I’ll add that to the list of genes I want knocked out when CRISPR gets good enough.
Eh, it’s probably good enough for this. Go for it.
We can do this on isolated cells, but I really don’t think we have a way to distribute such a change across the zillions of cells in a human body.
And even if we could, it’s not clear how much effect altering the gene after the fact would have. Maybe once your apocrine glands have obeyed the gene and developed a certain way, it’s too late.
That said… Sign me the hell up.
isnt crispr itself the way to distribute it?
CRISPR makes gene editing easier, but unless you’ve got a way to deliver it to every cell, it won’t do much unless you’re targeting such a small number of cells that it’s realistic to have a technician physically inject it into a cell.
That would work for an embryo. Ignoring the plethora of ethical issues and the lack of data on long-term effects, it would probably be pretty easy for a scientist to make the change in an embryo and then go through the normal in-vitro fertilization procedure.
For a whole organism, though, it’s more difficult. One obvious solution is a specially modified virus, and that’s under research.
There’s a lot of stuff here if you want to dive deep:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7356196/#sec3-biomolecules-10-00839title
One of the best explanations of this and an actual demonstration of the technology to do this was done In this video on curing lactose intolerance (not permanently).
Whats even crazier is that this video was published 6 years ago and the paper you referenced is 4 years old. With the speed that genetics research is going, both of these are certainly very outdated resources even if the background is mostly the same.
That’s pretty impressive. I hadn’t even thought oral treatments were possible!
It’s amazing.
We can’t make enough. And crispr is for inside cells, there is another layer needed for getting it there, like a virus shell for example.
Well, The Thought Emporium made a pill with a virus that modified the genome in at least some of his cells, and made him lactose tolerant for a year and after that he was left significantly more able to handle lactose than before.
So it’s absolutely possible to some degree, for some gene manipulation at least.
Life pro tip for those who do stink when they sweat:
If you ever find yourself in a pinch, and either you forgot deodorant or it wore off (it’s bullshit that these deodorants last 24+ hours), you can use hand sanitizer as makeshift deodorant. The isopropyl alcohol in the hand sanitizer will also kill the bacteria that breaks down those lipids that cause the odor. You can also substitute rubbing alcohol for deodorant and it generally lasts longer.
Can I just rub some Asian people on me?
Sure, if they let your smelly ass get close enough to them.
The pro tip that we had to give out in college for the newcomers to the ballroom team every semester to mitigate body odor (edit: done in exactly this order):
- Shower with soap.
- Apply deodorant with antiperspirant.
- Put on clean clothes.
You would be surprised how many people in college don’t understand the nuances of these points. Or other basically accepted hygiene practices of the area. For example, cologne or perfume is not “deodorant”. Also, most things are not clean after you wear them (esp if you sweat), and dont become clean again until they are laundered. You may also notice we had to specify “with soap” for a shower.
The bit about antiperspirant is not strictly necessary, but nobody wants to put their hand near or accidentally in a sweaty pit.
Had a college roommate who would walk to the shower in socks, shower (for whatever that was worth), and come back wearing the SAME FUCKING SOCKS. “Do I smell or something?” “Yeah you do bro, and yes it is affecting you socially”.
But did he change his habits? Nope.
Antiperspirant doesn’t agree with my skin, so I use a normal deodorant, but otherwise I fully agree.
You night want to look for one without aluminum. I got a nasty infection when I used a normal antiperspirant but the aluminum-free stuff doesn’t cause me any trouble.
I would add: do these steps in this specific order.
Yeah that’s how it is pitched. Also why I picked numbers and not bullets, but I suppose I could have been more explicit.
Unambiguous pedantry suffices
✋dysfunction?
👉enhancement
In a genetic sense, it is a dysfunction of the gene that causes this. It’s neat because we can actually trace the history of human migrations by looking at the distribution of this particular allele (version of a gene). We have analysed DNA from ancient remains of early Europeans and found that the A allele is absent. It appears like this version of the gene first emerged in an ancient East Asian population.
This gene also determines whether you have dry or sticky ear wax. It’s a neat gene because it’s uncommon for physical human traits to be controlled by one gene — most human characteristics are controlled by multiple genes (polygenic traits); ginger hair is another example of a monogenic trait. ABCC11 is neat because it affects multiple traits: sweat smell and earwax dryness.
