At the moment the internet is flawed, do you think the fediverse is the solution?
Probably not replace, but certainly it could be a viable and thriving part of the picture. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with having options.
And maybe it’s a good thing it’s not dumbed down. Keeps the cruft out! LOL
I expect good and insightful conversations to be moved here.
Reddit is about to become like twitter and facebook where it’s ad-ridden, toxicity cesspool.
People will leave to keep having the actual forum experience and will eventually move here as it looks like a very good alternative.
Sometimes I feel like my reddit experience was so different from a lot of people’s. I unsubbed from all the default subs and built a specific homepage for the things I found interesting. Unfortunately for me, that means the communities were (relatively speaking) smaller than the popular ones, but still large enough to have frequent engagement. Going to be hard to replicate that, I think.
My approach as well, it took me a long time to realize why I got weird looks saying I browsed reddit at work. My page was opensource,computer, tech, stuff with some other hobbies.My friends was just porn lol
@Alkalyon @Bicyclejohn #Reddit was already toxic, but I guess now people will begin to recognize its toxicity.
@realcaseyrollins
> Reddit was already toxic, but I guess now people will begin to recognize its toxicity… just like Titter.
Yup, that part.
We been knew about Twitter but for a lot of us, Musk taking the wheel was the push we needed to find greener, less toxic pastures.
Speaking of greener, less toxic pastures, what are you using as an alternative? Mastodon, Bluesky or something else?
I went back to Mastodon. Had to move my account twice more to find an instance a) I really gelled with, b) took the safety of marginalized people seriously, and c) did not hesitate to pushback against the hateful stuff.
It’s been pretty nice.
@StoicLime
> what are you using as an alternative?I never really used Titter. My account was just a sock puppet that echoed my posts from my Mastodon account. I’m posting this from Mastodon right now, but I also have a Friendica account, and I’m keen to check out CalcKey. All of these, like Lemmy, are part of the fediverse and interoperate with each other.
(sorry if that’s obvious to you but it’s not to everyone so I’m spelling it out)
There’s so many options I was paralyzed by choice for awhile! But options are great!
#Reddit was already toxic
I got banned for replying to a racist comment in sarcasm, to make them see how racist the comment is.
I got banned for racism…
Fuck reddit really.
No. And that’s fine. I don’t expect underground music to replace top 40. And there’s a place for both.
Very well said
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To some extent this is a feature, not a problem though. I know it’s elitist, but in a lot of ways the internet was a much nicer place when it was just a bunch of tech nerds.
I hope you don’t mean nicer as in “friendlier,” because the internet has always been a hellscape
No, I didn’t. Maybe “more interesting” would have been a better phrasing. The signal to noise ratio is so much worse now than it was 20 years ago.
“Servers? Instances? Is this a place to connect with my friends or a goddamn server room?”
That’s not a property of of federation (see email and websites) it’s just because early adopters are a little wired. In any new social phenomenon, it takes a second wave of adopters (first wave of followers) to bridge the wierdos from the masses.
Cue this classic study in leadership: https://youtu.be/hO8MwBZl-Vc be the first one to follow the wierdos and show the masses it’s cool.
But couldn’t it be made easier? Who cares which server a community or a user is registered on. I register where a friend sent me the link to and from there on it shouldn’t matter and could be handled in the background.
The big sites are also not one central instance. They have several distributed instances all managed by the same company.
Future instance owners and moderators don’t want users and communities to be able to migrate seamlessly. Mastodon has the same fatal flaw. They want to keep your history and relationships hostage so you can’t leave. This is the only thing turns signup to Lemmy and Mastodon into an important decision you don’t want to get wrong. That’s why you have to read and read and read before signing up and be a Lemmy expert before choosing the right instance for you.
Of course by this time 99% of users have gone back to Reddit. And the 1% that stays still feels like a huge wave.
Also many elitists are happy signup is clunky, it filters out the rif raf and the common Joe. It creates an exclusive space where everyone uses Linux, loves anime and don’t like sports.
A place with no cultural relevance ree from eternal September.
Well there’s also techies who don’t (only) use Linux and like (some) sports. More of a Sci-Fi and Comic Book guy than anime here.
Let’s see how this grows.
Future instance owners and moderators don’t want users and communities to be able to migrate seamlessly. Mastodon has the same fatal flaw
This is misrepresentative for a few ways.
For one, you can in fact migrate your mastadon account, fairly easily in fact.
