Most people you see on the English-speaking Internet will propagate the narrative that Vietnamese hate China, they would mention the 1979 border conflict, the disputes in the South China Sea, as well as our shared history of conflicts (Chinese dynasties of that would often invade Vietnam). If I have to guess, this is probably because they want to get close to Westerners.
But the Vietnamese speaking side is a bit more nuanced. To generalize: Emotionally, we dislike China, but rationally, we respect China, even more so than we do the US. We aspire the Chinese achievements.
We are aware of the similarities between the 2 nations: Both Marxist-Leninist, both face the threats of color revolutions. Both countries share some similarities in policies as well: national unity, social harmony between different ethnics and religions, emphasis on education, reduction of wealth inequality, lifting people out of poverty, controlling capitalists, etc. Most Vietnamese understand that China, as a neighbor, is inseparable from our destiny, so we should strive toward cooperations that benefit both side rather than enmity that benefit no one. (BTW, most Vietnamese look down on post-Maidan Ukraine).
Culturally speaking, we are one of the non-Chinese-speaking nations that absorb and consume Chinese cultural products the most. Both in the past and current days. Journey to the West 1986 would air on our national television every summer. When I was a child, Wuxia shows were all the rage. Nowadays, it’s the wish-fulfilling romance genre for some reason (featuring ultra rich and powerful and super handsome male lead who is cold to everyone except the female protagonist, Vietnamese netizens call it “Tổng Tài”, some including my niece call it “ngôn lù”). Romance of the Three Kingdoms are popular as well, to such an extent that most of our domestically developed Gacha games are Three Kingdoms themed. We also consume recent Chinese successes such as Black Myth: Wukong and Nezha (my Facebook front page kept mentioning them for months). Also, of all the foreign music genres, Chinese music resonate with Vietnamese the most. Anyway, there will be no end if I try to list every Chinese cultural influence on Vietnam so let’s change topic.
On the flip side, however, there are ultranationalists and anti-communist reactionaries who both openly hate on China for different reasons. The ultranationalists hate China because they lack knowledge and they don’t truly understand what it means to be patriotic. The anti-communist reactionaries hate China for being communist, they hate the Vietnamese government as well. They often attempt to incite conflicts between Vietnam and China, they will sabotage cooperations between the 2 nations. Vietnam’s industrialization had been set back for years because of these reactionary “activists”. The ultranationalists are stupid, but educatable and thus toleratable, but I will not suffer reactionaries for reasons aforementioned.
A long time ago, I also used to dislike China. I liked the US more. But after having engaged with the Americans, I saw through their demerits: arrogance, ignorance, racist (it was towards the Chinese, but it’s still racism), insecured, incompetence, etc. A society that allows stupidity to fester is a doomed society. This made me to have a change of hearts. I concluded that the US is a declining empire and thus not worth aspiring to.
many chinese also dislike Vietnam
I would guess it’s mainly 2 reasons:
They are ultranationalists and Han chauvinists who want to drive China into an imperialist/neo-colonial path (just like the US).
But most of them have seen the apparent hostility from Vietnamese and hate Vietnam for it. This is projection on my part. Because Vietnamese also observe the apparent hostility from Cambodian extremists who see Vietnam as an invader and an occupier (we had to deal with the Pol Pot regime).
On the topic of ultranationalist Chinese, there’s this guy who is very cringe (this link was edited by me because this guy deleted his heavily downvoted comment only to repost a new one). I somehow doubt they are a real Chinese though. Real patriotic Chinese wouldn’t come there to provoke hatred against their own people, right?
Really fascinating, thanks for the writeup. I’ve read a book, “Deng Xiaoping’s Long War” by Xiaoming Zhang, on the Sino-Vietnamese War a while back, written by this Chinese-American professor at the US Air Force College, incidentally first book I ever read that had a “This book does not necessarily represent the views of the DoD or the Air Force” disclaimer on it.