It might also be implicated in breast cancer risk (I can’t tell whether that’s in an increased risk or decreased risk), but we don’t really understand yet how that would work. From skimming the research, I would say we generally don’t understand how this gene works at all. We do know some stuff about it and how/why it works, but we’re still a decent way off of actually understanding its implications.
hold on what’s the connection between the two? what type of earwax is present in people with less body odor?
I don’t have an answer for you, but I love how seemingly random it is. Like someone reached into a raffle bowl and was like “Okay ABCC11 you get… Earwax and <shuffles around> …ah. Body odor”.
Or you get body odor and… alas, earwax!
Maybe affects the kind of bacteria that can grow on your body? That’s where the smell in your armpits come from and earwax stops bacteria.
Did you know that you can click the headline to get to an actual article that you can read, which answers this question?
guilty! should have read it before commenting blindly
for everyone else reading,
a dysfunctional ABCC11 gene is also connected to drier, less goopy earwax. “So less of that means less body odor, and also translates to dry earwax.”
I’m not comfortable with calling something that is prevalent in 80%-95% of an area’s population a dysfunction unless it results in remarkably lower life expectancy or quality of life otherwise.
The condition is caused by a loss-of-function mutation. It’s a statement about a protein, not about the whole person.
Edit: ChatGPT explains it better than I can.
The ABCC11 gene encodes an apical efflux pump that helps transport fatty compounds, or lipids, from cells into sweat. When the gene is non-functional, these lipids can’t cross the membrane barrier to reach the armpit. This prevents bacteria from accessing and metabolizing the organic compounds in sweat, which in turn reduces the production of odorant substances.
But are there negative ramifications of this mutation?
I’m not aware of any negative ramifications, but the naming is not a matter of ramifications. This isn’t just an abstract change from more body odor to less body odor. Proteins are machines, there’s a particular protein machine for moving certain molecules out of cells and into sweat, and in people with this mutation that machine doesn’t work. Consider an analogy to a light switch. It’s not a toggle between “emit brightness” and “emit darkness”. There’s a machine on the ceiling for converting electrical energy into light. When the switch is in one position that machine is functioning, and when the switch is in the other position the machine is not functioning. In other words, darkness isn’t an alternate way for the machine to function, but rather the consequence of the machine not functioning.
The lightbulb analogy isn’t perfect because you could say that the switch and lightbulb together are the machine, and that the function of this machine includes the capability to switch on and off in response to a signal. There are many proteins that can also be switched on or off and they’re not “nonfunctional” even when they’re “not functioning”. However, this mutation doesn’t create a protein that can be switched on and off, so I suppose you can think of it like smashing a light which you can’t control with a switch. Maybe the light was annoying and you’re happier without it, but you still broke it.
For a few months, while I was taking Accutane, my earwax turned dry and flaky. It was awesome. It would come out much more easily, it wouldn’t accumulate, and for once my ears stopped producing so much liquid. But I imagine depending on your unique body, it could make things quite a bit worse if you manage to get an earwax blockage.
Disclaimer: do not take Accutane for more than a few months, unless your doctor really knows what they’re doing. Apparently there are significant risks associated with long-term usage.
And pure speculation, but I imagine if you’re not excreting that fat, you might lose a tiny bit less weight when exercising?
Interesting, but how is that relevant to the question:
But are there negative ramifications of this mutation?
It’s speculation, but from my experience with Accutane I can infer the following possibility:
- an earwax blockage could get worse because of dry earwax depending on the particular ear
Also speculation:
- if there’s fewer lipids in sweat, you keep those fats, and potentially you lose less weight.
At the same time, east asian people are not known for having more trouble with being overweight. But that’s probably much more complicated.
I get that part, but why is it a dysfunction? A specific mutation in the oculocutaneous albinism II gene causes less production of melanin in the iris resulting in blue eyes, but we don’t call that a dysfunction despite being more sensitive to light and an increased risk of age-related muscular degeneration. Why would a mutation that makes it so lipids can’t cross a membrane resulting in less odorous armpits be called a dysfunction?
