I’ve tried to search for opinions on what’s going on in Ukraine, but most posts are incredibly old. I’m not too educated on the matter myself (well, aside from keeping up most of the time with what cities are under whose control and all of that). I haven’t really heard much about the geopolitical side of things, and it’s hard to know what’s disinfo or not; That’s why I’d like to ask: What is your stance on the Ukraine war?
the end of the USSR was a disaster
If you downvote this comment and you aren’t a lib, why are you in this community.
Russia is currently fighting a war is with a client regime that US installed in Ukraine after overthrowing the democratically elected government in 2014. I generally agree with the reasoning for why Russia decided to start a preventative the war that Mearsheimer gives here.
While Russia has a reactionary capitalist regime, it is acting as a bulwark fighting against US global hegemony right now. NATO has been forced to devote practically all of its resources to the proxy war and this created room for the Global South to finally start shaking off western hegemony. We are seeing a major global realignment happening with countries moving off the dollar and BRICS rapidly expanding.
The war has also derailed US plans for containment of China, and it’s clear that China is taking advantage of the additional time that Russia bought it. I expect that by the end of the war we will likely see the reverse moment of when USSR collapsed, and US led capitalist world order became dominant. This time around, it will be the capitalist order that crashes, and it will be replaced by socialist one led by China.
I take China’s stance: please let’s fucking talk this over because we’re only doing more harm right now
But for this war to end Ukraine has to stop being outright nazis in service of imperialism. We need organizing of armed dissidence inside Ukraine. We need conscripted soldiers fragging their imperialist commanders stat
Talking things over can only happen if russia leaves ukraine entirely(doubt it). Else they wil use the time to dig in deeper. It is also hard to communicate with the kremlin because the try to poison you and ther word is worth nothing.
And how is the country being invaded the nazi imperialist?
USA is the imperialist. You are the imperialist apologist.
Do I support innocent civilians dying or workers being sent to fight and getting killed? No. Do I support stamping out of Nazis? Yes. Russia has a right to security guarantees on its border which the west has continually undermined for the last 30 years. Ukraine is being use as pawn to destroy Russia and Russia made the ugly decision of striking back. I welcome the downfall of NATO.
I welcome the downfall of NATO.
Considering Russia’s invasion has directly lead to the doubling of NATO’s border with Russia (via Finland joining), the soon to be member Sweden, as well as many NATO countries spending more on defense, I fail to see how Russia’s invasion has done anything but strengthen NATO.
You think countries like Sweden taking money away from public services and funneling them into corrupt and bloated private military-industrial corporations makes them “stronger”?
I welcome the downfall of russia and there inflated self worth. If you dont support innocent people getting killed, dont support an invading country.
Russias security guaranties on ther borders are bullshit, when its them who is actively trying to keep all the regions unstable.
But fuck the people of the Donbas being shelled endlessly and starved for the better part of a decade by the Ukrainians amiright.
The unrest in donbass started when russia send its undercover army there in 2014. Without russias agression there would not have been a frontline.
Donbass wasnt shelled endlessly by ukranians, this is just wrong.
USA sent an undercover army in 2014, not russia.
Always projection.
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That ukraine is full off nazis is a made up reason, by the russian federation, for an unjustified attack on the people of the beautiful country of ukraine.
The army of donbass was never ordinary. It was from 2014 filled with russians, who even shot down a passenger plane.
Russia is deliberitly shooting at public infrastructure, they are obviously the agressor and therfor the Nazis in this story.
I dont think you understand the conflict and what is really going on in ukraine.
Nazis are more than a villain in the Captain America movies buddy. They actually exist, in the real world even, and aren’t just a meaningless buzzword.
Sorry to tell you this, but smugness is not actually more important than education. I suggest you try doing a bit of the latter, instead of relying solely on the former. But who am I kidding? You’d dismiss everyone here as “nazi tankies” or something and smugly smug about your day supporting western imperialism because they’re the “good guys” in the movies.
And fuck marvel, never seen one movie of em
Please send me some of your finest youtube videos. Please educate me.
I realy dont think you have any clue what you are talking about.
So here is a photo of me in kyiv before the war.
Here’s a good one for you:
Hmmm that’s an interesting take. I had never seen the conflict from that angle actually.
