I am not sure about your point. I think that we agree on this, but it sounds like you are making a counter argument.
If religion was the reason, then this genocide would happen everywhere and all the time.
You could argue that it does or at least did. But in this case and in most modern day cases. the true motives are not religion and genocides would have happened even if there was no religion.
In the Israel Vs Hamas, the conflict is not religion. It is the right to exist Vs the right to land. Some may have used religion as a historic backdrop, but this has nothing to do with religion.
When Hamas members say that they want to genocide all the Jews they are saying it’s a religious thing. And they have been saying that for all my conscious life. Meanwhile Israel is motivated by religion to insure their God given territory is kept safe and are willing to genocide any group that threatens them. Both parties are motivated to use religion as an excuse for genocide. This is, at its very core a religious conflict.
If you think we agreed then you’re such a motivated thinker that you motivated yourself out of reading comprehension. Religion is an excuse for a lot of things in this world. But in this case it is the reason, not the excuse.
Not true. Basically, they want an end to the apartheid.
Is is a complicated history but even the Hamas founding charter, which is certainly unreasonable in its fundamentalism with Sharia Law and is antisemitic, does not call for the extermination of all Jewish People. That’s a lie, and also intentionally ignores the 2017 Revised charter. Check Article 7 and 13 of the 1988 Charter to see yourself, compare it to Article 20 and 24-26 in the revised version too. Hamas has committed atrocious acts, there’s no need to make things up about Hamas to show they’ve done terrible things. Ending the occupation and having a Palestinian election for the Palestinian people to choose their own leadership is the way to diminish support for Hamas and other Armed resistance groups. Further terrorizing the West Bank and Gaza will only increase their support, which has been shown historically not only within the Occupied Palestinian Territories but throughout history.
How many quotes from Hamas leaders saying they want to kill every jew would I need to supply before I could even get you to entertain that your position may not be correct?
Have Hamas leaders said antisemitic comments? Certainly, I’m sure some are genuinely antisemitic on top of being anti-zionist. That and their targeting of civilians has been a major reason for their lack of support by Palestinians historically.
Does that change the reality of the permanent occupation, or the apartheid laws, or the settler colonialism? No. Palestinians deserve basic human and civil rights. They deserve free and fair elections. How do you propose the conflict be resolved?
I want to be clear on my position so that you don’t argue against something else: I’m not arguing that Israel is in any way justified for their actions of apartheid or their retaliation.
I’m arguing Hamas isn’t going to be happy if the apartheid ends. They want not just the state of Israel destroyed but all Jews dead. Not a few members here or there but the super majority. Claiming that this is just about apartheid is pretending that there isn’t a genocidal goal. That predates the apartheid. It’s what caused Israel to start the apartheid in the first place. It’s a feedback loop. The tighter they squeeze the more martyrs they make. The less the squeeze the more they risk being genocided. It’s a no win situation. Until one side kills the other, per each’s own view of manifest destiny, this will not end.
What ethic since 1920 its 100% colonialism Israël is younger as a country than my grand father wtf.
You dont immigrate thousand of people and steal territory by ethic.
Repatriation is the term. Jews do, after all, originate from Judea and Samaria. I hope you are not going to argue with that.
Modern state of Israel is younger, but there were Jewish states there in antique times destroyed by force. I hope you are not going to argue with that either.
These things said, that’s not quite the approach Israeli elites themselves take - they are exactly colonialist and proud of that, so probably that state should be cut down to something like “initial Zionist settlements plus Eilat with land connecting them and some farmland”, that’d still be quite viable as a state due to sea and technological development.
I am a lifelong atheist and disagree with this. Religion isn’t the problem, bad people are. Religion is a vehicle for bad people to harm those who are vulnerable.
The problem is religion.
Religion is the exuse… It’s neither the reason nor the problem.
Excuses are what enables something to happen even when the right solution is different.
I am not sure about your point. I think that we agree on this, but it sounds like you are making a counter argument.
If religion was the reason, then this genocide would happen everywhere and all the time.
You could argue that it does or at least did. But in this case and in most modern day cases. the true motives are not religion and genocides would have happened even if there was no religion. In the Israel Vs Hamas, the conflict is not religion. It is the right to exist Vs the right to land. Some may have used religion as a historic backdrop, but this has nothing to do with religion.
