Halt all animal testing and put 100% of those freed up resources towards developing lab grown organs and tissues. If we want to study heart disease we should be growing human hearts and testing them, not using a “good enough” animal model. It could be the next big leap, like the Human Genome Project was.
I did my undergrad in toxicology which is all I can speak about with any sort of knowledge. What you described is more like what my professors actually did when they told us about studies they have done. They try to use the fewest amount of live specimens possible. They start on a computer (in-silico), then they move onto cultured himan cells (in-vitro), then onto animals (in-vivo). Pharmacology will move onto human testing but toxicology doesn’t. Pathogens don’t selectively choose to damage a heart or liver, they have an effect on the whole body.
The reason why it’s done this way is because toxicology is playing catch up to industry. There are more compounds being produced than researchers have time to examine. It would be nice if a company had to prove that it’s new chemical is safe but unfortunately that type of legislation will never pass in the west. Would you be willing to be dosed with BPA or PFAS to determine if it causes cancer in place of an animal? Without clear evidence that it was companies would still be making water bottles with BPA. You might be tempted to say just look at population data but it’s just not that simple.
In so far as toxicology research is concerned, animals are needed. It would be great if companies would stop removed poisoning the environment and us but unless we have undeniable prove to shove right into their ugly faces that what they’re doing is hurtful, they won’t stop. Right now the only way to do that without causing a ton of human suffering is to test on animals.
Tons of work is being done to reduce the numbers of animals that are tested on and new AI models are really taking off. Eventually though a living thing needs to be subjected to it to ensure our simulations aren’t just removed.
Okay, so the problem is that industry is allowed to move faster than toxicology. That seems extremely stupid.
As for in-vivo testing, the goal should be to eliminate the need for animals and move towards a holistic lab grown testing environment of cloned organs, circulatory systems, body parts, etc. That’s a bit beyond what we can do, which is why we should devote everything we have to making it happen. Like I said, the next Human Genome Project.
Oh I absolutely agree that it is extremely stupid that industry is allowed to move faster than what toxicologist can research. It makes me very angry but if I start telling people this I just get called a leftist nut. Everyone assumes that someone is making sure they’re safe. Well I sat in those people’s classes for six years and they do not get enough funding to live up to the publics expectation. Part of me thinks that’s by design, because poorly funded toxicology research is big businesess’ wet dream.
Regardless of how much you and I might want it to be different that’s not how it is right now and there are problems that need to be solved right now. It’s not an either, or, that’s a false dichotomy. Abandoning current toxicology research in order to prioritize advancing research methods means that until those research methods have matured, industry would have an opportunity to go without scrutiny. It’s bad enough nowadays when there is barely enough funding to pay attention, imagine a decade where no one is paying attention to the new things industry comes up with while those methods are developed.
I don’t like animal testing, none of my professors did either. Who do you think taught me to respect and understand why we test on animals. Some of them were doing research into new methods like you described, others were testing new chemicals with established methods. It isn’t a dichotomy, at least in-so-far-as toxicology research is concerned. I don’t have any experience in pharmacology or cosmetics.
This is a problem that needs to be solved right now, or as soon as possible.
As for letting businesses run rampant without testing or scrutiny, who says they’d be allowed to do new things? We don’t have to let them do whatever they want. Just put a pause on introducing new potentially toxic shit into our water and food and air etc.
But that would hurt the money’s feelings, so it won’t happen. Obviously.
If it were only as easy as flipping a switch. I wish I could be as idealistic as you are right now, I used to be. Part of my journey fighting injustice how I think I best can has been to learn how to hold my idealisms hand and let that lead me. Rather than listen to it’s endless screaming. If I didn’t I would have burnt out long ago.
I guess I just want you to understand that the people I’m speaking for, most of my former professors and my colleagues, share your concerns and are trying. They’re trying to stop testing on animals, they’re trying to stop industry from running ahead of them, they’re trying to protect the environment just as much as humans.
There is so much working against my professors from developing it, to myself and my colleagues trying to enforce the regulations proposed. In this system we need funding and government support to do any of that which we just don’t have. The only ones with enough money to do that are the ones who have the most to lose from us doing our jobs. So it just doesn’t happen.
As for in-vivo testing, the goal should be to eliminate the need for animals and move towards a holistic lab grown testing environment of cloned organs, circulatory systems, body parts, etc. That’s a bit beyond what we can do, which is why we should devote everything we have to making it happen. Like I said, the next Human Genome Project.
This idea is how you end up with manmade horrors beyond my comprehension. Cloning an organ or two is one thing, but a whole body? That’s asking for trouble.
