Honestly, with all the shit this disgusting wannabe dictator has already gotten away with, I’ll hold on to celebrations until there is some kind of definitive verdict.
And dont get me started on the sentence even IF they convict him for something. He’s old, he’s rich, he probably still has some buddies in higher places - I’d be absolutely surprised if he would go to a genpop prison. - Even though thats exactly what he would deserve the most.
Charging him is still a big milestone, and setting the precedent that a former president can be charged is still important. But, yeah, sentencing will be the even bigger milestone.
What is crazy to me is that everyone is making it out like there HAD to be a precedent set, as if the baseline of being a U.S. citizen was not enough to already imply that they could/should be held accountable for breaking the law. That heavily implies what 99% of us already believed, there are CLEARLY two different standards for the rule of law, one for those with money and power, and another one for everyone else.
If he were a salary-slave like the rest of us (e.g. Snowden, Manning, Assange, …), there would be no case but definitely a verdict.
undefined> setting the precedent that a former president can be charged is still important
absolutely. It is already a win, but I believe the US really need the BIG win which would be to actually sentence him for the serious crimes he commited. Literally every other US citizen would be a prisoner long since for doing a microscopic part of what Trump did. The damage that one person did in 4 years, and not just locally in America but also internationally, is sheer unbelievable.
Sadly this is not Trumps achievement, but the rising hostility of a collapsing ecology coupled with late stage capitalism (read survival-of-the-fittest-mentality). We don’t talk much about it but most people dying in the climate crisis wont die of heatstroke but by wars. It is a struggle to keep your humanity in the process. Sadly there are an increasing number of people who stop bothering.
/edit grammar
You say a lot of sad truths there.
Of course it is not Trumps responsibility that our planet goes to shit. That people get more alienated from each other in general. That hate and fear spread like wildfires while empathy and humanity is in short supply.
But what IS Trumps accomplishment is that he is responsible for giving all those hateful, ignorant people a voice. He normalized saying shit that you’d only dared to share in the company of a few close friends in the past. He normalized the complete lack of empathy towards adversaries. He normalized acting like a complete moron against all evidence. He normalized distrust in science. He normalized abusing a political responsibility for selfpromotion. … I could go on.
But what is really grinding my gears behind that context is, that he normalized all that shit not only in the US, but basically worldwide due to the insane reach he had as US president. Parties in my home country are beginning to do exactly the same shit, not on full-removed level yet but we will get there.
/rant sorry
He used and improved on the populists playbook. All the neofascists worldwide seem to have one shared toolbox. Whereas liberals have more individualistic worldviews than active participants :(
Literally every other US citizen would be a prisoner long since for doing a microscopic part of what Trump did.
While I agree with you 99.9% and emphasize that I strongly so do… as much as the “both sides” bullshit is, in fact, bullshit… the one small bit of it that is true is that our politicians do get away with these things, although most of them are only doing a microscopic part of what Trump has done. But plenty of them - both parties, even the one I always vote for - act poorly and get away with it for any number of reasons, including the fact that we hesitate to go after politicians because it’s seen as political.
But let me finish by reiterating that Trump has been particularly and unprecedently egregious in his blatant criminal acts.
Beautifully said!
But what is the solution on the political front then? Is it to get new blood in while forcing the “old garde” out? How do you do that through brigades of lobbyists that prevent according laws from even existing? From the outside, the whole system seems pretty fucked.
You have two parties. Both are basically center right, one a bit more right than center maybe ( R ). The whole county is “gerrymandered” to the point where the actual voices of the citizens dont seem to matter anymore because some individuals decide for thousands.
While it would certainly be possible to run as an independent 3rd party, the cost of that would be prohibitively high because of the established apparatus the two main parties already have.
The leaders and high functioneers of the two main parties do their damndest to stay there because power is power and wealth is wealth.
Then there is a gigantic lobbying industry, so buying votes seems not only tolerated, but even encouraged. (sidenote: how the fuck did that even happen? not only in America ofc.)
And then there is the media. I do believe free speech is a good thing. But I honestly believe that what eg. Fox News is allowed to send is more like “incitement of the people” than “information”. And I know they get away with it due to calling it “entertainment”. Well, a good third of the country is certainly “entertained” to the point of starting revolts.
To me it seems, the only way would be to get in good (as in, ethically) new blood at the local level, feed and groom them, then rise to regional, then national level. While simultaneously waiting for all of the old garde to die. LoL.
I bet I missed a thousand things but that seems to be the gist of it to me. What are your all opinions?
