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I don’t think most truly understand that corporations don’t follow a moral compass when it comes to respecting boundaries
While that may be true, I don’t think understanding that companies are evil is enough to convince anyone to care about privacy. I’ve known corporations are evil for well over a decade but I only started caring about privacy at all a few weeks ago. the issue is that privacy feels so unnatainable to average people that it may as well be a myth. how can you even think about if your internet history is private when you don’t even know how to access internet history yourself? even if you do, it’s not like these companies gossip to your friends about your mundane secrets anyway, it’s just some faceless entity filing it away somewhere to probably be forgotten. that’s the perception I had at least, and I know I wasn’t the only one. what really changed my mind about privacy was being immersed in a community of people that cared about privacy and took time to show that it can be achievable and even convenient both to understand the forces and technologies at play and to actually live a more privacy focused life.
I want to give this comment an award. Maybe instead of metals, we can use food which have inherent / immediate value.
So, gilding with Lemmy Sashimi
Or something
🍋
lemons for lemmings?
I like the idea of awards that donate proceeds to food security charities, even though it’s only tangential to what you said.
I think most people are just overwhelmed most of the time and just want to live their lives and feel connected. There’s no immediate pain of giving up personal information just a vague threat of some future danger. We’re bad at caring about those types of things, generally speaking, just look at how we are handling climate change.
Yeah, I’m often thinking “am I sounding crazy right now?” when I ever mention that I care about privacy.
I kind of understand the issues with privacy, but not really. What don’t you want online companies to know and why?
I don’t want them to know anything that isn’t completely necessary, and even that should be wiped as soon as it’s no longer relevant. Why should I be okay with corps recording all of my online behavior and preferences just so they can sell that info for a bit of extra profit?
To play devil’s advocate, hosting the platform for social media isnt free, and if something, especially a service is offered for free, you are usually the product.
Then it becomes a game of convincing people to pay for more privacy, or sell privacy for a “free” service.
My issue isn’t so much what they are doing with it, what the could do with it in the future. As of now, they’re just trying to sell me shit I’m not going to buy, and influence my political and social views. I already avoid ads like the plague, and I’m pretty set on my politics.
What concerns me with this whole digital personality profile is that it wouldn’t take much for bad actors to get their hands on this info, and use it to unequivocally screw me or my family. Force us to pay more for less on an individual level, deny opportunity, etc
tbh I’d rather pay like 5$/month for a good platform that respects my privacy than giving that away like we’re doing right now
the problem is that that information is worth way more than $5/month/person
my personal problem isn’t the fact that they know a lot about me, but the fact that they can sell that information to advertisers and make millions of dollars of something I didn’t give them willingly (sure, knowingly but not willingly)
Anything I wouldn’t tell a random stranger. Like who are my friends, their phone numbers, where I live, my full name, my location at all times, etc.
Not nearly tin foil hat enough /s
Suppose a bad actor gets access to this information. Suppose this bad actor has the “political view” that people with your specific profile shouldn’t be allowed to vote. Suppose they have the network to get a small army of really big guys to stand in front of your house on election day. That’s a very superficial example on why you shouldn’t want companies to have any of your data unless it’s necessary.
Not just an example, it happens in black neighborhoods in the South every election. Usually at polling centers or churches instead of individual houses, but if they had the manpower they’d go to houses.
Anything more than necessary. Why do you want them to know? I wouldn’t let a stranger follow me around, so why should I allow a tracking cookie on my browser? It’s scary and offensive.
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you’re only starving yourself of warmth
And that is NOT how pool water works.
who said anything about “water”?
I legit thought it was peanut butter.
Yum!
they’re laughing at him for pissing in the lemonade pool (he drank lots of water)
They’re pissing on him for laughing in the water pool (he drank lots of lemonade)
What we don’t realize is the guy in the center drank a lot of Powerade, and is relieving himself in the lemonade pool.
I often wonder if this is some sort of lack of self worth thing. Like, people don’t see their data as important because they don’t see themselves as important in the grand scheme of things? Do they thing one person isn’t gonna change anything?
I get algorithms and shit are designed to be addicted and keep you coming back, but is there a deeper part to this?
