I agree. I’m not trying to shut down that conversation, just contextualize it a bit and have it be part of both conversations. Both conversations are linked so I don’t see why that wouldn’t be natural.
I think my point is that they really aren’t linked. It is two groups experiencing similar things, but for a variety of reasons the context is completely different. And moreover because the conversation is essentially brand new for one group and extremely well known for the other, talking about them like they are the same cheapens the conversation around the newer group.
I’d liken it to a friend telling you about a problem they’re having and instead of listening to them, starting to talk about your own similar problems. I realize that’s a superficial example but I think it explains where I’m coming from.
I mean in no way to disregard or minimize the long and well documented struggle women have had with body image issues. But I do think men’s body image issues deserve to be discussed on their own merit without always needing to be contextualized through the lens of women’s issues.
When men want to talk about this issue, why do they have to minimize the problems women face first? The meme is literally doing that. And I don’t see any backlash against the author doing exactly what you supposedly condemn here.
You make a fair point. I honestly forgot what the original meme was and had focused purely on the discussion. I’d agree that the original meme isn’t productive conversation (though what meme is, really?).
I think they are linked, though. Objectified male bodies tend to be the type of body that men in charge think is the ideal, the same way that objectified female bodies tend to be the type of body that men in charge think is the ideal.
Most of the women I talk to don’t really care for the ultra-built body type we tend to see in blockbusters. If they’re attracted to the leads it tends to be for other reasons that are orthogonal to them being jacked.
One of the goals behind breaking down the patriarchy is removing the singular vision that our culture tends to have on a lot of issues, since our culture is run predominantly by a single demographic. I don’t think sexualized imagery would ever go away, but a higher variety of that imagery that caters to a wider variety of tastes might help with body image issues.
Men feeling shitty for not being jacked, women feeling shitty for not being slim and large-breasted, black women feeling shitty about their hair, black and asian men feeling shitty about their features because so much of our beauty standards are set on white individuals… It’s all particular flavors of the same underlying issue. There’s no harm in adding women have been talking about this for decades. Let’s team up and stop this bullshit.
I think we simply don’t agree. You lose me at your first paragraph. The second this is framed as anti-man, you lose your audience of men immediately. It doesn’t matter whether it rings true or not. Men don’t feel that seeing buff dudes is the effect of toxic patriarchy bearing down on them. They just wish they could be be strong and powerful like these images they see. Telling them they are the victim and that men are to blame is very counterproductive.
There are some very complex socio-evolutionary-mental issues at play here that go beyond guys simply needing to blame men that are more powerful than them for their insecurities. I should know, I’m a guy who thinks often about images like these and what they mean for me and my ability to look and feel how I want. And I’m happily married for over a decade. It’s not about whether women find me attractive. I want to feel like I’m in the body I want. And what I want has been quietly shaped to an unreasonable ideal over the course of many years. That isn’t something easily changed, and it’s really the crux of things.
I agree. I’m not trying to shut down that conversation, just contextualize it a bit and have it be part of both conversations. Both conversations are linked so I don’t see why that wouldn’t be natural.
“i’m not trying to shut down that conversation i just don’t think your viewpoints are valid”
🤣
I think my point is that they really aren’t linked. It is two groups experiencing similar things, but for a variety of reasons the context is completely different. And moreover because the conversation is essentially brand new for one group and extremely well known for the other, talking about them like they are the same cheapens the conversation around the newer group.
I’d liken it to a friend telling you about a problem they’re having and instead of listening to them, starting to talk about your own similar problems. I realize that’s a superficial example but I think it explains where I’m coming from.
I mean in no way to disregard or minimize the long and well documented struggle women have had with body image issues. But I do think men’s body image issues deserve to be discussed on their own merit without always needing to be contextualized through the lens of women’s issues.
When men want to talk about this issue, why do they have to minimize the problems women face first? The meme is literally doing that. And I don’t see any backlash against the author doing exactly what you supposedly condemn here.
You make a fair point. I honestly forgot what the original meme was and had focused purely on the discussion. I’d agree that the original meme isn’t productive conversation (though what meme is, really?).
I think they are linked, though. Objectified male bodies tend to be the type of body that men in charge think is the ideal, the same way that objectified female bodies tend to be the type of body that men in charge think is the ideal.
Most of the women I talk to don’t really care for the ultra-built body type we tend to see in blockbusters. If they’re attracted to the leads it tends to be for other reasons that are orthogonal to them being jacked.
One of the goals behind breaking down the patriarchy is removing the singular vision that our culture tends to have on a lot of issues, since our culture is run predominantly by a single demographic. I don’t think sexualized imagery would ever go away, but a higher variety of that imagery that caters to a wider variety of tastes might help with body image issues.
Men feeling shitty for not being jacked, women feeling shitty for not being slim and large-breasted, black women feeling shitty about their hair, black and asian men feeling shitty about their features because so much of our beauty standards are set on white individuals… It’s all particular flavors of the same underlying issue. There’s no harm in adding women have been talking about this for decades. Let’s team up and stop this bullshit.
I think we simply don’t agree. You lose me at your first paragraph. The second this is framed as anti-man, you lose your audience of men immediately. It doesn’t matter whether it rings true or not. Men don’t feel that seeing buff dudes is the effect of toxic patriarchy bearing down on them. They just wish they could be be strong and powerful like these images they see. Telling them they are the victim and that men are to blame is very counterproductive.
There are some very complex socio-evolutionary-mental issues at play here that go beyond guys simply needing to blame men that are more powerful than them for their insecurities. I should know, I’m a guy who thinks often about images like these and what they mean for me and my ability to look and feel how I want. And I’m happily married for over a decade. It’s not about whether women find me attractive. I want to feel like I’m in the body I want. And what I want has been quietly shaped to an unreasonable ideal over the course of many years. That isn’t something easily changed, and it’s really the crux of things.