*edited with paragraphs for readability and fixed the minor mistakes
98% conviction rate. That’s for all cases in general and not just the ones where the accused is on tape talking about the fact that he did the thing that’s in question.
It’s also not for cases where the accused is an immensely-wealthy former POTUS. I’ll be shocked if he suffers any substantial punishment.
I’ll be shocked if they even manage to assemble a jury, for that matter. Pretty much everyone in the country either loves him with religious fervor or despises him and everything he stands for.
Half of me wants to celebrate the small victories, but the other half says “wake me up when he’s behind bars and loses all of his appeals”.
Right? Call me a cynic but we all know nothing will actually happen. Dude was impeached twice and has been on record with plenty of crimes and he’s still running for president.
Pretty sure he can run for president from jail. From a. Jail cell he would still be the front runner and his base would be donating to him. So he could pardon himself
I’m cautiously hopeful. I didn’t expect him to be indicted in the first place.
It’s important to remember at this point that being bad at crime is not a valid defense.
If you mug a guy and immediately drop the wallet down a storm drain, you’ve still committed robbery. If you steal a car but lock the keys in it, it’s still theft. If you attempt to overthrow your own government and can’t organize people to actually pull it off, you’ve still committed treason.
Trump, despite being a career criminal, is still really shit at being a criminal. Some people will construe his failure to execute with innocence - it is not. It’s incompetence.
I’m oh so thankful Trump was both an incompetent criminal and an incompetent tyrant. Competence could have done unimaginable damage to the US and to the world.
Which is why Ron Desantis terrifies me. It doesn’t look good for him right now, but I wouldn’t have said things looked good for Trump in the summer of 2015 either. And all it would take is for one of these smart tyrants to win a freak election like 2016 and it would be Trump all over again, but much worse.
Trump is not necessarily the only corrupt president ever, he is just stupid enough to let it get out in public.
Not to say you are wrong with anything you’re saying… But I am asolutely confident that pigs will learn to fly before he gets convicted for treason. Did he commit it? A clear “yes” from me (non-American but I dont think that matters; it is basically an accepted fact among all that understand what “treason” usually means in a country-context). Will the prosecutors be able to prove it through a brigade of lawyers? I dont think so.
I’m not a lawyer elsewhere in the world, but the United States has a very specific and very narrow definition for what is considered “treason.” Article III, § 3 of the Constitution states that
Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort . . . .
I’m not an expert in this area, but from some legal analysis I’ve come across, another hurdle to convicting on treason is that in order to have an “enemy,” there needs to be an official declaration of war.
Yeah, people have been using the words treason / sedition / insurrection interchangeably. January 6th is obviously not treason, but it’s understandable that people meant something else.
Oh, absolutely! I was just trying to add to the discourse.
Hopefully his track record of losing in court holds up.
I’m so over this game show host.
Why did anyone ever give a fuck about this guy?
He was a bottom of the barrel choice for a gameshow and was super lucky to get the Apprentice.
Any fuckstick could’ve taken that role and run with it
Why did anyone ever give a fuck about this guy?
It’s amazing what 25 years of propaganda will do to people.
Hey now. Calling him a game show host is diminishing his filmography significantly. He was also an extra in Home Alone 2.
True. He also appeared on Saturday Night Live several times. Definitely presidential material.
The Apprentice did more to convince people he was a brilliant businessman than his work in business ever did.
I used to LOVE Celebrity Apprentice - - but I thought it was a ridiculous joke! I knew Trump was a loser in the businesses world for decades! And that stupid lookin hair and Long Island mobster taste level and way of speaking that he had… Then he’d roll out his dumb kids and they’d be all judgey and gloaty.
Could not believe other people took that seriously.
Part of me still doesn’t.
Totally agree, he’s become less and less relevant and I’m tired of hearing about him… sigh
I’m always hesitant to think anything is going to come out of developments like this - but something might actually come out of this.
yeah, this isn’t just some promise to “look into it”. he’s been indicted on some extremely serious federal charges… something IS finally happening. AT FUCKING LAST. Also, the DOJ will likely be prosecuted in the South Florida District, which means it wall all transpire in Trump’s back yard. He’ll hate that.
This may finally be what we’ve all been waiting for.
The mills of the gods grind slow, but they grind fine.
If it’s happening in Florida, won’t DeSantis be able to interfere?
Not a lawyer, but this is happening in federal court in Florida.
