- cross-posted to:
- technology@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- technology@lemmy.world
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If they can’t sell it, then they’ll lower prices and people will be able to buy them.
I doubt the profits are so hard to come up with considering the wild CEO pay and record profits everyone’s bragging about.
Yeah lol… Why curb supply to artificially keep prices high? Sounds like a antitrust issue.
We can keep producing mass amounts of EV’s; we’ll just store them all in caves in middle America.
It’ll be like government cheese all over again!
I’ll take some of that government EV. Maybe fill it with government cheese too while they’re at it.
EV inventory is still moving fine. Tesla is sitting on a 16 day inventory while most legacy automakers are minimum a month… on ICE vehicles. Legacy auto isn’t producing enough EVs for them to stack up. They are losing boat loads of money per EV they make and will continue doing so until they hit scale from mass production… which won’t be anytime soon since they are all pulling back on production.
Just bought an EV from a local dealer. Went in on Saturday because they had a 2 month used listing on their website for about 10k under MSRP. They told me, oh no that sold, but please check out the new cars. I entertained them and told them they’d need to bring down the price 10k to get me to sign because it’s simply out of my price range. They also mentioned these things (ioniq 6) are selling extremely quickly and they only have a few on the lot.
They insisted and played games for a week, with offers OVER msrp, so I let them waste their time. They pushed me to come in, so as I was about to sign, I told them, actually, no. I need an offer 10k under MSRP or I’m leaving. At this point that was a 15k cut. They’ve now wasted a week of negotiation and suddenly found the used one I originally requested, but it was at their off-site lot.
We drove over there, and it was a large 5 story parking deckcompletely filled to the top. They even had cars parked in front of cars. They tried one last game and made me wait for 3 hours to get it out.
All that is to say, let the fuckers bleed. If they can’t afford Christmas, maybe they need to learn what the fuck capitalism really means. If they can’t afford new years, it’s time to make a new resolution and if they can’t afford spring break, it’s time to find a new job.
That’s straight up bait-and-switch! Good on you to hold them to the original advertisement.
they need to learn what the fuck capitalism really means.
Eventually, they’ll move inventory to other dealerships (and the scrapheap), fire-sale the rest, cover their losses, and make room for new models. Dealers are amazing at colossal inventory stunts like this.
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I’ve been eyeing an Ioniq 5 for about 18 months now and just checked local pricing again and they haven’t budged an inch on pricing (even now with 2024 models being sold with 2023 models left on the lot) nor are they even carrying inventory outside of the most expensive trim packages of Limited AWD. I’m interested in range, so I’m wanting a Limited RWD but they aren’t being stocked.
This article screams “I’m not doing my job and it’s all your fault!”
There’s a 2008 style crash coming in the credit market for cars. There’s a lot of subprime loans and a lot of car companies that got into financing that shouldn’t have. Wait til they really get squeezed. Who am I kidding tho, they will just ask for a bail out.
Some of us are still miffed about the 2008 bailouts, which ran entirely counter to the market forces rhetoric. Then the police turned off all the cameras and ran OWS off with riot squads.
No resolution was offered. even Dodd-Frank was reversed by Trump.
So you can expect a lot of civil unrest. It’s been due since the great depression, about a century ago.
When beater 20 year old trucks can’t even be found for <$10k, you know somethings gotta give
The dealer near me has added an extra 5 grand for market adjustment too.
Yeah, dealers around here have a huge markup over MSRP, “because there’s so much demand.”
Okay, I can wait.
Meanwhile, up here in Canada I put a down payment on an IONIQ 5 Ultimate Edition (Canadian equivalent of the US ‘Limited’ model) back in early April 2022, and it still hasn’t been ordered, because Hyundai decided to flood the US market while stiffing the Canadian market.
Hyundai (and other EV makers) are fucking around, and then blaming the market.
Yep sounds similar to what’s happening here. Since the car was first released you could spec one out with Limited RWD on Hyundai’s site but none existed in the entire country up until the last few months when they began trickling out. The website tells you that you can’t actually order or build the car you want and instead must visit a dealer and choose something among their inventory. I’m sorry but I’m not going to compromise on a major purchase like this for a brand new vehicle. Dealerships can eat a dick.