Or am I just the crazy one? Does all of this not matter? I mean, I know it doesn’t, in the grand scheme nothing matters. But at this time in space does it matter? My friends enjoy TikTok and Facebook and Twitter and whatever else they use. I do end up being the crazed loser? Is the pool full of piss and I’m in water? Or is it a lemonade pool and I’m full of Powerade piss
Nope. It’s just a convince thing. They aren’t aware what can be done with their data and when they are aware they think “there are millions of people using it so why should MY data be that interesting”
If people are given a choice, they almost always will decline if it’s as convenient as accepting.
I’ve told various people over the years how easy it is to move away from tracking and how valuable their data is. They don’t care. Which makes me thing it’s something else at least in part
The problem is: it’s not easy. It’s easy for you because you’re used to it. Most people are not interested in technology at all.
So maybe start with small things that actually improve the experience. Instead of asking “do you want to get away from trackers” ask “do you never want to see ads in your life ever again”. Then show them how to install an ad blocker.
Don’t try to talk about everything at once. You also don’t try to teach advanced chemistry someone who has absolutely no idea and interest in Chemistry. You have to teach them small steps at a time and make it sound intresting and easy.
And it’s not easy when you tell them “it’s easy. You just have to install this, this and this and have to change your whole habit of using your devices by using a different browser and learn a different client for apps. Oh, and most of them aren’t available on the play store and give a warning when you want to install them.”
You have to make them care about their data, you have to make them care about what you tell them. And that’s the hard part
That’s a very fair assessment and actually answers my questions perfectly.
I completely agree with what you say here, the frustrating part is how much people use technology without wanting to understand it. I don’t know how to code and I’m not saying everyone needs to, we can leave it to the people who actually like doing it.
But it seems like people are intimidated by fairly simple instructions if it’s something even slightly unfamiliar. Given how distraught those same people would be if their tech stopped working I feel like a basic understanding would be a good thing to have. Especially when it’s something they’re using for leisure, like social media.
It’s like, the fact you should put pressure on a wound is generally good knowlege to have, even if you aren’t a doctor. But then again a non negligable percent of adults don’t understand how babies are conceived so maybe I’m being overly optimistic.
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Can you give examples of what being done with my data?
Merchandising!
I mean, it’s far from the worst that can happen, and I use adblock anyway
More like
I think a lot of people have an apathetic outlook towards privacy because they’re cynical that anything they can do will have the desired effect. The belief that they can’t possibly outsmart these data hungry corporations without putting in what they consider to be hard work is enough to sacrifice it.
Right.
Like when I excitedly try to explain the cool way the websites can track you as a user even when you’re incognito 😨
People just have a blank stare, like “what’s incognito”
feelsbadman.jpg
Are they able to track us in incognito using our IP ? Please explain a little to a rookie like me 😀
Incognito doesn’t do much beyond not account for your history.
It’s good if you and your mom use the same computer and you don’t want her browser to auto complete with your porn searches. Not for much else.
It’s usually a number of different data points about your browser like the user agent string that identifies what browser you use and what OS, screen resolution, language settings, timezone, whether or not you use and adblocker etc… and of course IP addresses
One trick a few years ago (that has been patched in all browsers now) was using favicons.
If you ever clicked a link between 2010 and 2021 and noticed that your browser redirected you several times before taking yo to the correct destination, that was a successful attempt at de-anonymizing you.
What was happening was there was a web of redirects. Each location had a different favicons (the little picture in your browser tab that ids the site visually for you). If your browser had been to that destination before, your browser would have the favicon in cache.
if favicon found, send to redirect free A. If redirect not found, send to redirect tree B.
Then repeat the process. With like 35 redirects you’d have enough binary data to uniquely ID every internet connected device ever made.
Wild.
This was fixed in 2021.
This is horrifying. I’ll reset my browser more often, I was already in the habit of doing that
Canvasblocker(randomises all of those little tracking details)/Noscript(outright prevents JS scripts from being able to read those in the first place) combo my beloved
They’re coming for the communists now.
When they come for the trade-unionists and Jews, my neighbors will have long stoned the trail to my door.