He claimed that “A secret deal may have been made regarding how to address the unpleasant thirteen years so that the interlude would not imperil future Sino-Vietnamese relations. The two sides allegedly reached a tacit agreement that prohibited the media from publishing stories and scholars from conducting studies about the border conflict in hopes that the recent hostility would then fade from memory on both sides of the border. Both countries could then concentrate on rejuvenating their relationship.”
If that allegation was true, it would be a very illuminating insight on the private nature of the inter-party relationship that, after wartime animosities, they could mutually cooperate towards such a pragmatic and far-sighted goal - especially given the narrative of the public animosities between the countries, to near war levels according to the Western media coverage.
My first question then would be if there’s a sense whether the jingoism and animosity, which the Western media constantly trumpets, from the domestic perspective in Vietnam emanates more so from the private media, general population, liberal elements of the government rather than directly from the CPV itself?
My second question is whether the geographic political trends of pre-unificiation Vietnam still persist today. From what I’ve read, one consequence of the general amnesty given by the DRV as it liberated the South and became the unified SRV is the persistence of the South’s bourgeois class dynamics and liberal consciousness in a way that the north had more successfully eliminated. Then the enactment of Doi Moi not long after unification further allowed the persistence of those strains. So would you say the stereotype holds up that the south is generally more liberal, West-worshipping and bourgeois-concentrated than the north these days?
My first question then would be if there’s a sense whether the jingoism and animosity, which the Western media constantly trumpets, from the domestic perspective in Vietnam emanates more so from the private media, general population, liberal elements of the government rather than directly from the CPV itself?
The general population of Vietnam despise jingoism. By this, I mean we don’t like to threaten others with military force in order to further our national interest. Our socialist republic was founded on anti-colonial struggle, to engage in jingoism is to spit on the legacy of our forebears. And as I mentioned before, we look down on post-Maidan Ukraine for failing to safeguard their people against war.
As for the Party and the state, their words are carefully refined, as to not spark hatred and provoke divisions. Our news and media are monitored by the government, so they usually don’t touch politically sensitive topics without approval. Even if political sensation could make them banks, they would rather not be in jail. As a result, most private media only speak about culture and economy.
I am not some governmental insider, so I don’t know how much is the liberal elements within the Party and the state.
Vietnamese’s wariness against China do exist, but Western media has exaggerated it greatly. The Western media often try to sell the idea of a NATO-like alliance to contain China. And this idea is even cheered on by oversea Vietnamese Americans living in the US. But those who truly understand Vietnam know this idea is a non-starter.
My second question is whether the geographic political trends of pre-unificiation Vietnam still persist today. From what I’ve read, one consequence of the general amnesty given by the DRV as it liberated the South and became the unified SRV is the persistence of the South’s bourgeois class dynamics and liberal consciousness in a way that the north had more successfully eliminated. Then the enactment of Doi Moi not long after unification further allowed the persistence of those strains. So would you say the stereotype holds up that the south is generally more liberal, West-worshipping and bourgeois-concentrated than the north these days?
I would say that dividing classes by regions is a wrong approach factually, historically, and politically.
Factually, classes are decided by material conditions and material interests. Those who are benefited from their relationship with the West are naturally more liberal. Those who are benefited from governmental socialist policies are naturally more patriotic. You can’t imagine a farmer from Bến Tre (a southern province) would somehow be more liberal than a rich guy in Hanoi, can you?
Historically, we were able to liberate the South thanks in large part to the support of the local people from the countryside to the National Liberation Front of South Vietnam. The people of the South are just as patriotic as the rest of the nation.
Politically, regionalism contradicts our policy of national unity and social harmony. It is no different from racial discrimination in the US. It serves only to divide and cause conflicts.
But reactionaries would often try to realize regionalism amongst Vietnamese, because they want to cause divisions and destabilize Vietnam. As such, the rude, loudmouth reactionaries would use slurs like “Bắc Kỳ”, “Nam Kỳ” (these were terms used by French colonial to refer to our North and South region respectively) in an attempt to spark hatred. Whilst the subtle reactionaries would try to sneakily introduce the concept of regional discrimination and ideological difference amongst us. You may have come across one of their subtle propaganda, which would be what prompted this question.
