
A dystopia is properly a utopia with one critical flaw.
Thing is, the Asimov Foundation universe could actually fit in the “past” of the Dune universe.
This idea is oddly fascinating. Now we just need a good sci-fi writer to produce the “missing link”.
Maybe the robots in Asimov’s universe lead to the creation of Erasmus and eventually the Butlerian Jihad.
Yes, that was my idea too :)
I’ll let you all guess which one was published in the 50s and which one was published in the 60s.
Both of these are terrible takes on the books.
Spice is not a solution in dune in fact the whole 4th book and the end of the third are centered around forcing humanity to wean itself off spice so that it may evolve.
The central concept is that humanity must not depend on machine or drugs or complicated eugenics and must instead look inwards and improve itself by facing hardship.
In foundation (at least the start) the complicated maths is essentially there to prove that all establishments fail and survival requires constant change. Very differently from dune foundation sees technological superiority as key to this and importantly the ability for society to change in order to support the technological progress.
Even if you don’t agree with the above neither book aims to “fight imperialist bullshit” if anything they both quite staunchly support the idea of a benevolent dictator controlling all.
Or is Dune about the folly of different types of dictatorship; sadistic, benevolent, religious or machiavellian? Taking only the first book (because that’s as far as I’ve read) every leader is thwarted or confined by the consequences or weakness of their own style of leadership.
I read an interview where frank said that his intention was for Dune to be a cautionary tale about the dangers of charismatic leaders (which is to say, the “classic” hero archetype). Which - for the first book - tracks pretty well. The free are basically just used as cannon fodder for Paul to win back his power (and a lot more), then when he wins, he sets them loose on the universe because he can’t control them.
The trouble I have with that though is that he goes on to contradict that point in later books, but I won’t get into that because I don’t want to spoil anything for you
bitch better have my giant exo-foreskin
It’s honestly crazy how many people can read Dune and completely misunderstand the themes of the book.
Though to be fair, it sometimes feels like Frank himself didn’t fully understand what themes he was going for. Books 1-3 were staunchly “Beware of heroes, charismatic leaders will lead you to evil and despair”, then in GEoD, we find that literally the only hope for humanity was millenia of oppression by a totalitarian government.
But either of those two takes is still wildly better than “spice saves the universe” lol
Dune has one of the most complex (and necessarily logical) universe in it. I’m not surprised every reader found different themes more fitting.
Dune had no good guys, none at all.
Everyone was out for themselves or their narrow view of what was just and best for humanity from their simplistic and self-centered perspective.
Leto 2 was the exception because he was out for his narrow view of what was best for humanity from his broad, self-centered perspective that still didn’t really lead anywhere.
The actual point of the books is that no ideal survives the test of real time, and over time civilization tends to ossify, so we are doomed to catastrophe by our very nature.
Ok but to be fair they were using spice for like 5000 years?
I think Dune has very many themes, but the biggest one is the dangers of religion (which is not really portrayed in the movie I think)
The 2022 movie covers the first half of the first book and that theme only really comes into its own in books 2 and 3.
One of the reasons why the original movie was so good. Stripped out all the religious garbage and kept the worms
The original movie was good for the art direction and fantastic acting by supporting characters.
That’s kinda where it ends though, comparing the two of them, the new Dune features human emotion which is pretty cool; all the main characters were kind of animatronic feeling in the old one imo.
You don´t mean that abomination made by Lynch that shits all over the book do you?!?
OP could at least make the effort to plug the dude’s post.
https://mastodon.social/@flargh/110821695878847573
@flargh@mastodon.social
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I’m still absolutely loving the fact we are on different instances in completely different parts of the world, yet we can still communicate.
better do both just in case
edit: guys maths is HARD
I’m sure there are drugs that make math easy. We just need to find them.
From the Wikipedia page for Paul Erdős:
After his mother’s death in 1971 he started taking antidepressants and amphetamines, despite the concern of his friends, one of whom (Ron Graham) bet him $500 that he could not stop taking them for a month. Erdős won the bet, but complained that it impacted his performance: “You’ve showed me I’m not an addict. But I didn’t get any work done. I’d get up in the morning and stare at a blank piece of paper. I’d have no ideas, just like an ordinary person. You’ve set mathematics back a month.”[66] After he won the bet, he promptly resumed his use of Ritalin and Benzedrine.[67]
so you’re saying I should add benzedrine
Melange, I’m sure. Seeing how it enables you to fold space, I’m assuming it also helps with the math involved.