And when they come for the rest of my neighborhood, no one will understand how they knew about dinner-table thoughts of dissent or wavering patriotism.
I absolutely agree with this point, but what is this image lmfao
I read a lot of / am highly into cypherpunk ideology. I work hard protect my privacy.
But I also have shitty bottom rung / entry level jobs. ALL of them use apps with atrocious privacy policies for group messaging and posting schedules.
A) I am a cashier. Why do you need to be able to reach me 24/7?
B) It makes all my effort trying to keep a minimal digital footprint moot when I am forced to share tons of personal info to register. And I am also required to get the app.
C) No corporate manager who also hates their job is trying to listen to my diatribe about why “WhatsApp” is evil.
I am seriously considering buying a prepaid flip phone and pretending that’s my “real” phone for my next job. That’s the only solution I can think of. But I just hate that it’s a problem at every $10/ hour job.
I currently have a old samsung that im using as a work phone ive installed lineageOS and its been great so far, i just create burner accounts for anything my work wants me to use
Thanks, I’ll look into that!
I like this meme.
You can upvote on lemmy :)
I like your comment.
You can upvote comments on lemmy. :)
I like your profile
You can block on lemmy :)
Nah, blocking is evil. I do t wanna be evil, like most people here.
I agree so much, I got my own vpn on a private vps just to I can make sure there is no logging happening, so that I can live happy knowing that my data isn’t being sold and my webteam workmates were like “What? Why? Have you got anything to hide?”. No I don’t I just don’t want anything to listen in hugh…
Ask them if they’d go nude in public, to prove that they have nothing hidden under their clothes, or if they’d let their parents/the authorities see their porn collection, to make sure it’s all legal and above board. Then pivot the conversation to the dignity of not being surveilled constant just in case you might be doing something wrong, with zero suspicion.
Those are really good responses.
But isn’t that way worse in terms of privacy? Your IP stays the same, and if a request for your IP is made it is instantly your clear name. Also you traded your ISP for another ISP, what is the advantage?
Well although it is true that my IP is always the same to the vpn, I make sure there is no logging happening since the vps is setup completely from scratch with wireguard on OpenBSD. A bigger plus for me is that the VPS is in another country rather than the UK since I don’t like the way ISPs here in England sell your information. I also have another VPS for interacting with work servers which only allow whitelisted IPs and my home IP is dynamic.
I hope you don’t mind me asking, but isn’t the point of no logging with VPNs that if there’s a request for the user doing a network request not being able to answer because it wasn’t stored? With your VPS it’s your derver, so the request wouldn’t even be made because it’s obvious its network requests are yours
The yellow piss matches my purple swimsuit more though, so I know which I’m picking
objective aesthetics above any arbitrary standards derived of social foolishness any day
Inconveniencing yourself because you’re terrified of Facebook knowing your phone model lol
Letting corporations brain wash you because you like using their app lol
What are you terrified of? Being a statistic?
If you don’t mind such things one bit, would you mind sharing with all of here all of the following:
- your physical address (preferably in the format that would let anyone of us send you whatever we desire)
- your age
- your full legal name
- your phone number that you use most often
- your school
- your work (its address, your title, company, etc)
- your income
- your expenses
- the stores you go to and what for, also when and how often
- your hometown
- your pet names
- your mother’s maiden name
- your bank of choice
- what tech you own in detail
- your schedule
- your search history
- your browser bookmarks
And many other things, too. Somehow I doubt you’d ever do that, but you’re fine trusting this kind of data to be handed away to many corporations for absolutely no benefit on your end. They’ll just sell it for cash money, only to be bought by con-artsists to try and scam you out of something later.
I mean being a contempt consumer is one thing, but defending some entities hoarding more data about you than your entire family knows is just delusional. Especially given the fact that you are most likely more careful with your data in other circumstances, like talking to strangers or using the Internet for at least some things, but then you defend careless and irresponsible handling of your data when it comes to what, mobile apps?
You should really learn more on the topic.
Let’s not forget: everything you say. Phones have microphones.
And cameras.