Anyway, I may be a Vietnamese, but I am not an all-knowing god, so there might be holes in my understanding. I recommend you forward these questions to @darrion_nguyen and @wrenevans217208 on X/Twitter. Do note that wrenevans might be a bit too… dogmatic, so take the their words with a grain of salt.
Most people you see on the English-speaking Internet will propagate the narrative that Vietnamese hate China, they would mention the 1979 border conflict, the disputes in the South China Sea, as well as our shared history of conflicts (Chinese dynasties of that would often invade Vietnam). If I have to guess, this is probably because they want to get close to Westerners.
But the Vietnamese speaking side is a bit more nuanced. To generalize: Emotionally, we dislike China, but rationally, we respect China, even more so than we do the US. We aspire the Chinese achievements.
We are aware of the similarities between the 2 nations: Both Marxist-Leninist, both face the threats of color revolutions. Both countries share some similarities in policies as well: national unity, social harmony between different ethnics and religions, emphasis on education, reduction of wealth inequality, lifting people out of poverty, controlling capitalists, etc. Most Vietnamese understand that China, as a neighbor, is inseparable from our destiny, so we should strive toward cooperations that benefit both side rather than enmity that benefit no one. (BTW, most Vietnamese look down on post-Maidan Ukraine).
Culturally speaking, we are one of the non-Chinese-speaking nations that absorb and consume Chinese cultural products the most. Both in the past and current days. Journey to the West 1986 would air on our national television every summer. When I was a child, Wuxia shows were all the rage. Nowadays, it’s the wish-fulfilling romance genre for some reason (featuring ultra rich and powerful and super handsome male lead who is cold to everyone except the female protagonist, Vietnamese netizens call it “Tổng Tài”, some including my niece call it “ngôn lù”). Romance of the Three Kingdoms are popular as well, to such an extent that most of our domestically developed Gacha games are Three Kingdoms themed. We also consume recent Chinese successes such as Black Myth: Wukong and Nezha (my Facebook front page kept mentioning them for months). Also, of all the foreign music genres, Chinese music resonate with Vietnamese the most. Anyway, there will be no end if I try to list every Chinese cultural influence on Vietnam so let’s change topic.
On the flip side, however, there are ultranationalists and anti-communist reactionaries who both openly hate on China for different reasons. The ultranationalists hate China because they lack knowledge and they don’t truly understand what it means to be patriotic. The anti-communist reactionaries hate China for being communist, they hate the Vietnamese government as well. They often attempt to incite conflicts between Vietnam and China, they will sabotage cooperations between the 2 nations. Vietnam’s industrialization had been set back for years because of these reactionary “activists”. The ultranationalists are stupid, but educatable and thus toleratable, but I will not suffer reactionaries for reasons aforementioned.
A long time ago, I also used to dislike China. I liked the US more. But after having engaged with the Americans, I saw through their demerits: arrogance, ignorance, racist (it was towards the Chinese, but it’s still racism), insecured, incompetence, etc. A society that allows stupidity to fester is a doomed society. This made me to have a change of hearts. I concluded that the US is a declining empire and thus not worth aspiring to.
I would guess it’s mainly 2 reasons:
On the topic of ultranationalist Chinese, there’s this guy who is very cringe (this link was edited by me because this guy deleted his heavily downvoted comment only to repost a new one). I somehow doubt they are a real Chinese though. Real patriotic Chinese wouldn’t come there to provoke hatred against their own people, right?
Really fascinating, thanks for the writeup. I’ve read a book, “Deng Xiaoping’s Long War” by Xiaoming Zhang, on the Sino-Vietnamese War a while back, written by this Chinese-American professor at the US Air Force College, incidentally first book I ever read that had a “This book does not necessarily represent the views of the DoD or the Air Force” disclaimer on it.