For another thing, instance owners and moderators don’t really get to choose whether migration is possible, the code contributors do. I suppose instance owners could start forking their own version of lemmy to make that harder, but ultimately there will always be folks willing to host the “best” version, and so people will just leave
Mastodon has the same fatal flaw. They want to keep your history and relationships hostage so you can’t leave.
You can migrate your relationships to a new Mastodon server.
And while you can’t directly transfer the history (the debate over how/whether to do this has gone on for literally years), you can export an archive you can keep locally, and there are tools out there to parse it and convert it to some other form (static website, whatever). Someone’s probably written an importer by now, though I’d have to look.
I agree. It’s been fun and challenging to learn even just as a user. I work in tech and it is a lot of concepts to grasp and understand. So much potential though!
People said that about reddit, I don’t think Lemmy is anywhere near being too complex for the average user. More that social medias generally favor simplicity because simplicity is easy to control, modify, and generally nudge from a developer side trying to guarantee a very specific use case that generates money, rather than just naturally occurring social systems.
Let’s be real, humans have been dealing with social networks far more complex, systems more complex, for almost all of human history. The sheer volume of people, no, but the actual processes of interaction, yes.
The various people who work on the fediverse are all doing it for fundamentally different goals, solving different problems, and building different things for different people. It just so happens that, more often than not, a lot of our stuff works together now thanks to the hard efforts put forward by people who cared about interoperability.
I personally believe that the fediverse will kill traditional social media platforms. Because if you can just communicate around a walled garden, what’s the point or value in staying in one?
I think we still have a long way to go in terms of usability and design. Those things, along with marketing, remain pretty steep barriers to adoption by people who are unfamiliar with it. There are also a lot of capital-H Hard problems that need to be sorted out down the road, like better filtering and moderation tools, and more robust controls for privacy. I have a feeling we’ll get there, but only through hard work and collaboration.
I guess a different way of understanding things is that, the fediverse might not kill the competition outright, but it has the potential to outlast them as something better. And hopefully someday, it’ll be as ubiquitous and ordinary as email.
Because if you can just communicate around a walled garden, what’s the point or value in staying in one?
Because people are happy with that garden and don’t think about others. Please remember that your average internet user doesn’t really know what an API is, or understand about open standards, they just want to find some content that matches their interests, upvote and share said content with their friends who are also inside that garden.
This average user isn’t a bad person, stupid or naiive, they just have other things going on in their lives and the internet is a small part of it. They use it, take what they want from it and move on, and there are so many more of those people than you.
People who switch from iOS to Android report losing friends who were on iMessage and are unwilling to move to something platform agnostic such as Signal or WhatsApp. I wouldn’t underestimate the walled garden effect.
No, I don’t think the Fediverse can replace social media.
People are drawn to social media exactly because of its flaws. The algorithms are what keep people engaged.
When the first waves of Twitter refugees hit Mastodon, a common complaint was that the site felt dead. There was plenty of activity, but the truth is that Twitter’s algorithm was designed to be engaging while Mastodon is more of a “you get what you want to get” kind of deal.
Then there’s federation. It’s impossible for every server to federate and exchange content with every other server in the Fediverse. The network just doesn’t scale that well. That means you’ll have to be aware of communities on other servers and interact with those if you want to find like minded people. On traditional social media, you can probably find a complete community to your tastes just by using the search bar.
Then there’s the technical challenge. Federated series don’t scale as well. You can see this when a Mastodon post hits the front page of Hacker News and the instance instantly goes down as hundreds of thousands of requests come in, some users, some bots. Twitter can withstand being linked, but the server running on some poor guy’s VPS simply can’t.
Money is also a challenge. Servers cost money and moderators are only free up to a certain point. Social media companies can afford their servers, either through VC money or through conducting business, but there’s no profit model for the Fediverse. You can set up donations, but you’ll probably still be doing all the work to maintain the servers unpaid.
Interestingly, BlueSky seems to be going in a different direction. I don’t know if it’s part of the Fediverse (they are working on federation) but their designs allow for the things that pull people into Twitter while also being hacked by large spenders. Nostr also solves some of the Fediverse’s problems while introducing others, but I don’t expect them to end up as big as BlueSky. But hey, who knows, maybe someone will write an efficient bridge between these services so the Fediverse can enjoy the success of its competition.
