Reddit used to be a great platform to discuss some topic and get different points of few in a friendly but factual manner. However, slowly it seems like the platform has become a lot more like Facebook, where it’s been invaded by toxic people that are constantly looking for opportunities to shit and hate on others.
The change has been gradual so I really didn’t notice it creep up on me. It’s become super evident now having used Kbin and others for a week or so where people generally seem to be more friendly again and willing to actually discuss things in a usually civil way.
The difference is stark too. Today I replied to a comment saying that I hope things turn out better for them and wound up in a weird comment chain about how people were apparently insensitive for wanting to get a basic haircut that they for some reason couldn’t afford themselves. Meanwhile, Kbin and the Fediverse feels like a refreshing place to actually converse with people once you get past the clunk and figure it out.
I think Reddit may well have reached that main stream social media saturation point where it very objectively now sucks. It happened originally with the internet itself thanks to the rise of the smartphone and this is just another iteration of it. I feel like Spez might as well get that bag at this point because they’ve ruined what used to be the platform people went to for social media without the bullshit, without algorithms to drive “engagement” and to avoid the toxic culture that has prevailed.
Thanks for reading my rant.
As I’ve seen posted before, one of the reasons is due to enshittification. Feel free to peruse at your leisure. Greed is certainly the biggest contributing factor, but there’s another, lesser talked about effect happening here that “compliments” enshittification if you will.
It’s a sort of “reverse gentrification” of a social media platform that has just crested in popularity/usability, which in turn creates a snowball effect (or in the interest of the aforementioned process, a “shitball” effect). It’s when the good posters, the ones that actually READ the articles, the ones that make educated or otherwise well thought out comments and actually take time to speak to the person behind the computer instead of using anonymity as a means to be vile or rude or nasty, all migrate off of the platform. They see the writing on the walls, and so they leave. This leaves behind more and more of those that don’t really care about details or politics or social causes, nor care about anything other than their instant gratification (i.e. we don’t care about the blackouts we just want everything to open back up so we can get back to our memes).
In other words, as more decent people leave a social media platform, all that’s left are the ones that make the platform undesirable to begin with, thus causing more people to leave and the decline deepens. We saw this with Facebook. All that’s left on Facebook are people who are out of touch with reality and those who use the platform as a propaganda machine.
We’re also seeing a rise in what I can only describe as “Corporate Apologists” - People who constantly make excuses for companies that shouldn’t be defended or are otherwise indefensible. It is pretty disheartening to see so many people rush to the side of businesses that are openly exploiting their workforce (in some cases the defenders are the exploited, which boggles the mind). People who defend Elon Musk and his handling of Twitter, people who defend Reddit and think the blackouts were always going to be useless so why bother (those people missed the point entirely), people who defend anti-union tactics or businesses that don’t want their employees to have living wages. All of these are because the person has some self-image or interest that is tied to that business/platform. A part of (sometimes a large part of) their identity is defined by a product and so they won’t even entertain the idea of trying to go against it, lest that product or company be taken away (and a part of their identity with it). There are people who really pride themselves on their number of followers, their internet karma, other useless tokens that they attribute to personal self-worth.
Anyway, I’ve ranted long enough. I’m tired so some of what I said probably doesn’t make sense and I apologize. Maybe I’ll come back later and clean it up a bit once I’ve rested.
Nah, it’s people and algorithms. The algorithms we see today in certain social media apps etc encourage certain behaviours and patterns of use.
Not all algorithms or systems necessarily encourage productive and rational discussion or “information hunting” for practice and forward thinking.
Consider that brainwashing and warmongering propaganda is still alive and well used today in many parts of the world, the reality is that nobody is immune, but we can at least make ourselves aware of the “drug” that these systems give our brains and avoid allowing ourselves to become a victim to the system by being aware of someone else’s dogma or agendas.
Its highly topic dependent:
On political things, speaking for myself, frankly, I learned a few hard lessons over the last 8ish years:
- Lots of people don’t want to think and didn’t think themselves into supporting what they support.
- Lots of people are dishonest about why they support/think what they do, even with themselves.
- Unless somebody is exceptionally rational, you’re not going to change their opinion in a short online argument.
So off the bat my preference is for reasoned discussion, sure. But at the first use of the buzzword-of-the-week (“woke” most prominently right now) you pretty much need to throw all that out on the principal of “you can’t win a chess game against a pigeon”. You can just walk away, sure. But if you’re going to continue to engage you need to be aware that you aren’t actually arguing with the person, you’re performing for an audience and trying to show that the other guys position makes him look stupid, and maybe make him feel stupid too… hopefully if that happens a lot he’ll take a different position (but it’ll be 100% based on feelings, not reason). And this isn’t just online, this is in real life too. I realized that I’m too inclined to just walk away from a stupid argument, which these people view as a “win”. Instead, now I more regularly rudely and publicly make my point and make things socially awkward for everybody. It sucks and I hate it, but they’ll never shut up otherwise and that sucks too so it’s like ripping a bandaid off.