If it happened in state court in Florida, then supposedly the executive branch (which the governor leads) is not allowed to interfere, but it’s the same government of people who might know each other, so it’s possibly murkier.
But since it’s federal court, I believe if the state government started doing anything, it would be trivial for that federal circuit to consider it problematic and just move it to another state. So with that, I believe no, DeSantis couldn’t do anything even if he wanted to.
That, and they are now political rivals competing for the Republican nomination, so I doubt DeSantis minds much of what’s going on with this.
Let me know when he goes to jail.
Listening to Youtube, Beau of the Fifth Column, he says the Federal court he’s in now in Florida has a 92-94% conviction rate.
+1 for the Beau of the Fifth Column shoutout. If his listeners are here then I know I’m among good people.
This. Pretty much as soon as he starting running for president there has been talk about illegal operations and trials. But nothing has ever come of it. Even if there’s a 98% chance, I’ll only really care once a sentence is handed out.
Right? We’ve been hearing about how it’ll happen any day now for uh…6 years?
I’m of mixed mind about this.
Obviously the course of justice must go forward, and if prosecutors have a strong case, the should pursue it.
On the other hand, given all that he’s done to undermine democracy, subvert elections, destroy civility, erode democratic norms and traditions, and find common cause with hostile foreign powers, I’m not really keen on the idea that 30 years later, when people say Trump, they’ll think “oh, the guy who mishandled classified documents?”
It would be like if Ted Bundy got caught writing bad checks and was locked up for that.
They famously got Al Capone on tax evasion, and nobody thinks of him as “the tax cheat” first and foremost.
Besides, I suspect that this is a case where the floodgates are going to open up in terms of investigations and charges, once the first set sticks to him. There’s also the NY state fraud charges already filed, and the GA state election tampering investigation that is widely expected to lead to charges.
I suppose that’s a good point about Al Capone. Though he famously had people murdered in the streets and everyone knew it. With Trump, he has a whole army of deniers who will try bend history to make him a hero.
If he were indicted and convicted on his most serious crimes (subversion, bribery, attempted extortion of foreign heads of state, etc), it would be harder for his cultists to rewrite history.
Either way, I’m glad he’s facing the music on something, anything.
Alas, I think that history has some dismal lessons for us on how the die-hard MAGA crowd are going to keep carrying water for their guy, as (among other things) it’s been almost 160 years since the end of the Civil War and lost-causers are still out, loud, and proud. The best we can hope for is a thorough public reckoning for Trump via the court system, that will strip away as many of his persuadable low-information followers as possible.
I agree with this to a point. To me the biggest reasons to celebrate world be convictions for conspiracy and incitement of the January 6 insurrection, and election interference in Georgia (and possibly other states that fronted fake electors). Those actions were the most damaging to our democratic process.
However, these charges are also important because they serve as proof that no one in the United States is above the law. I have a glimmer of hope that accountability may help start to heal some of the damage our system has taken in recent years.
Al Capone got nailed because of taxes.
A charge is a charge at days end.
Trump will be remembered for much more. He is still the only twice-impeached President and one of very few to not win a second term. Jan 6 is going to be an event touched on in history books. Who knows what we’ll learn about the last few years in terms of Russia and disinformation and other corruption angles in the next few decades?
And don’t forget that there are more investigations still pending! This is just the most obvious, slam-dunk case out there so it moved the fastest.
Look at Al Capone as others said… and OJ. OJ got hit extra hard for the charges he finally got, since everyone knows they screwed up with the murder trial
This and Boris Johnson resigning makes my dick hard.
Can we try not to unnecessarily sexualize this? Too much of this and we’ll end up a reddit/twitter clone where people are just aiming for quick/easy zingers
Yeah… sorry that I posted something a bit against Beehaw’s ethos.
I am a British citizen. I have lived under this circus fiesta of a Conservative government for the past thirteen years and watched them slowly erode my rights. They have taken away so much from me and nothing has made my day more than watching Boris resign.
If anything he and his cronies should be in prison.
No worries and thank you for apologizing! You also deserve a right to vent against Boris, and I also happen to agree that he’s worthy of spite 😎
Eh, I think most people are sexual beings. Sexualizing things is a quick route to making things relateable, that being the case. Also, it’s funny.
I’m glad you enjoyed the comment, however it doesn’t fit super well within our ethos or what we’re trying to accomplish at beehaw, hence the reply.
Ah, of course. I was simply attempting to provide an answer to the question. Apologies.