I figured it was pretty clear I wasn’t talking about entire human clones? It’d all be piecemeal, different cloned systems would be used as testing environments. There’d never be a whole human clone involved, that’s just creating an entirely new set of ethical problems.
You couldn’t just clone a single organ. You would have to clone basically all of them to know for certain, including the brain. Having them be separate isn’t any better, it could actually be worse. You’re trying to do things we not only don’t have the technology for, but would be very morally questionable.
Testing on animals is morally questionable! Although I’m talking about cloning full systems, so they could still all be kept separate rather than just being a whole cloned body. You’d have one model that’s a clone of the entire digestive system, another that’s a clone of the nervous system, another that’s a clone of the circulatory system, and they’d be connected or disconnected from each other as needed.
Also, yeah, I’m very aware this isn’t something we can do yet! That’s why I called it the next Human Genome project.
Animal testing, beyond just being wrong, is a crutch and it’s holding us back.
The problem with testing on organs or tissues is that you won’t be able to see side-effects that affect unrelated organs. Maybe a stroke medicine increases the risk of internal bleeding or heart failure. Currently, medicines are tested on human tissue (HeLa lines - there’s another sad story behind them, but I digress), and, if they pass, on mice. Only once they pass both are they even tested on humans.
What stops them from testing on unrelated organs? If you want to know if a stroke medicine increases the risk of heart failure, test it on heart tissue. If you want to know if it increases the risk of internal bleeding, grow gastrointestinal tract and blood vessels to test it.
That’s not enough. The medicine may contain chemical A, which is broken down into B and C by the digestive system. B breaks up blood clots in the brain, but the liver converts it into D, which causes internal bleeding. Also C can damage the heart, but only if you are old.
Testing A on any tissue will not show any benefit to reducing clotting. Conversely, testing B on brain, liver and blood vessel samples will not show any risk, because it needs to first go through the liver and then reach blood vessels. And finally, unless you have an animal with a short lifespan (such as a mouse), you won’t see the effects on infants, the old, pregnant females, etc.
And we couldn’t construct a holistic cloned testing environment that can break A down into B and C and D, and then observe the effects? So you aren’t just testing it on isolated tissue samples, but on entire cloned systems with all of the interactions of an actual human body?
That’s not something possible at the moment, I understand that. I just think it would be better to focus all of our efforts on making it possible.
Halt all animal testing and put 100% of those freed up resources towards developing lab grown organs and tissues. If we want to study heart disease we should be growing human hearts and testing them, not using a “good enough” animal model. It could be the next big leap, like the Human Genome Project was.
I did my undergrad in toxicology which is all I can speak about with any sort of knowledge. What you described is more like what my professors actually did when they told us about studies they have done. They try to use the fewest amount of live specimens possible. They start on a computer (in-silico), then they move onto cultured himan cells (in-vitro), then onto animals (in-vivo). Pharmacology will move onto human testing but toxicology doesn’t. Pathogens don’t selectively choose to damage a heart or liver, they have an effect on the whole body.
The reason why it’s done this way is because toxicology is playing catch up to industry. There are more compounds being produced than researchers have time to examine. It would be nice if a company had to prove that it’s new chemical is safe but unfortunately that type of legislation will never pass in the west. Would you be willing to be dosed with BPA or PFAS to determine if it causes cancer in place of an animal? Without clear evidence that it was companies would still be making water bottles with BPA. You might be tempted to say just look at population data but it’s just not that simple.
In so far as toxicology research is concerned, animals are needed. It would be great if companies would stop removed poisoning the environment and us but unless we have undeniable prove to shove right into their ugly faces that what they’re doing is hurtful, they won’t stop. Right now the only way to do that without causing a ton of human suffering is to test on animals.
Tons of work is being done to reduce the numbers of animals that are tested on and new AI models are really taking off. Eventually though a living thing needs to be subjected to it to ensure our simulations aren’t just removed.
Okay, so the problem is that industry is allowed to move faster than toxicology. That seems extremely stupid.
As for in-vivo testing, the goal should be to eliminate the need for animals and move towards a holistic lab grown testing environment of cloned organs, circulatory systems, body parts, etc. That’s a bit beyond what we can do, which is why we should devote everything we have to making it happen. Like I said, the next Human Genome Project.
Oh I absolutely agree that it is extremely stupid that industry is allowed to move faster than what toxicologist can research. It makes me very angry but if I start telling people this I just get called a leftist nut. Everyone assumes that someone is making sure they’re safe. Well I sat in those people’s classes for six years and they do not get enough funding to live up to the publics expectation. Part of me thinks that’s by design, because poorly funded toxicology research is big businesess’ wet dream.