He claimed that “A secret deal may have been made regarding how to address the unpleasant thirteen years so that the interlude would not imperil future Sino-Vietnamese relations. The two sides allegedly reached a tacit agreement that prohibited the media from publishing stories and scholars from conducting studies about the border conflict in hopes that the recent hostility would then fade from memory on both sides of the border. Both countries could then concentrate on rejuvenating their relationship.”
If that allegation was true, it would be a very illuminating insight on the private nature of the inter-party relationship that, after wartime animosities, they could mutually cooperate towards such a pragmatic and far-sighted goal - especially given the narrative of the public animosities between the countries, to near war levels according to the Western media coverage.
My first question then would be if there’s a sense whether the jingoism and animosity, which the Western media constantly trumpets, from the domestic perspective in Vietnam emanates more so from the private media, general population, liberal elements of the government rather than directly from the CPV itself?
My second question is whether the geographic political trends of pre-unificiation Vietnam still persist today. From what I’ve read, one consequence of the general amnesty given by the DRV as it liberated the South and became the unified SRV is the persistence of the South’s bourgeois class dynamics and liberal consciousness in a way that the north had more successfully eliminated. Then the enactment of Doi Moi not long after unification further allowed the persistence of those strains. So would you say the stereotype holds up that the south is generally more liberal, West-worshipping and bourgeois-concentrated than the north these days?
The general population of Vietnam despise jingoism. By this, I mean we don’t like to threaten others with military force in order to further our national interest. Our socialist republic was founded on anti-colonial struggle, to engage in jingoism is to spit on the legacy of our forebears. And as I mentioned before, we look down on post-Maidan Ukraine for failing to safeguard their people against war.
As for the Party and the state, their words are carefully refined, as to not spark hatred and provoke divisions. Our news and media are monitored by the government, so they usually don’t touch politically sensitive topics without approval. Even if political sensation could make them banks, they would rather not be in jail. As a result, most private media only speak about culture and economy.
I am not some governmental insider, so I don’t know how much is the liberal elements within the Party and the state.
Vietnamese’s wariness against China do exist, but Western media has exaggerated it greatly. The Western media often try to sell the idea of a NATO-like alliance to contain China. And this idea is even cheered on by oversea Vietnamese Americans living in the US. But those who truly understand Vietnam know this idea is a non-starter.
I would say that dividing classes by regions is a wrong approach factually, historically, and politically.
Factually, classes are decided by material conditions and material interests. Those who are benefited from their relationship with the West are naturally more liberal. Those who are benefited from governmental socialist policies are naturally more patriotic. You can’t imagine a farmer from Bến Tre (a southern province) would somehow be more liberal than a rich guy in Hanoi, can you?
Historically, we were able to liberate the South thanks in large part to the support of the local people from the countryside to the National Liberation Front of South Vietnam. The people of the South are just as patriotic as the rest of the nation.
Politically, regionalism contradicts our policy of national unity and social harmony. It is no different from racial discrimination in the US. It serves only to divide and cause conflicts.
But reactionaries would often try to realize regionalism amongst Vietnamese, because they want to cause divisions and destabilize Vietnam. As such, the rude, loudmouth reactionaries would use slurs like “Bắc Kỳ”, “Nam Kỳ” (these were terms used by French colonial to refer to our North and South region respectively) in an attempt to spark hatred. Whilst the subtle reactionaries would try to sneakily introduce the concept of regional discrimination and ideological difference amongst us. You may have come across one of their subtle propaganda, which would be what prompted this question.
Anyway, I may be a Vietnamese, but I am not an all-knowing god, so there might be holes in my understanding. I recommend you forward these questions to
@darrion_nguyenand@wrenevans217208on X/Twitter. Do note that wrenevans might be a bit too… dogmatic, so take the their words with a grain of salt.A Reddit link was detected in your comment. Here are links to the same location on alternative frontends that protect your privacy.