The Fediverse is great for what it does, and for many people it will be a great alternative to social media. However, without the constant pull of algorithms and a way to make money, I don’t think it’ll ever replace social media. And, to be honest, I wouldn’t want it to; without a significant amount of extra moderators, the toxicity of traditional social media will just overwhelm all the attempted alternatives anyway.
Thanks for this insightful post. I agree that the fediverse feels different and that’s ok. It’s exciting to get the chance to build something new and be a part of it starting.
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Great insight. I agree that the fediverse will never be anywhere near as big as mainstream social media, but I’m hoping it will continue to grow and be recognized as a valid alternative.
Personally I think of the fediverse as like diet social media. Just like how people switch from Coke to Diet Coke to avoid sugar, people can switch from Twitter to Mastodon to avoid recommendation algorithms and overly-stimulating content. At least that’s why I joined the fediverse. I know most people love algorithms and endless content (hence why Tik Tok is so huge) but for those of us who want something less stimulating, I’m glad that the fediverse exists as an alternative. As long as the fediverse is big enough to be enjoyable, but not so big that it becomes super addictive, that’s good enough for me.
yeah I definetly agree. specifically because of the lack of algorithms or profit motives it won’t be " addictive " nor as easy as traditional social media to find what I’m most likely to engage in. but it also means ragebait is less likely to be pushed to me, and for that, its actually quite fine…
im quite sick of the “few big websites” that the internet has become. I miss when there were a greater variety of forums, blogs and places to hang out, only supported through people’s passions. and it seems to me federation goes back to those old times.
You have to remember that the vast majority of people are, for lack of a better word, pretty dumb. You say the word “fediverse” and their eyes cross.
I mean yeah, that’s me. I’m just a regular guy, but since reddit decided to screw up in the worst ways possible, I need an alternative. I don’t fully understand the fediverse but I’m going to make an attempt to use kbin and see how it goes.
That’s just because they haven’t been taught about it yet. Once it catches on more (Twitter and Reddit refugees, Meta app) it’ll become more widely understood and more people will start using it. Once you understand the point of the Fediverse, using it isn’t a whole lot harder than any other social media.
I don’t know you overestimate people, I think if the Fediverse will succeed its gotta be dumbed down a lot more for people and made seemless so it works without them having to think about the various instances as much.
They don’t really HAVE to think about the various instances imo. They just need to join one, that’s it. Following users/communities from other instances isn’t hard to wrap your head around, you just follow them. badda-bing badda-boom. The @instance.whatever bit of their username barely matters. You just say “that’s like a URL to find that user on a different instance than the one you chose”. People arent as stupid as you might think, they just need someone patient enough to explain.
The truth is if you have to explain to users how it works, its not a very user-friendly concept.
that’s putting it lightly. But remember Twitter wasn’t mainstream for a while. And tbh it still isn’t.
I mean, tweets are pretty regularly cited on the news. Not sure how much more mainstream Twitter could become.
For most of the users currently online it’s extremely difficult to understand the concept of federation and how everything works, so I doubt it’ll ever be as prevalent as “the big social media platforms”, but for technically-inclined users, it’ll definitely have at least moderate success.
I believe that’s the point: Coming from Reddit, I don’t understand what Mastodon (yes, I thought it is something similar!), Fediverse, Lemmy.ml and feddit are, have in common or where the differences are.
And furthermore: Why should I care?
I think it will be hard to convince a significant number of people to come here and STAY.
I hope I’m wrong. I just created my first community :-)
Fediverse will go through what Linux went through. Be seen by businesses as an existential threat. Then face FUD and EEE campaign.
One day, likely earlier than Linux witnessed the rise of RedHat, Google, Facebook as prominent businesses that became poster children for Linux, new or existing businesses could be built around and/or on fediverse. They may as well come together to form an ActivityPub foundation similar to the Linux Foundation for all we know.
Email went through similar trajectory too. SMTP, IMAP, pop are are open protocols. Yet we have a sort of oligopoly on email.
Similar to how Windows did not die away because Linux came along, existing social networks may remain in existence. The availability of fediverse as an alternative would keep them busy
@Bicyclejohn I don’t know about “replace”, but popular social media could JOIN the fediverse.
I don’t blame new users to be late on news. But to make a quick recap, the people interested in implementing ActivityPub include:
- Meta (insta/twt replacement)
- Tumblr
- Wordpress.com
- Medium (currently only running mastodon)
- Discourse
- FlarumLast time I check those were a few popular social media.
