• lennybird@lemmy.world
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    8 months ago
    1. It’s a waste of time — Especially in an election year with so much on the line and post-primaries — to criticize Biden and instead better to criticize the groups who continue to support Israel. When the polls shift, the administration will shift… As has already occurred.

    2. I don’t give a fuck if you do, so long as you vote and support Biden in November. Palestinians and Ukrainians are counting on us, and the guaranteed-alternative is significantly-worse. I just had some other fool tell me they’re voting 3rd-party, so they are clearly supporting the enemies. I hope you’re smarter.

    • dumpsterlid@lemmy.world
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      8 months ago

      It’s a waste of time — Especially in an election year with so much on the line and post-primaries — to criticize Biden and instead better to criticize the groups who continue to support Israel. When the polls shift, the administration will shift… As has already occurred.

      It is clear as day that the only thing actually making Biden think twice about unconditionally supporting the mass slaughter of Palestinians is that he might actually lose the election because his opinions are so unpopular and brutal on the Palestinian genocide.

      Right now is THE TIME to grind everything about the Democratic Party to a halt until Biden gets the message that halting the supply of weapons to an ongoing genocide is a non-negotiable aspect of getting leftist (and muslim) voters. He doesn’t give a shit though that much is clear, once the election is over if he wins than all the pressure to actually do anything other than say empty words goes away.

      • lennybird@lemmy.world
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        8 months ago

        As I’ve repeatedly pointed out, the problem is this can only go so far before it works against him. All Democrats are doing is splitting his attention between two groups — and if he pivots too much to one side, he risks alienating an arguably even LARGER group of voters.

        So as I said, the best bet is to focus not on finger-wagging to Biden, but finger-wagging to the actual Pro-Israelis and undecided (who are 1/3 of the electorate). Thus if you want to continue influencing Biden, continue influencing the polls themselves and Biden will reflect that.

        He doesn’t give a shit though that much is clear, once the election is over if he wins than all the pressure to actually do anything other than say empty words goes away.

        I think it’s just the opposite. I think similar to the Afghan withdrawal once an election has passed he will take a very Anti-Israeli stance while amplifying his support for Ukraine as well.

    • olivebranch@lemmy.ca
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      8 months ago
      1. They don’t shift policies, they shift marketing. They will continue to support Israel because they are treating you with Trump and you have to vote for them whatever they do. So change is never going to happen.
      2. Either vote third party or don’t waste your time voting. You are getting nothing better with democrats. Trump is a candidate that was placed there by the democrats so they can have a better chance in the elections. In next elections they will simply move the goal post and get someone even worse for Republican party and whatever you are voting against in these elections will be the democrat position in the next one.
      • lennybird@lemmy.world
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        8 months ago

        Either vote third party or don’t waste your time voting. You are getting nothing better with democrats. Trump is a candidate that was placed there by the democrats so they can have a better chance in the elections. In next elections they will simply move the goal post and get someone even worse for Republican party and whatever you are voting against in these elections will be the democrat position in the next one.

        Ladies and gentlemen, a wedge-driving operative seeking to undermine Democrats and get Trump into office. There is literally zero evidence that “Trump is a candidate that was placed there by Democrats”. There is zero historical evidence voting third party does anything more than get the worse of two evils in office — and Ukrainians and Palestinians would much prefer Biden over Trump any day.

        This is the rhetoric of someone either not either not familiar with the political system, or intentionally trying to undermine the left by opening the door for conservatives.

        • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          8 months ago

          There is zero historical evidence voting third party does anything more than get the worse of two evils in office

          no such evidence is possible: you can’t prove a counterfactual. you can’t know who the worse evil would be. further it’s not clear that so-called “third party” voters actually impact elections at all unless their candidate wins.

          • lennybird@lemmy.world
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            8 months ago

            No, we can. 3rd parties have been around for decades and won nothing and only exacerbated the goals of said parties by undermining the only party that has tangible results.

            You prove my point.

            • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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              8 months ago

              3rd parties have been around for decades and won nothing and only exacerbated the goals of said parties by undermining the only party that has tangible results.

              this simply isn’t true and reflects a myopic view of history. so-called third parties have been with us almost since the inception of the us, and have accomplished things inconceivable to modern politicians.

              • lennybird@lemmy.world
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                8 months ago

                It simply is true. Even the longest serving Independent in congressional history caucuses and ran as a Democrat.

                But do tell what any third party from Libertarians to the Green Party have accomplished, relative to Democrats for the working class.

                Have you even heard of Nader or Perot?

                • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                  8 months ago

                  what any third party from Libertarians to the Green Party have accomplished

                  the prohibition party got a constitutional amendment passed. the republican party completely usurped the whigs.

                • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                  8 months ago

                  Have you even heard of Nader or Perot

                  yes, and i also know that their candidacy had nothing to do with who won the two elections they are (erroneously) credited with spoiling.

                  • lennybird@lemmy.world
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                    8 months ago

                    They’re (accurately) credited with spoiling said elections and it is yet another example of the complete toothless value of 3rd-parties.

                • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                  8 months ago

                  Even the longest serving Independent in congressional history caucuses and ran as a Democrat.

                  so? that doesn’t prove that so-called third parties are impotent. it shows that one person made some questionable decisions.

                  • lennybird@lemmy.world
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                    8 months ago

                    “Questionable decisions,” said the individual who had to dig back 100 years to find an example of any tangible progress made by such a 3rd-party…?

                    I think I’ll go with the party that actually has a track-record of progress this half-century.

          • lennybird@lemmy.world
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            8 months ago

            Nobody in the entire country would’ve disagreed with that strategy at the time, for quite literally everyone including Republicans thought Trump would doom the party. Hindsight is 20/20

            That, however isn’t the same as saying Trump is a Democratic plant colluding in disguise lol.

        • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          8 months ago

          This is the rhetoric of someone either not either not familiar with the political system, or intentionally trying to undermine the left by opening the door for conservatives.

          false dichotomy. they may be familiar with the political system (even more than you or i), and not believe the same things you do. they may be a leftist. you are making up attacks on their person instead of dealing with the substance of their claims.

            • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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              8 months ago

              that’s a thought-terminating cliche like saying it’s common sense. if you can’t support your position, that’s no reason to go off attacking other people as malevolent or incompetent.

              • lennybird@lemmy.world
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                8 months ago

                My original statements remain largely untouched; it’s not my issue you deflected the aforementioned points. Why proceed further?