Jfc. I have a feeling this is going to become a much more common tale with high tech or precision manufactured goods, goods just being diverted from western markets to Group of Friends and Axis of Evil countries. Hopefully America doesn’t go full isolationist and we continue to seek global trade such as the trans pac trade agreement and similar trade agreements, keep the dollar nice and strong.
Issue is the dealership deals made with the auto manufacturers. Inventory on hand is often times (not including some of that bs that had dealerships marking stuff way over msrp) only set up to make the dealership a few thousand in profits.
For any major price reductions that are really needed, the auto manufacturers would have to be giving the vehicles to the dealerships for less money.
In other words, ford will have to drop prices for dealerships to drop prices.
This is bananas to me. The new model is out but last year’s model isn’t discounted? No wonder nobody likes dar dealers.
Saw one dealer do that to a Honda civic r then brag they got someone to actually pay it
That’s why they do it - they only work a fraction of the amount for the same profit by gouging the everliving fuck out of a small number of people.
Are you sure it wasn’t a Thundercougarfalconbird?
One word: thundercougerfalconbird
Shit dealers (and especially the sales people) tend to not at all be trained on how to sell these cars, and can be openly hostile towards people interested in them. EVs don’t make them as much money on service.
They can be trained all day every day, but if they know their profits are lower they’ll do anything they can to avoid having to work with EVs.
Yup something I keep getting into arguments about at work. Sales makes a mistake on their order. And I somehow as the tech end up sorting it. And that sales person keeps their entire sales commission. I’ve been telling mgmt forever take away the commission if there are reasonable timeframe issues or incorrect selections made by the sales agent. That will make them make sure they perfect it to get their pay.
Edit: I’d like to note I’m not even asking for the commission idc I just want sales to do shit properly. Lol
Took us forever and is still contested now and again, but we managed to force the sales process yo include product managers or owners. Without an estimate from them, which is created in coordination with the engineers and developers, no offer is being made anymore. Certain sales people are butthurt, because the estimated costs are often too high for our “price sensitive clients” as in: they don’t know how to sell our products on added value rather than on lower cost.
New car sales people do not give a single fuck about whether the car comes back for service. They get paid for selling cars, full stop. It’s possible that management is making ICE car sales commissions higher than EV; that would create an incentive to push ICE.
Commissions on EV sales for legacy automakers are dismal. None of the legacy automakers are making EVs at scale so they are losing 10s of thousands of dollars per EV they sell. Sales personnel aren’t moving them because they have no incentive to do so. Then these companies complain about how there is no demand while the EV sector is growing exponentially.
Tesla got to scale while legacy automakers were all laughing at them and now they have to compete by gaslighting the marketplace about how there is no demand.
I’ve been in an EV since 2020 and am never going back. When people start to wake up to how convenient and comfortable EVs are and stop buying into all of the negative media, it’s only going to snowball from there.
Are you able to take it for road trips, or do you primarily use it locally?
Not OP, but middle America resident here. Family vacationed in my Bolt EUV 2023 to Florida and had to plan activities at most of my charge stops because of how slow it DC fast charges (50kw). Mostly meals, but locating museums and other stuff wasn’t to hard. CCS network is not good, but it’s good enough with the right planning. Yeah road trips aren’t ideal in the Bolt, but since Ford didn’t make but 15 base model F-150 Lightnings and I wasn’t paying $30,000 over MSRP for 1 of 3 trucks in stock East of the Mississippi, I bought the Bolt instead planning to put my daughter in it when she’s ready to drive. I would’ve preferred utility and faster DC charging, but had to make do with what was available. Road tripping in a Tesla would be much easier and quicker.
Before you ask, no you can’t buy the base model Lightning direct from Ford. You can all other trims though.
They’ll also fail to mention that it’s the fastest growing new car segment. They may not me moving as many as they want, but they’re definitely moving.
I don’t know how it is in the us but here in Germany many (single-brand-)dealers are also licensed mechanics (for that brand) - and since EVs are taking much less repairing than traditional cars they are basically shooting themselves in the foot by selling them
Yeah, smthg smthg capitalism, smthg smthg free market, amirite?