Here’s the thing: typically I’m not going into a discussion on social media with the aim to change people’s opinions or even to argue with them.
But what ends up happening is that they immediately assume it’s a bad high school debate and things quickly devolve into bad faith arguments, attempts to nitpick and just general toxicity.
Wow, there’s a lot of finger pointing at different generational demographics here over something that’s structural to Reddit.
Stupidly big forums + up/down votes dictating what actually gets seen is a recipe for dunking, sarcasm, and generally shitty behaviour.
Onces there’s more people in a community than people can actually remember the name/pfp of, then other members stop being people and start being either an audience or cannon fodder. Couple that with the fact that people love a good snarky comment or rhetorical thrashing, and that leaves busy spaces as prime real estate for smack talk showdown.
On top of that, there’s simply the fact that anyone not trying too hard to get noticed just doesn’t get heard at all. Taking the time to post something thoughtful when literally no one is going to see it is a fool’s errand, and not worth anybody’s time. So, you either waste your time and become increasingly embittered, or you don’t, and just say vapid but snappy bullshit.
Then there’s the fact that moderators are overwhelmed by groups that large, and will default to mental self-defense by doing things like banning without warning, not being transparent, not attempting deescalation, etc. This creates a gulf between the community and the community managers, which furthers the dehumanizing dynamics (and leads to people seeing moderators as power tripping narcissists, rather than tired and fed up people).
We simply didn’t evolve to empathize with, listen to, or manage 600,000 people at once. We did, however, evolve to try to win popularity contests and define in-groups and out-groups.
I’m an old fucker, to me it seems like the tipping point started in 2008, and really started to get bad in 2016.
I was already chatting on online forums in the late 90s, and on slashdot starting around 2000. There was lots of discussion, some of it first, but it was just discussion. Not a lot of politics per se.
In September 2001, al queda attacked the world trade center, the Pentagon, and another plane was flown into the ground. This led to lots of discussion online and a massive increase in political conversations.
In 2003, America went to war in Iraq. This was a generational event, and it fundamentally changed internet conversation. Partisanship really started to show up, in part thanks to George W. Bush’s “you’re either with us or you’re with the terrorists” rhetoric.
At some point along the way, I stopped using slashdot. I tried using kuro5hin for a while, then Digg, and eventually landed on Reddit.
Two fundamental changes that happened in 2008 were the election of Barack Obama, and the Ron Paul revolution. In both cases, internet ground game ended up having an outsided impact on politics. Barack Obama ended up being an internet sensation, and his Democrats got the presidency and both houses of Congress by a wide margin. Ron Paul didn’t come close to winning any primaries, but the shadow of this campaign cast a long shadow over the Republican party, arguably leading to the tea party faction taking over the party for a time.
This made everyone perk up in politics. Where a few candidates realized before that this Internet thing could be powerful, 2008 showed that it could fundamentally change the game.
While reddit was highly political in 2008, there were many factions. That’s what made it a fun place to be – there were right wingers, religious people, libertarians, liberals, socialists, and social justice advocates. I think at this point, however, forces started to work to take over the discourse. By 2015, subtle changes had taken place to really make anyone who wasn’t part of a specific ideology feel unwelcome, including a differential treatment of different groups. Most brigading subs were handled by admins (by shutting them down), but notably /r/shitredditsays which brigaded “bigoted” comments was allowed to stay up. Powermods were previously a problem on Digg, eventually the same problem seemed to start occurring on Reddit where a small group of mods were controlling hundreds of subreddits.
By the time I left for good, it was clear to me that reddit wasn’t anything like the place it used to be. Many subreddits either through social engineering or through bots would see posts that were not part of the mandatory orthodoxy immediately hammered into the dirt. “The downvote button is not an I disagree button” clearly didn’t apply anymore. Until that point, I was deleting my account every few months and making a new one because doxxing was a growing problem and I didn’t want to have my real life destroyed for having an opinion people disagreed with, but eventually the site lost all value to me since I knew you couldn’t have discussions on the discussion site any longer.
The successful election of Donald Trump put everything into hyperdrive. Controlled subreddits became graveyards of dissent, and polarization became total as people picked sides. At that point I no longer returned to reddit in any regard because there was just no point.