Please see this comment. Also, I don’t know how exactly albinism works on the genetic level but it’s a recessive condition and those are often caused by loss-of-function mutations. I prefer the word “nonfunctional” rather than “dysfunctional” to describe genes and proteins in order to avoid the appearance of a moral judgement (although albinism is harmful, especially without modern technology) but “nonfunction” isn’t a word.
Dysfunction of a gene. Not a dysfunction as in a health problem.
What is a dysfunction of a gene? Is it breaking chemistry?
It’s usually a mutation that doesn’t allow the gene to work properly. An important part of the gene can be deleted or the DNA sequence is changed in some other way. Sometimes a change in just one letter of the code can break the functionality of the gene. When the cell tries to make a protein based on the mutated sequence, it produces a protein that cannot be used for any purpose in the body or it cannot produce the protein at all.
I should add that you can have many dysfunctional genes in your DNA without having any health problems if the genes regulate something optional like hair color and not vital like proper muscle production. So you can have lots of dysfunctional genes without having any medical dysfunction.
This is a good point.
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Is this specificly East Asian? Cause I had an Indian roommate once and that dude could knock out half the city with his stretch.
Yes. It is. The article specifically calls out east asia.
That should be in the title. Asia is huge.
A lot of that is diet and, of course, hygiene. Having 10% less BO doesn’t do anything for you if you’re not showering, or eating garlic gloves whole.
Never eat whole garlic gloves: they’re simply too powerful
Yah, wow, some Indians need to have some intervention done. I know plenty of Indians that are perfectly fine, and then there’s a subset that smell like me after a 2 week solo backpacking trip.
I’m East Asian. My ex (also Asian) said I smelled bad sometimes after exercising, but my current partner (not Asian) says I don’t have any body odor. I do think that when we go to the gym together, their smell far outweighs mine. I can’t smell myself at all, but then again, people are usually habituated to their own scents.
Sometimes, though, when I was a child, my father would come home from the gym, and we could all smell him from a mile away. I don’t know if that’s because the gene skipped him or if it’s just because humans generally think their close family members are stinky.
It’s nice to talk about this when my armpits aren’t in danger of being sniffed by several drunk friends.
I can’t smell myself at all, but then again, people are usually habituated to their own scents.
This is the same reason why people who have cats can’t smell the strong cat urine smell of their own home and clothes, or why cigarette smokers have no idea how much their clothes stink.
Now explain why despite the NUMEROUS no smoking signs, EVERY SINGLE BUS STOP ALWAYS has some asshole who thinks I want cancer, and feel entitled to dominate my air space. I either walk away from the bus stop, or breathe their cancer sticks.
Once you’re rad enough you stop caring what non-rad people think
I mean, these people smell like they’re cosplaying as homeless. Yet wearing air jordans.
IME no one is immune to gym odors. There are still many fats and proteins secreted by non-apocrine glands that are digestible by bacteria, so to eliminate body odor entirely we would probably need to evolve strong antimicrobial secretions or something.
Sweat rinses much of this bacteria-food off of us, but since we started wearing clothes it just transports the bulk of it to what we’re wearing (now stinky gym clothes).
That’s why showering before a workout is so effective for controlling gym odors: most of the bacteria and its food ends up in the drain rather than your clothes. Showering after is then mostly to rinse off salt.
Anyway I imagine the times you’ve smelled people after the gym were simply the times they skipped that pre-workout shower.
I bet it would be wild to be unaware of body odor and run into someone without this gene disfunction.
Like whoa you do WHAT when you sweat? Like every time? This is normal? It smells Iike onions, spices and cheese when you work??
Onions, yes. Spices and cheese? What?
Men tend to smell of cheese and women onions, respectively. I’d love to know whether transitioning alters one’s scent and whether the person tends to notice the change.
Hmmm I smelled of onions before transitioning but my hormones were out of wack before that. I’ll ask one of my friends that was a body builder before her transition if she noticed a change.
That’d be amazing!
She said she did, and if she was cutting water it would be more prominent. Now she only runs and swims so also not doing the same routine.
I also found this. https://www.reddit.com/r/MtF/comments/mo5rf1/does_body_odor_change_with_hrt/
Oh man, I’d never considered dysphoria extending past one’s appearance and mannerisms. Thank you so much for such a complete answer!
It was such an eye opener, I was 29 when I started talking to a therapist about it. Once I let go of the fear it was waves of realization that things started making sense.