If it also helps with the math of folding fitted sheets, I’m in!
No form of science or magic can help that. It’s impossible.
They don’t make it easy. They make it better. Source: am mathematician.
MATH AND DRUGS ARE THE KEYS TO EVERYTHING
Source: myself, a computer science major
Lmao, good to know CS majors haven’t changed.
I’ll see you at FurCon in a few, it’s just a matter of time now.
Damn… I’ve already graduated and am back in my country now :(
math is fun!
but I took so many drugs 😭
the “moment of relief when the pain recedes” kind of fun. And then you realize you made a trivial mistake in the beginning and all your conclusions were useless.
Masochist!
Mathochist!
[Relevant]
vs Hyperion:
Dan Simmons: We’re headed for some bleak imperialism nonsense but humanity’s salvation will come from serving AIs we haven’t discovered yet.
Don’t we eventually find out the AIs are oppressing the humans and siphoning off their life-force/brain-power through the use of the portal system and that humanity’s actual salvation comes from deeply believing in the power of love to the point of developing the ability to teleport to beloved places and people?
Iain M. Banks: we’re living in an AI-regulated Utopia, but the AI that we totally trust might be doing some light imperialism on the side.
Pratchett / Baxter: we’re headed for some bleak imperialist nonsense, and another one, and another one, and another one, and oops, a blank…
Edit: added the Long Earth one.
Maybe sometimes there are special circumstances?
Fuck I love the Culture series. Such a good read.
The Culture is so incredibly fascinating. Banks’ death was a loss to science fiction.
The Culture stuff is great but nothing tops The Algebraist. A near-perfect standalone sf doorstop imo.
Big ideas, some laughs, a mystery that you can solve if you’re paying attention, strong characters, interesting aliens…
The last one that hit that sweet spot for me was Mother of Storms by John Barnes.
Hadn’t read The Algebraist yet, so there’s a new one on my list. Thanks! I’ll make sure to check out Barnes, too.
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Actually, you’re right.
Oh well, a humanity, then, just not ours.
Don’t the Dune universe have Mentats?
So, maths and drugs
But the mentats are also on drugs, aren’t they?
Asimov: weird mutants capable of overthrowing the universe should be put down with prejudice.
Frank Herbert: weird mutants capable of overthrowing the universe should be made emperor.
the mule did nothing wrong!
If you read Foundation til the end (Foundation and Earth), you’d see that it’s the other way around.
Neither of the stories present salvation, merely survival.
Warhammer 40k:
we’re headed for some bleak imperial nonsense butBY THE GOD EMPEROR SUCH HERESY IS INTOLERABLE.Image Transcription: Mastodon Post
Peter Cohen, @flargh@mastodon.s…
“Foundation” vs “Dune”
Isaac Asimov: we’re headed for some bleak imperialist nonsense but humanity’s salvation will come from using math we haven’t discovered yet
Frank Herbert: we’re headed for some bleak imperialist nonsense but humanity’s salvation will come from tripping on drugs we haven’t discovered yet
I am a human who transcribes posts to improve accessibility on Lemmy. Transcriptions help people who use screen readers or other assistive technology to use the site. For more information, see here.
Not totally true, like Asimov’s math wanted to reinstate the Imperium, so is kinda the other way arround.
Yes, it was The Mule that introduced the anomaly.
Hey, for spoilers do:
::: spoiler [visible text]] [spoiler text] :::
Thanks. After 50+ years I did not think it would be a spoiler.
Yeah because all people who want to read said book where alive back then /s smh.
and really, is super easy to just put it as a spoiler.
I was not alive then either and read it decades after it was written. Honestly, I think having to use a spoiler tag for a story written almost 80 years ago is not necessary.
I disagree, Stories doesn’t have an expiration date, you can read today The fundation Unspoiled ADM we should try to keep it that way.