The cultures of the different highly polarized sides became quite different, all toxic in their own ways. The left became ridiculously authoritarian to keep outsiders out, the right became ridiculously offensive to keep outsiders out. The fact that there was one website (whatever that website was) meant that you could kinda play for keeps – take over a website with authoritarian moderation or with extreme offensiveness, and you win that front.
My hope is that the decentralized nature of the fediverse helps. When Lemmy.ml or beehaw go too authoritarian, people can just find something else on the same platform that’s more reasonable. If certain websites are too crass and offensive, people can go find something else on the same platform that’s more reasonable. In it’s built-in diversity, the fediverse is set up so everyone can have their space, and the worst that can happen is someone shunts you out of theirs (but you get to keep yours).
I’ve found the fediverse actually deradicalized me a lot. There are still people I disagree with, but I get to participate in discussions that remind me that whatever the “other side” is has some good ideas, and also I get to see that I actually disagree with extremists of all kinds. Being exposed to bad ideas doesn’t make me agree with them, it helps illustrate how bad they are regardless of source.
I think genuine and thoughtful discussion takes a lot more effort than shit posting, and when you mix that with a karma system that encourages one-upmanship and a few echo chambers, it can get toxic real quick.
A big part of it is people are just angry and stressed in general because the system we live in is fundamentally broken (pretty much no matter where you are in the world, though I am speaking through an American lens since the majority of Reddit is American).
Everyone can feel the effects of an economy and government that just doesn’t work for them. We’re fundamentally divided on how to fix it. Minorites are directly under attack and that manages to leach into most conversations, either directly or sideways. It makes people incredibly defensive.
The fediverse has a higher barrier to entry and, statistically, tech-minded people skew liberal. We’re a self-selecting community that is just more likely to agree – for instance – that trans people are people.
Further, since these services are decentralizedv and self-hosted, we can literally make hate groups unwelcome/banned from our instances because there is no profit motivation for hand-wringing like there is with Reddit.
I really hate how much certain groups constantly dog whistle about transgender people as if it’s the new scary gay people that are coming for your kids or something. Meanwhile, the average person would be lucky to even run into a transgender person and even realize it on any given day.
Here is what I honestly think happened: a lot of older gen x and boomers saw their reputations destroyed on Facebook during the Trump Era.
The people who didn’t leave Facebook because of them just put them on mute. They only had other old people to communicate with. This didn’t satisfy them though, because really their entire ideology is wrapped around triggering other people.
So they went to reddit and discovered that anonymous shit posting was safer and their Facebook went back to livelaughlove largely.
When I joined Reddit 10+ years ago there was no “old.reddit.com” it was just reddit. The “new” UI was designed to basically entice users who found the original threaded discussion forum a bit daunting. But that (barely) complicated looking format kept a lot of lazy minded fools away from the place.
It’s that way with literally every “scene”. The easier it becomes to join, the more diluted the quality of the music/activity/discussion/hobby.
So…that’s what happened. Reddit made reddit more palatable to a wider audience, and that wider audience includes a wider spread of the bell curve that is humanity. Sucks, don’t it.
I first joined Reddit in 2007 when it was a genuinely friendly and informative place. The first big change came with the Digg exodus which brought mainstream meme culture. I think at that point, Conde Nast starting putting serious pressure onto management for Reddit to become more of a social network. This then led to the broken UI changes which, as you say, brought the wider bell-curve of humanity with it.
The problem is that Reddit simply didn’t have the security controls/moderation in place for that type of activity. By 2016, Reddit was being widely manipulated by outside sources – Large corporations were hiring troll-farms to shill their products; Nation-state actors were doing the same; political activists were trolling/abusing Reddit’s systems in any way they could – doxxing, death threats, extreme trolling…
And the friendliness and trust were gone forever. And instead of having discussions, it’s now just everyone shouting over each other.
Now the management just want to cash out and using Reddit is now like writing a college essay while sitting in a McDonalds basmement eating a stale three-hour old Big Mac.
Also, there are so, so many bad faith actors on reddit that at some point, you start assuming everyone around you is arguing in bad faith. So you don’t even try to engage in conversation any more, you either jump straight to insulting / trolling them, or just downvote/report/block without even interacting.
I don’t know if you’ve seen the official phone app for Reddit but its an even worse version of that. There’s no “hot” etc of your subscribed subs, rather it’s now a firehose of whatever the algorithm thinks will piss you off enough to interact more with it.
I still can’t believe people are okay with an algorithm choosing what they see on social media, let alone a completely private one where you have no clue how it works. Like, obviously because it’s a bright-red flag that they’re going to try to manipulate you. But even if you don’t care about that, like, I want to see posts from communities and creators I’ve chosen to follow. Not have my feed flooded with garbage from random creators / communities.