This was such a nice exchange to see on my first day on Beehaw as a Reddit refugee. I think I picked the right instance. Minor disagreements handled with kindness and empathy without anyone blowing up? Ah so refreshing what is this feeling
I never realised how guarded I was in Reddit. I’m constantly taken by surprise here
I know, right? People… respectfully disagreeing with one another? Having a… healthy and civil discourse?
Holy Moses, I almost forgot this was possible online!
I’ve been exposed to enough unsolicited dicks in my life, personally. Sex is natural and erections are common, but I really don’t need to know about all of them. Some things are better kept private. I also don’t get aroused by every little thing, so all the hard dick comments are more confusing than anything. They’re not relatable to all of us.
I really can’t wait until we stop hearing about Trump.
I hate to say it, but I don’t think that day will ever come. Even in death, his die-hards will be slinging conspiracy theories about how he was assassinated or how he was jesus and he’ll ressurect soon to take on mega-hillary’s doomsday army.
Hopefully we can at least confine it to its own section of the internet though.
Damn, that disturbingly possible
It’s an extremely pessimistic future you paint, but you are probably right.
I need to figure out how to create conspiracy theories that are crazier than Qanon. Trump shit on the constitution and did ALL those illegal things to EXPOSE the cracks on the system. He’s MAGA one felony at a time. He took the pallets of classified files ON PURPOSE so he could sacrifice himself to start the fall of America and Armageddon. He’s bringing Jesus BACK.
surprised_pikachu.jpg
But no really, I get it may seem crazy to those on the right to indict a former president, but I would say it’s a good thing given one of the founding tenets of the United States was that the leaders were specifically NOT to supposed to be Gods.
I mean, could you imagine how fast someone other than Trump, like some pleb intern or something, would be thrown in federal prison if they took all of those documents?
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Damn that’s a great point.
I feel like everyone is so used to Trump violating one sacred cow after another that this isn’t even registering for a lot of the country.
Even folks who are anti trump have been conditioned to think he’ll just get away with this like always.
I’d argue that, like, most of the presidents who’ve existed should have been indicted on something or other.
I hope he’ll end up in an actual jail, but if he ever gets sentenced, I imagine it’ll be house arrest at Mar a Lago. He’ll keep living a comfortable life, just with somewhat limited freedom. His kids will continue his grifting empire and make sure daddy is able to keep influencing people.
that seems like the sad truth.
If he was restricted from speaking and posting anything publicly ever again, that would be a great boon to this country, even if justice wasn’t really served.
It really feels like we, as a country, are being dragged towards an ugly 2024 crescendo of the Trump era. This espionage case is going to coincide with the 2024 election.
The irony is that he is the one who signed a law making mishandling classified documents a felony.
Butter emails!!
*margarine men!
:)
A leopard ate its own face. That’s a new one.
This was too good to believe so I had to fact-check it. It’s true.
I’m getting a bit worried about Tuesday’s arraignment, as he’s pretty clearly calling for his cronies to show up to “support” him
I wonder if this time we’ll get a mugshot or perp walk out of it? Man, wouldn’t that be something?
It would be a weird catharsis for sure. Don’t get me wrong, I’m fully supportive of any and all charges against the cretin, but at the same time it’s a reminder of just how ridiculous and sad the past 10 years have been.
Yeah, I think just being able to see the actual visualization of someone not getting away with blatant crimes is very cathartic.
Looking at this as non-partisan as I can… if Hillary wasn’t convicted for essentially doing the exact same thing (and deleting the evidence…) then I really don’t see any way for Trump to be convicted either.
What she did is not at all “essentially doing the exact same thing”. At all. I’m not saying she’s not probably guilty of some crime at some point because most of our politicians are corrupt, but you are absolutely misinformed if you think she kept hundreds of classified documents, showed them off to people, and lied to federal investigators about it.
You’re right… it’s worse. She covered her tracks by deleting all the data then lying about it.
I assume you have evidence of this?
you’d think if she actually did commit a crime the FBI would have actually charged and prosecuted her, considering they found the accusations so serious they essentially–unintentionally or intentionally, depending on how cynical you want to view this–interfered with a democratic election in publicly announcing they were investigating just days before the 2016 presidential election. and yet!