Oh big time. I’m a transgender man and it was very noticable for a while when my body odor changed.
more balanced diet ?
I’ve noticed after a workout a balls scent, but I’ve never thought of onions, spices and cheese.
I think it’s diet dependant. I notice there’s a distinct change in my body odor when my diet contains a great deal of onions and spices and a general acrid scent that’s somewhat evocative of funky cheese.
What have you been eating lately? 🤭
My dad once told me Curry has that effect and that’s why Indian people stink.
He was also kinda racist tho so that might not be true.
I have two perspectives to this. I once had several male Indian roommates and I honestly don’t remember them having a scent beyond “male”. I could pick up turmeric from one of them, but I think he used a turmeric toothpaste.
I’m white and afab (not on t at the time) and a decade after having those roomies, I had a half-Indian friend tell me I smell like her dad lol. I think curry odor might just stick to clothing, I make it a few times a week so I’m sure my whole house smells like curry to outsiders at this point
It varies, but I eat a lot of vegetables (especially garlic and onions) and chicken. But, I drink a lot of coffee.
It reminds me of how there is a gene that determines whether eating asparagus makes your pee stink, and there’s a different gene that determines whether you can smell it. I had a friend who didn’t have the stinky pee gene, but her boyfriend did, and she complained of the smell when she used the bathroom after him occasionally. He had the stinky pee gene, but not the gene to be able to smell the stink.
This came up in a random conversation with my friend, before she knew about the genes thing. I was so excited that I got to tell her about a cool science thing that I couldn’t speak for a few moments.
This was pretty much exactly what happened when people started dropping by Japan in the colonial era
Well there’s a pretty easy fix unless it’s an extreme case. Razor and antiperspirant (or just deodorant if you’re worried about aluminium).
A feature, not a bug
Dysfunction ? More liked improved function…can I get the same treatment please?
I somehow got this . I never wear deodorant and don’t get any BO even after a crazy sweaty day .
Just make sure you’re getting some outside feedback on that, I’ve known folks so used to their own “brand” that they just couldn’t tell. Smelled utterly rank and couldn’t be convinced of it.
Most people with BO say that.
I know a guy who didn’t believe he had BO, and if you were standing next to him you wouldn’t notice either. But walk behind him, and suddenly you noticed an awful BO coming off of him.
Always ask someone else if you smell, it’s not always noticeable to yourself.
My girlfriend would definitely let me know . I do get greasy hair if I don’t shower every day .
Maybe she’s used to it. Maybe it’s not that bad to her. Or maybe she just thinks it’s impolite to point it out.
Maybe you’re right and you really don’t smell much. But most cases I’ve seen actually did smell.
Try telling that to the 5-20% of the guys at my gym in Korea who are absolutely ripe. The problem with having most of your population not have major BO is that those that do generally have trouble dealing with it.
I’ll assume east Asians. As you head not too far away from the Pacific, the rest of Asia starts needing deodorant quite badly.
And some Koreans need no deodorant at all.
Many Asians in fact
A decade ago, it was damn near impossible to get actual deodorant, not antiperspirant, in Korea. I had to get folks from The States to mail me Old Spice occasionally.
My partner, Filipino, doesn’t need it either. She uses lime sometimes. Yes, really.
Try buying deodorant at a supermarket in South Korea. Impossible.
Not anymore. At least if you don’t mind Nivea.
what’s wrong with Nivea?
Nothing, but it’s the only choice for deodorant that they carry in most major chain stores.
They keep doing business in Russia
https://www.reuters.com/article/beiersdorf-russia-idINS8N2TL07Y/
One of the most disgusting things I have ever read was from a guy on IRC who said he never bathed: “Women are attracted to my natural musk.” (He also claimed to be ‘voluntarily celibate.’ This was long before incels were a thing.)
so he was a stinky priest
Nope. He was an atheist. That was the IRC channel we were in. I think he was only “voluntarily” celibate because he was a miserable bastard that no one would want to be around even if he didn’t also stink.
The funny thing about these kinds of atheists is that they always have to tell you what they believe in 🤭
I have a friend that isn’t asian that’s like this, dude just bathes, no deodorant necessary, I was incredulous until I discovered this last year. It’s just extremely rare in the western world.