When Hamas members say that they want to genocide all the Jews they are saying it’s a religious thing. And they have been saying that for all my conscious life. Meanwhile Israel is motivated by religion to insure their God given territory is kept safe and are willing to genocide any group that threatens them. Both parties are motivated to use religion as an excuse for genocide. This is, at its very core a religious conflict.
Then we agree. They use religion as the excuse. But the true reason is territory and power. No one is fighting for their religion to be spread.
Israel want control of the territories. Palestine wants it’s own state after Israel was given their territory.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/whats-israel-palestinian-conflict-about-how-did-it-start-2024-01-14/
If you think we agreed then you’re such a motivated thinker that you motivated yourself out of reading comprehension. Religion is an excuse for a lot of things in this world. But in this case it is the reason, not the excuse.
You are right. We do not agree
Not true. Basically, they want an end to the apartheid.
Is is a complicated history but even the Hamas founding charter, which is certainly unreasonable in its fundamentalism with Sharia Law and is antisemitic, does not call for the extermination of all Jewish People. That’s a lie, and also intentionally ignores the 2017 Revised charter. Check Article 7 and 13 of the 1988 Charter to see yourself, compare it to Article 20 and 24-26 in the revised version too. Hamas has committed atrocious acts, there’s no need to make things up about Hamas to show they’ve done terrible things. Ending the occupation and having a Palestinian election for the Palestinian people to choose their own leadership is the way to diminish support for Hamas and other Armed resistance groups. Further terrorizing the West Bank and Gaza will only increase their support, which has been shown historically not only within the Occupied Palestinian Territories but throughout history.
Hamas founding charter and Revised charter 2017
History of Hamas supported by Netanyahu since 2012
Gaza Blockade is still Occupation
Dahiya Doctrine
Gaza March for Return Protest
Apartheid
AWRAD Gaza War Poll
PCPSR Public Opinion Poll Dec 2023
How many quotes from Hamas leaders saying they want to kill every jew would I need to supply before I could even get you to entertain that your position may not be correct?
Have Hamas leaders said antisemitic comments? Certainly, I’m sure some are genuinely antisemitic on top of being anti-zionist. That and their targeting of civilians has been a major reason for their lack of support by Palestinians historically.
Does that change the reality of the permanent occupation, or the apartheid laws, or the settler colonialism? No. Palestinians deserve basic human and civil rights. They deserve free and fair elections. How do you propose the conflict be resolved?
I want to be clear on my position so that you don’t argue against something else: I’m not arguing that Israel is in any way justified for their actions of apartheid or their retaliation.
I’m arguing Hamas isn’t going to be happy if the apartheid ends. They want not just the state of Israel destroyed but all Jews dead. Not a few members here or there but the super majority. Claiming that this is just about apartheid is pretending that there isn’t a genocidal goal. That predates the apartheid. It’s what caused Israel to start the apartheid in the first place. It’s a feedback loop. The tighter they squeeze the more martyrs they make. The less the squeeze the more they risk being genocided. It’s a no win situation. Until one side kills the other, per each’s own view of manifest destiny, this will not end.
Also, you didn’t answer my question.
Problem is colonialism lol
Erosion of ethics on the use of force rather.
For just a few decades there was an illusion of “the West” having some success in making those ethics the baseline.
What ethic since 1920 its 100% colonialism Israël is younger as a country than my grand father wtf. You dont immigrate thousand of people and steal territory by ethic.
Repatriation is the term. Jews do, after all, originate from Judea and Samaria. I hope you are not going to argue with that.
Modern state of Israel is younger, but there were Jewish states there in antique times destroyed by force. I hope you are not going to argue with that either.
These things said, that’s not quite the approach Israeli elites themselves take - they are exactly colonialist and proud of that, so probably that state should be cut down to something like “initial Zionist settlements plus Eilat with land connecting them and some farmland”, that’d still be quite viable as a state due to sea and technological development.
I am a lifelong atheist and disagree with this. Religion isn’t the problem, bad people are. Religion is a vehicle for bad people to harm those who are vulnerable.