How many people are dumbfounded or completely unaware when amazon or facebook show you an ad about something you were talking about earlier…
This is where you lose people. It’s been proven time and time again that the mics on your phones aren’t transmitting things back without you knowing about it.
Facebook isn’t always listening in on your conversations. They don’t need to. It’s useless data.
Voice isn’t how they figure out what you like and are probably talking about at any given moment with other people.
Here’s a short podcast episode that gets the point across: https://gimletmedia.com/amp/shows/reply-all/z3hlwr
You could literally physically destroy the microphone of your phone, and you’ll still get ads served up like “they are listening to you”
Not entirely true. Clearly they aren’t listening all the time, but I doubt they’re collecting that voice data for no reason.
You act like it’s impossible which really comes off as desperation for it to be true. Definitely not impossible
If they could access those indiscriminately you could guaran-fucking-tee people would start taking it seriously.
/tinfoil hat
That’s why they don’t list those things in your app permissions unless it expressly “uses it”
Zuckerborg probably watches people pee all the time.
It’s not imposibile, it’s unlikely, and would be noticeable.
Dunno how app permissions prove that they are always listening when those permissions are required to access the mic at any point in time, including when you’re using the app and invoke it yourself.
If you were a faceless algorithm yhea I wouldn’t mind, I’m giving my address and information to plenty of companies I get services from. Those false equivalences are why people don’t take you seriously.
Are you seriously this delusional? There is no “faceless algorithm”, they can pull your profile at any time and give it to the highest bidder.
Wait, you actually think they sell single profiles? Go buy some tinfoil, the lizard people may come for you with all that Google data
It’s usually not a “Hey, we give you a profile for $2”.
It’s more like "Oh, you, political party XY want to show advertisment to 2000 people? No problem… We helped you filter the perfect people… There you go, 2000 low-educated, mid-20 users who were classified as easy to manipulate by our algorithms. Bonus: They are having a hard time now and are classified are ‘probably depression’ (lost children or parents or their home, …), so they are even easier to target at the moment. We will show them your propaganda for just $xxxx "
That’s how they make money.
The faceless algorithm stores the the data in a database. From this point on, people with faces can access them.
I am a software developer. If I’d create a faceless form that stores the data somewhere for me, would you enter them?
If you were a faceless algorithm
There are people behind algorithms. They don’t exist for the sole purpose of gathering the data for the sake of it - the data is later accessed and processed by people.
I’m giving my address and information to plenty of companies I get services from.
And how is that different from giving any of information to me? I’m just trying to gather some statistics here, nothing more.
Those false equivalences are why people don’t take you seriously.
Is this why Zuckerberg went to trial and the EU is preventing apps and services whose sole purpose is to hoover up some data about you to become available in its domain?
Kinda?
https://www.vice.com/en/article/y3g97x/location-data-apps-drone-strikes-iowa-national-guard
I’m also afraid of corporations teaming up with governments and using their extremely comprehensive data sets to influence public opinion.
I’m also afraid of the fact that many people no longer care about privacy, and might not care if the government tries to implement dystopian systems like those seen in China, as long as it “keeps them safe”.
Do you tell every person you meet on the street where you live and what your phone number is?
If not, why tell Mark Zuckerberg?
Because I’m getting a service in exchange while losing nothing of value. Why are you giving your address at the post office? Your name to the bank teller?
Same reason
So you’re not gonna respond to any other part of my comment?
I understand you might not care about my last point, not many people do, but the first three are much more important.
You think the government, the entity that already controls all of your data and can sway public opinion by simply “teaming up” with ms media already, needs Facebook data to ruin your country?
If you are afraid of corrupt governments you might aswell go live in the woods.
I’m not talking about my government, I’m talking about foreign ones.
Edit: also, where do you think your government gets all this information from?
You don’t need to give Facebook information about your relationship with your friends and family members, your home address and location all the time. Just look at the information it collects from the iOS appstore, most of those data points aren’t needed to provide you the service at all. Its like giving the post office the list of people you have been in a relationship with just because they ask for it.
The service is free BECAUSE of it, it’s a trade
nah its just I dont have one
guys stop downvoting some of us like to piss ourselves in the pool and we should be free to do so at our leisure