I think they should have focused more on the economical aspect of the war, but still it was eye opening for me when they said “Arf arf arf arf arf arf!”
That type of crap might fool redditors, but you’re gonna have to try a lot harder here. And yes, Ukraine is filled with nazis to the brim. Courtesy of the US.
Please watch the vice documemtry series on crimea and maidan, and tell me wich of those people are the nazis.
Ukraine definitely has some ultra nationalists/nazis but how can you blame them when the have one of the most brutal histories of any country. I blame this on a lack of education, and hope this will inprove eventually.
The majority of ukraine is against nazis, for freedom of speech and for al the democratic values, and they have come a long way since 2014. But it is a proces.
It matters not what the Majority of Ukrainians are, its what the majority of the Armed forces and government are that causes this problem. Its all fine and dandy if majority of Ukrainians aren’t Nazis, but what matters is that their army is absolutely infested with them, and no sane nation will sit idle while a Nazi infested army murders people who speak your language and is vehemently hostile towards you.
“and no sane nation will sit idle while a Nazi infested army murders people who speak your language and is vehemently hostile towards you.”
Excactly and thats why we all group up against russia and its nazi group (wagner).
Ukraine just like poland have a weird hisory in the sense that the were right inbetween nazi germany, en russia both of them slaughtering ukranians. Some sided with russians against nazis en some with nazis against russians. This makes it so much more complex tan you make it up to be.
What a way to tell us you know exactly nothing about recent history except what some western TV told you.
War is a rich man’s game, and this one is no different.
Putin is a reactionary, that isn’t in question. He’s not going to bring any benefit to the workers of Russia. The only reason he’s popular is because he brought stability after the Soviet Union was taken out behind the barn. After that happened, they had Yeltsin, a drunk, incompetent disaster of a person and a politician. Putin’s a far better alternative.
He started this war to protect the interests of Russia as a political entity, which does not include Russian workers. NATO has been aggressive towards Russia because the United States’ empire has no tolerance for anyone not playing ball with them, even if they’re capitalists themselves. This war has nothing to do with denazifying Ukraine (more on that in a moment), it’s entirely about preserving the interests of Russian national capital.
On the end of Ukraine we have Zelenskiy, who is all too happy to throw Ukrainian men into the meatgrinder to get in good with NATO and other liberal alliances. Ukraine has a history of radical nationalism (and by proxy naziism, given the proclivities of many “national heroes” of the country to be bedfellows with the NSDAP and related people/orgs) which provides a good reason for Putin to start this mess.
Make no mistake, this war is the same as any other: a way for powerful, rich men to play chess with real human lives to boost their ego and their buddies’ interests. There is no benefit for any working person to be found in the war itself or in the victory of either side.
Yes, there are nazis in Ukraine. No, this does not justify slaughtering tons of working class lives (most of whom are not even nazi-adjacent).
Being anti-war is the only stance one should take. No war but class war.
I woudlnt say Zelenskiy is happy to throw Ukrainian men into the meatgrinder. It is about saving their country.
Joining Nato is al about saving ukranians.
Here is an article about it from ProleWiki, which is associated with Lemmygrad and has some of the same admins.
USA is controlling ukraine’s government. They want to kill as many ukrainians and russians as possible. They must be stopped. Also, boris johnson prevented peace talks. To hell with him.
What are you smoking?
You are smoking projection
I’d point out that Ukrainians and Ukrainian government aren’t Nazis, but they did have a paramilitary wing that is very much Nazi-inclined.
Still, that wasn’t the reason for the invasion.
The entire conflict is that ugly battle between West and East, one in which West generally has an upper hand, but Russia as a more East-inclined force has a very strong interest.
Neither of the sides care of actual people on the ground, only of their superiority. And the Ukrainian government wants to remain in power, which is why they don’t really try to regulate the situation either.
I too back China here - let’s stop the hot war and take some time to figure it out. Yes, Russia will most likely have some territorial gains, but losing already-unstable Donbass that tried to join Russia for years is a small price to pay to stop the enormous bloodshed no civilian is interested in.
After that, the rest of Ukraine can get the protection of NATO to avoid the repeat of this scenario.
there was this story i read a long time ago about an american soldier in iraq, talking to an iraqi interpreter who is smoking a cigarette, the american asks him why they were fighting each other (iraq and kuwait) despite them looking the same, dressing the same and, speaking the same language.
so the interpreter takes a long drag of his cigarette, (something along of the lines of) “they’ll keep killing each other until they get tired of it and go home.”
i may have gotten the countries wrong, but I know I got the general main line of the story remembered.