Further, I think people running into argumentative people led to them expecting people to be argumentative, and if you go looking for trouble, you’re going to find it.
Speaking as an older person who’s been on the internet since it became a public thing, I don’t think it’s necessarily older folks’ fault. Most of the crappy interactions I had on there were with young “edgelord” male gamers.
I think it’s more nuanced than any one group.
Basically, if you build it they will come refers to the dross, who come in droves once something is a recognizeable “thing” and then we all have to abandon ship for greener pastures and more measured discourse.
Reddit’s far left can be pretty toxic too. As an old liberal myself, I don’t believe that there are any good kinds of hate or discrimination, but if you argue against that kind of crap, the absolute worst people come out to defend it. A good chunk of my negative interactions have been with those people.
That being said, the Eternal September is real. I don’t know anyone in real life who actually thinks like that. The trouble is, if you have ten million users, a tenth of a percent of them could be assholes and that’s still 10,000 obnoxious assholes.
This. Reddit left will be talking shit about how violent right wingers are then in the next thread be calling for violence against them. I am pretty left on most issues before anyone jumps in to call me a fascist lol
Would agree. Also, despite what much of Reddit seems to believe, there are plenty of conservative and moderate young adults and youngsters. Reddit is not a general good representation of public opinion at large. It’s very obvious when elections roll around and many subreddits are calling for landslides that never seem to occur.
Yeah, I’m another old school early adopter who was on the internet since the '80s. No way the enshittification and souring of Reddit was caused by boomers and Gen xers. Most of them wouldn’t know how to get on, and those who would… Honestly, I’m the only boomer I know who is on there. Well, unless you go to some of the subreddits that are specifically for people over 50. And those people are incredibly nice! One of the few things I will really miss about Reddit.
You see this happening on Reddit now when anyone mentions the Fediverse at all. Plenty of replies comparing it to NFTs and other junk from dipshits who will come flocking over to this especially if the stuff Meta is doing takes off.
I really hope they are kept in check. No karma, no corporations, no problem. I hope Meta’s EEE attempt crashes and burns. They are not welcome to the Fediverse.
Far as I know, facebook’s crowd skews older and I’m going to assume not necessarily more tech savvy or they’d be somewhere else. So I’m wondering who they’re planning to sell this to.
On the one hand, the more easily accessible the introduction is, the more people will flock to it for the same reasons I and others went with kbin over lemmy. So they may at least become a jumping off point the way internet explorer/edge will always be the “downloading a better browser” browser.
On the other hand, they’re trying to sell everyone’s grandma the entire fediverse. There’s no way that’s going to be a smooth ride if it ever succeeds at all. It took a bit for me to parse everything when I first got here. I think we’re more or less safe atm from my dumbass cousin no matter how hard they push their product simply because I’m not sure it can be made less daunting after a certain point.
Also, nobody (fb included) wants their aging relatives to see that amount of porn, especially when they’re the one posting it. Facebook is going to have a choice to make if they want to save their christian Minecraft server.
Add to that, if a user’s instance is one their family would find unacceptable, the only options are to keep family-oriented alts (annoying) or to pretend irl to have no knowledge of the fediverse at large. The second one is easier, so there’s a real chance they may start out being shunned a bit.
I don’t think the two things mesh very well, with the userbase and reputation fb currently has. It might be something and it might even become a household name if they throw enough money at it, but it feels unlikely that anything they do will ever be the go-to thing again purely because of who they’ve been courting these years.
The real answer is that smart tech savvy people were first one reddit. Then the masses came. Then it sucked. This happened with literally every platform.
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Because Reddit got a reputation for being lenient on people who are toxic. I gave up on general, current affairs or regional subs a long time ago it’s only smaller communities I’m leaving now.
Think of r/incels or r/The_Donald, r/GenderCritical, r/NoNewNormal etc - and they’re the examples from recent, more generally appealing years after the subs named after slurs were nuked. These are the subreddits that got mainstream attention, they may no longer be on Reddit, but their members are, and anyone who would be drawn to them is still signing up, on the other hand lots of people have been turned off the site by those associations. It’s not just that there’s lots of people joining the site, it’s who those people are.
In the same vein it’s a really easy site to astroturf and there’s no doubt in my mind that the “culture wars” are being stoked there because of it. Because there’s a market for aged accounts for use in political astroturfing or general product shilling there are companies running the same shitty repost bots everywhere to produce them. It’s a cycle that seems to be getting shorter and shorter.