In May, the State Department’s Office of the Inspector General released a report about the State Department’s email practices, including Clinton’s. In July, FBI director James Comey announced that the FBI investigation had concluded that Clinton had been “extremely careless” but recommended that no charges be filed because Clinton did not act with criminal intent, the historical standard for pursuing prosecution.[7]
A three-year State Department investigation concluded in September 2019 that 38 individuals were “culpable” in 91 instances of sending classified information that reached Clinton’s email account, though it found “no persuasive evidence of systemic, deliberate mishandling of classified information”.[15] Yet a September 2022 “Fact Checker” analysis by The Washington Post, which followed a tweet by Clinton claiming, “I had zero emails that were classified”, also quotes the same 2019 State Department report as having noted, “None of the emails at issue in this review were marked as classified.”[1]
No evidence of Clinton’s alleged misconduct was found. Plenty of evidence of Trump’s was found. That’s the difference.
Maybe it’s because Clinton is innocent. Maybe it’s because she did a better job covering her tracks. Who knows? Regardless, you need evidence to convict someone, and I hope I speak for us all when I say the alternative is much, much worse.
She willingly hid classified documents on a private server and wiped it with BeachBit so investigators couldn’t recover the evidence. Arguably that’s worse since she could also be charged with destruction of evidence. Come on now… either BOTH Hillary and Trump should be in prison or neither of them should be in prison. Any other interpretation is being willfully partisan.
Arguably that’s worse since she could also be charged with destruction of evidence.
but like. she wasn’t. she was investigated extensively–and that investigation probably cost her the presidency insofar as any singular thing can be blamed for her loss–and she wasn’t. do you have a reasonable explanation for why she’d not be charged with these things if she was actually as damned as you’re suggesting?
Because the FBI is very clearly politically motivated.
i’m… sure you recognize that this is quite literally a case where the facts disagree with your personal feelings. i also i don’t really know where we can go from here if your earnest belief is the FBI was “politically motivated” into clearing Hillary Clinton when it literally said her actions did not rise to the standard of criminality and again, their investigation may be the single biggest reasons she lost the presidency.
Please explain to me how hiding classified documents on a private server with the intent of shielding yourself from oversight and then deleting the evidence when investigators close in NOT enough to rise to the standard of criminality? Seriously, I’m so sick of every online forum being dominated by partisan-talking points. It’s abundantly clear that BOTH OF THEM BROKE THE LAW AND SHOULD BE PUNISHED. However the justice system is 100% broken when rules are applied unevenly. And our entire system is broken when partisan political figures actually cheer the rules being applied unevenly.
hiding classified documents on a private server with the intent of shielding yourself from oversight and then deleting the evidence when investigators close in
Prove it or it didn’t happen.
Seriously, I’m so sick of every online forum being dominated by partisan-talking points.
My partner in pasta, you are trying to dominate this forum with partisan talking points!
Seriously, I’m so sick of every online forum being dominated by partisan-talking points. It’s abundantly clear that BOTH OF THEM BROKE THE LAW AND SHOULD BE PUNISHED.
this is a good sign this won’t go anywhere productive, because your conclusion here can really only follow from the premise that the FBI got it wrong and there is simply no evidence that they did. it is not a partisan talking point to say this–and ironically, what you’re saying is. do you earnestly believe that you are in a better position to assess criminality here than the literal, actual Federal Bureau of Investigation, who spent a full year investigating whether a crime was committed? or better than the Trump-era Inspector General of the Department of Justice, who was critical of Comey’s public handling of the investigation but found no bias in the investigation’s course in either direction? if so then i can’t stop you from believing that, but nobody should take your position seriously and there’s no sense in debating it. you’d be arguing from a position grounded by nothing at that point.
What level of investigation that doesn’t end up charging Clinton with a crime would you accept?
Why are even we talking about someone that was never President, is not running for President, and is not currently serving in public office?
Investigate and prosecute all criminals. That includes Trump, regardless of who else it also includes.
You’re making some very serious accusations there. Before we proceed, I’m going to need to see some equally serious proof.
She did not do “essentially the same thing” for multiple reasons.
- The emails you’re referring to were not classified and went through proper process to get permission to be removed.
- Hillary has already been investigated and cleared, including investigations conducted by the Trump administration.
- Trump was given multiple opportunities to return documents. He kept lying and keeping things even after saying they’d returned everything. There are still classified docs that haven’t been found!
- The nature of the material is orders of magnitude different. Nothing that Hillary has been accused of destroying or storing improperly, even if those accusations were all true, even begins to compare to the sensitivity and importance of the kind of information Trump was hoarding.
- In addition to simply possessing the material he shouldn’t and refusing to give it back, he also breached security by showing sensitive information to people that weren’t allowed and, just at a practical level, has no reasonable need to see it in the first place.