I’m new to lemmygrad, but i think that the general principle of Marxists Leninist is to liberate the working class. Then I think everything else breaks into strategies and etc which of course people have different stances on like moves in chess
some liberals feel putin is to blame, some people say nato expansion, and some lads are saying the 2009 recession was never properly dealt with - that we are now facing the contradictions of capitalism in the form of war.
at the end of it all, the war sucks and most likely foretelling of more conflicts (and subsequently more suffering)to come. (regardless the way the media wants to frame the war, it is the people who suffer)
In what world is putin not to blame, didnt he order his troop to attack ukraine?
hi, you are correct in an interpretation - my understanding is that the way marxists tend to analyse subjects is through how the broader system in general functions.
Trying to think of an example i probably would say something like, the story of the scorpion and the frog, while some would interpret that the fault of the drowning of the pair was due to the venom in the scorpion’s stinger or the individual scorpion.
mean while the marxist would interpret that it was in the inherent nature of the scorpian to doom them, and from their interactions at the beginning of the conversation the dominos began to fall. the last domino in the chain being the perishing of both. (or you could go even further and say new life would spawn from the remains)
Norhing is forever, nobody is here with a reason, we are all going to die.
But ukraine is not comparable to the helpless stupid frog in this story. They know about his nature to doom.
i think we are at a misunderstanding, the story of the frog and the scorpion was not a interpretation of the ukraine war, but an attempt of how marxists analyse systems that spawn results such as wars.
it was to help be an abstract explanation of a way of thinking, and not suppose to be a 1 to 1 representation of the war.
But how does this way of thinking lead to supporting hitler(putin)?
Im not saing you do, but this seems to be the trend here.
The first gulf war is an interesting thing to look at. Saddamn told the US state department he would invade Kuait because they were cross drilling into Iraqi oil fields and we’re traditionally a ‘part of Iraq’.
State department said we don’t care
Of course, they did care and used that as cassus belli to attack Iraq and ‘contain’ Saddam which was the original intended consequence.
The war in Ukraine is the same. The neocons in the US have wanted Ukraine to open it’s markets to blackrock and Goldman Sachs forever. They helped foment the coup and selected Ukrainians president. They knew Russia would invade if Ukraine started the process to join NATO.
The US wanted this war. It was a trap for Putin and because he is an idiot he fell for it. The goal is to weaken Russia , sell us LNG to Germany at 200% markup and flood Lockheed and Raytheon with billions of dollars. It’s a win win for the US because no American boots on the ground they get to fight Russia via proxy until the last Ukrainian.
I’m totally against the war and old enough to understand the only way it ends is with a negotiated settlement.
It was a trap for Putin and because he is an idiot he fell for it.
You should read less NYT.
“Damned if you do damned if you don’t” is not a “trap.” Being lied to over and over is not a “trap.” Putin was backed into a corner. He didn’t want to fight but in the end it was either fight or let nazis and NATO live on Russia border and genocide Russian speaking civilians until they were ready to invade Russia itself.
If Putin is “an idiot” how did he manage to insulate Russia’s entire economy from sanctions? He spent the whole time he was trying to avoid the fight also making contingencies for when the fight happened.
The war is hollowing out the EU. They have lost access to cheap Russian energy and so their manufacturing capability is being gutted. All they have left is their Financial capital and without industry to back it up it will disappear before they can rectify their energy situation. European companies are already moving to China.
While the MIC is gaining short term profits from the war overall it will be a major loss. Furthermore the war has shown the global south the need for an alternative to $US. BRICS+ will be direct competition for american dollar hegemony destroying its value. Any $ gains the MIC makes it will have to pay back ten fold to the global south who they traditionary exploited for raw materials. The global south will have alternative buyers that will give them fairer prices in $ which will cause $ to lose more value. On top of all that it has shown how flawed NATO weapon systems really are, how they fare against much cheaper weapons from Russia, and how slowly they are produced. Any nation looking at purchasing weapons supplies is going to consider Russia because they are better value for money by factors of 2 digits and they wont have decades long wait lists.