Regardless of how much you and I might want it to be different that’s not how it is right now and there are problems that need to be solved right now. It’s not an either, or, that’s a false dichotomy. Abandoning current toxicology research in order to prioritize advancing research methods means that until those research methods have matured, industry would have an opportunity to go without scrutiny. It’s bad enough nowadays when there is barely enough funding to pay attention, imagine a decade where no one is paying attention to the new things industry comes up with while those methods are developed.
I don’t like animal testing, none of my professors did either. Who do you think taught me to respect and understand why we test on animals. Some of them were doing research into new methods like you described, others were testing new chemicals with established methods. It isn’t a dichotomy, at least in-so-far-as toxicology research is concerned. I don’t have any experience in pharmacology or cosmetics.
This is a problem that needs to be solved right now, or as soon as possible.
As for letting businesses run rampant without testing or scrutiny, who says they’d be allowed to do new things? We don’t have to let them do whatever they want. Just put a pause on introducing new potentially toxic shit into our water and food and air etc.
But that would hurt the money’s feelings, so it won’t happen. Obviously.
If it were only as easy as flipping a switch. I wish I could be as idealistic as you are right now, I used to be. Part of my journey fighting injustice how I think I best can has been to learn how to hold my idealisms hand and let that lead me. Rather than listen to it’s endless screaming. If I didn’t I would have burnt out long ago.
I guess I just want you to understand that the people I’m speaking for, most of my former professors and my colleagues, share your concerns and are trying. They’re trying to stop testing on animals, they’re trying to stop industry from running ahead of them, they’re trying to protect the environment just as much as humans.
There is so much working against my professors from developing it, to myself and my colleagues trying to enforce the regulations proposed. In this system we need funding and government support to do any of that which we just don’t have. The only ones with enough money to do that are the ones who have the most to lose from us doing our jobs. So it just doesn’t happen.
It’s important to keep the true ideal end goal in view when working on incremental shifts towards it.
This idea is how you end up with manmade horrors beyond my comprehension. Cloning an organ or two is one thing, but a whole body? That’s asking for trouble.
I figured it was pretty clear I wasn’t talking about entire human clones? It’d all be piecemeal, different cloned systems would be used as testing environments. There’d never be a whole human clone involved, that’s just creating an entirely new set of ethical problems.
You couldn’t just clone a single organ. You would have to clone basically all of them to know for certain, including the brain. Having them be separate isn’t any better, it could actually be worse. You’re trying to do things we not only don’t have the technology for, but would be very morally questionable.
Testing on animals is morally questionable! Although I’m talking about cloning full systems, so they could still all be kept separate rather than just being a whole cloned body. You’d have one model that’s a clone of the entire digestive system, another that’s a clone of the nervous system, another that’s a clone of the circulatory system, and they’d be connected or disconnected from each other as needed.
Also, yeah, I’m very aware this isn’t something we can do yet! That’s why I called it the next Human Genome project.
Animal testing, beyond just being wrong, is a crutch and it’s holding us back.
The problem with testing on organs or tissues is that you won’t be able to see side-effects that affect unrelated organs. Maybe a stroke medicine increases the risk of internal bleeding or heart failure. Currently, medicines are tested on human tissue (HeLa lines - there’s another sad story behind them, but I digress), and, if they pass, on mice. Only once they pass both are they even tested on humans.
What stops them from testing on unrelated organs? If you want to know if a stroke medicine increases the risk of heart failure, test it on heart tissue. If you want to know if it increases the risk of internal bleeding, grow gastrointestinal tract and blood vessels to test it.
That’s not enough. The medicine may contain chemical A, which is broken down into B and C by the digestive system. B breaks up blood clots in the brain, but the liver converts it into D, which causes internal bleeding. Also C can damage the heart, but only if you are old.
Testing A on any tissue will not show any benefit to reducing clotting. Conversely, testing B on brain, liver and blood vessel samples will not show any risk, because it needs to first go through the liver and then reach blood vessels. And finally, unless you have an animal with a short lifespan (such as a mouse), you won’t see the effects on infants, the old, pregnant females, etc.
And we couldn’t construct a holistic cloned testing environment that can break A down into B and C and D, and then observe the effects? So you aren’t just testing it on isolated tissue samples, but on entire cloned systems with all of the interactions of an actual human body?
That’s not something possible at the moment, I understand that. I just think it would be better to focus all of our efforts on making it possible.
I’ve seen how this turns out.