Discourse and Flarum in particular are relevant to Lemmy
We are still missing basic tools, like the ability to import full history from one instance to another. To import posts and comments, not just followers and those we follow, or lists (which often isn’t functional as on my current instance). Frankly we should be able to import history from non-fediverse social media too, if one has output files from them. Nobody I’m aware of has built a single tool to help them navigate those histories, let alone import them.
Some people are working on that. Calckey will soon be able to import posts from twitter (can alerady import from mastodon). Pixelfed can already import from instagram right now!!
Kbin and lemmy are very late in that regard. You can’t even migrate your social graph.
I’m unable to do that on pixel.infosec.exchange which is the pixelfed instance I’m on. Is there some trick to it or is it just not universally available yet?
@aka_quant_noir@cinematheque.social @matthieu_xyz@piaille.fr @Bicyclejohn@lemmy.ml it’s a brand new feature in pixelfed – I’m not sure if it’s even in a stable version yet.
@kainoa @matthieu_xyz @Bicyclejohn
Well then I won’t get too excited. lol
It’s in the settings but brand-spanking-new.
This kind of import is something that I would absolutely love to see, but some backend stuff has to be figured out. Unfortunately, importing and creating thousands and thousands of posts can absolutely hammer a server, and it gets amplified if everybody’s doing it at the same time.
I had some ideas for a tool a while back that could import your posts first, help you sift through what your “Greatest Hits” were in terms of big life events or lots of conversation, and help you import those into another platform. The downside is, though, that you still wouldn’t be able to reconstruct the threads for people who haven’t moved over to the fediverse yet.
IMHO these are fundamentally different concepts. Popular social media is made popular by pushing curated ‘engaging’ content, rather than organic content, to monetize gullible users. It has become an entertainment venue, giving their audience a steady stream of what they want them to see, even if by force. Popular “Social Media” has rapidly devolved into a real-life MST3K. Users feel betrayed that the sites no longer feel like the social experience/experiment they wanted… but are users really wanting to leave, or just switch to voice outrage?
Alternatively, the fediverse doesn’t appeal to those wanting force fed entertainment, or seeking viral fame amongst family/friends, and outraged users will complain it doesn’t function like so-and-so site, or work ‘their way’. It is more technical and takes more proactive actions to engage with others, which is a positive thing.
Users think they can switch from Coke to Pepsi, but the fediverse is more of a mixed drink with some extra bourbon.
Could it / should it replace popular social media? Probably not, unless more mindsets change over what a social media experience should be… but it can fill a growing gap as this happens (which will in-turn improve features & development).
I would say, if in theory a social media achieved a small community, informative and positive culture which avoided spreading misinformation or cultivating harmful stereotypes of those they disagree with via the mechanisms of that social media, that it should be more standardized and more widely accepted. Largely because that is just more healthy in general. Not that Lemmy will necessarily be that in practice in the long run.
It’s more closely related to the initial intentions of the internet than most other social platforms. Ideally it could get things going back in the right direction again iif nothing else!
Long term, the Fediverse is the way forward, but social media has staying power even if it dimishes from what it was. It will ages before the Fediverse replaces centralized social media, but I think it will slowly happen.
I saw a comparison here between the Fediverse and other federated services like emails and POTS. I think there are a lot of similarities, but if that’s true, the Fediverse still has a long way to go before it matures like traditional federated services like email. Things like spamlists and increased interoperability will be needed eventually.
At least in the short-term, I think Lemmy has a good base here to take over from Reddit, and the increased focus will help the Fediverse mature further. Lemmy won’t be another Voat.
Oh yeah, definitely not. FOSS combined with federation means that even if the main instance and dev team are toast, someone else could pick up where they left off and run with it. Lemmy doesn’t necessarily need Lemmy.ml to function, which you couldn’t say about voat (or Reddit, for that matter.)
Unlikely. When users left Digg for Reddit the internet was smaller and the users more technically minded. And even then it was essentially just creating a new account. You need an one stop solution for users to migrate and federation by definition isn’t that. As a result discovery (and growth) is still hard even for Mastodon that’s been around for a while and it’s a relatively mature platform.
Before we had the fediverse - long before it - we had Usenet: people conversing globally in email-shaped units. It was shared and synched.
It was awesome. Questions answered, points debated, everything you wanted.
I don’t think the fediverse is a magical solution, but it does have a familiar feel to it. Not as good when it comes to spelling, but “it’s just the web,” so the rules are maybe different.
This is fine.