The material reality of things on the ground in the war and in economies of the nations involved is completely contrary to your post.
I agree with a lot of your points, it was a ‘fucked if you do fucked if you don’t’ situation for Putin and actually I’m not even sure about the Great Man theory of history so even if someone else was leading Russia they would probably still have responded the same way. I don’t know, it still feels like a trap though. And of course the dialectical analysis shows that by cutting Russia off the swift system the BRICS economic integration just intensifies and accelerates de-dollarisation.
But I stand by my comment about Putin being stupid. Calling it a police action without stating exact goals means he’s already lost the information war. There also is no way to win this war unless he goes shock and awe and literally destroys the entire country. Which is not the goal. So the Russian military cant destroy everything to force a solution, and the US is loving it, just pouring infinite money, tanks, jets, climbing the escalation ladder. They intend to outspend Russia and force a domestic coup. Which also won’t happen.
So it’s a lose lose for everyone except the military industrial complex, Goldman Sachs and US LNG exporters
But I stand by my comment about Putin being stupid. Calling it a police action without stating exact goals means he’s already lost the information war.
But he didn’t do that. Putin said exactly what the SMO was supposed to do. Putin has some serious flaws but being stupid isn’t one of them. Stop reading the NYT. “because x is stupid/incompetent/insane/evil” is the weakest analysis you can do. It is almost never true and just shows that you don’t understand the situation. It’s marvel movie level thinking.
The stated aims of the SMO are Defence of the Donbas separatist states, Demilitarization, Denazification, and forcing Ukraine to stay neutral. Since Ukraine and the west proved they are pathological liars Russia’s game plan changed a little and now they have incorporated the break away states into Russia proper but the other goals have stayed the same.
Ukraine’s army will eventually collapse. They can’t stand up against Russia forever. They cant recruit soldiers fast enough, The west cant manufacture weapons fast enough and even if they could they wouldn’t want to give them away to a failed state. When that happens all that remains is tearing down some nazi monuments and installing a puppet government.
Again the MIC and LNG exporters win is a short lived boost that will ultimately accelerate their own downfall. Their wins are at the cost of their allies. USA are cannibalizing Europe to prop themselves up. This is only a win if you don’t look past the immediate future.
The stated aims of the SMO are … Denazification
Putin returned the Azov battalion leaders and fighters to Ukraine in a prisoner swap. If Azov are Nazis, as is commonly stated, Putin is doing a very, very poor job at denazification in Ukraine.
What was he supposed to do? Let Russian POWs be shot and tortured while azov nazis get treated like humans?
The plan isn’t to hunt down and kill every nazi. Its to make a society where nazism is strongly discouraged. When Ukraine surrenders there will be prison sentences for nazis in Ukraine like there are in Russia.
Eu is doing fine, russia is soon to fall appart.
Lol you live in copeistan
https://lemmygrad.ml/post/687025
You can check out this post from about a month ago with a lot of good analysis and discussion in the comments.
The main enemy is at home. Not our war. Should be ended asap if possible at all. Funding the arms monopolists creates incentives for war and is historically much of the base for fascism, not a way to peace.
But it also offers some much needed breathing room for the global south by depleting Western imperialism militarily, economically, politically and financially. The weakening of the dollar system being the most important development in this (imo).
Think that sums it up for me at least.
It is the rubble who has taken the biggest hit. Russia and their inflated sense of selfworth has never had an economie larger then Italy.
well, most people here support Russia and Z.
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most people here are able to think critically, yes
and most people shouldn’t be downvoting me for saying that they support Russia and Z (which they do)
You have a history of bad takes on this topic so people probably thought you are being snarky or something.
As long as the US continues to exist in the form it’s in, it will either be at war or in a proxy war and people will be dying.
Big picture is, if Russia and Ukraine make peace, the US will start a new war somewhere else by invasion or proxy immediately afterwards.
So I’m not 100% on board with the sentiment that the war must end at any cost. We don’t get peace if the war ends if it means the US will just kick off another one.
War is bad. But any scenario that diminishes US hegemony and its ability to wage war (whether that’s in a peace treaty or in ongiong conflict) is preferable, because we’ll never have peace in this world while those warmongers in DC are allowed to continue.
While i agree with alot of what you say, this war is not centered around the USA. And would still have happened with or without it.
These warmongers are in the kremlin