Don’t forget “too big to fail.”
Straight up don’t give a single fuck what car dealers want. If they could all go out of business I’d be a happier person
Hi you pulled your car in, nothing is actually wrong with it but we looked at it from a distance and you need new air filters. That will be $375. I can make you a good price, I got it down to $373 because you’re a good money bag, I mean client.
Oh no! But won’t someone think about what the rent-seekers need? They worked hard for years to capture government regulation allowing them to be not only middle-men, but the only middle men allowed! How can they be expected to turn around and do what the government asks? This is a travesty!
I have hated every single car dealer I have dealt with, even my high school friend, but somehow my Nissan dealer was such a nice guy. He never found anything extra and always gave the straight forward solution, I only worked with him maybe 4 times for the 5 years I owned the car, but my bill was always <$100.
With 30% markups? No, you cannot.
Car Dealers: But what about my cut for bringing absolutely nothing to the table except being a con-man??
EVs require much less maintenance…dealers make much of their money from… maintenance! So they mark up the sale price to compensate for their lost revenue.
The solution is selling cars without dealerships, but our helpful state legislatures have made that illegal in many states.
And you need a safe place to charge it. Like a garage. I can’t afford a house so why would I buy a Nissan leaf (any cheap ev)? I can’t just run an extention cord out an open window. I also can’t just leave a wireless ground pad charger plugged in unattended outside. It’s all linked, nothing happens in a bubble.
I don’t know about other chargers but my Tesla charger is designed for outside use and can be configured to only allow my car to charge
The J1772 protocol is very basic and does not communicate any car identifier back to the charge unit, so it wouldn’t know what it’s plugged into (other than “something”)
And you just…trust other tenants to not just walk off with it?
I’m not worried about that, but I’ve seen some more cautious people get the cable underneath one of their wheels so that you’d have to move the car to take it. I’m quite sure you could also find another way of attaching or securing it to your car to make it fairly difficult to walk away with. The chargers also aren’t really worth much, so it seems unlikely that even someone desperate for cash would put much effort into it.
It helps to have your own home, and my area doesn’t have much vandalism
My charger is not detachable and is not especially valuable in itself, so I think of it more as vandalism than theft. Someone might vandalize my charger for the metal in the cable, I guess, but I also have an air conditioner compressor outside that I’d expect to be more valuable, if harder to walk away with. As a property owner, there’s always something that could be vandalized or stolen, but you need to balance your costs and convenience with what you expect from your neighbors
R u so paranoid that u think people are gonna steal it? I mean it might happen but I live in quite a rough place and I wouldnt even be worried abt that
Some people will steal anything they think they can sell for a couple bucks – particularly addicts. Some people just suck and will think the owner deserves to have it stolen for not securing it.
You’re banking on not a single one of those people seeing it and taking it. It’s not hard to sell it for cheap to someone who’ll list it on ebay.
I’ve had people attempt to Rob me in my own home, had bricks thrown in my window for literally no reason and had attepted night burglaries. Basically, I live in a rough area and I’d genuinely be suprised if someone stole an electric car charger. I’ve left much more valuable things outside by accident without them being stolen.
That’s a problem that is pretty easily solved. It can all be solidly affixed to the wall, locked to the vehicle, etc.
Yeah, I do wonder about the wisdom of locking it to the vehicle. I wonder if it would really deter anyone or if it just means my car is also vandalized for the scrap metal in the cable
I can’t just run an extention cord out an open window.
This is exactly what my neighbor does in his apartment.
But he has a driveway, so it’s not like he’s running it over the sidewalk or anything.
I smell a solution here: Dealers can offer free charging on their lot (plus optionally a mobile charging service that comes to you) for a monthly fee.
That way, you have a spot to charge in your city that’s never taken, and dealers can make the money they used to make on maintenance, therefore giving them the incentive to actually sell EVs.I don’t think this is what you meant, but you can charge an EV using a conventional wall outlet.They even have adapters that will allow you to plug it into a 240v outlet (like for a dryer or oven). I’m not saying this makes them more accessible, I still think the upfront cost of owning an EV is too high, but it is possible.,
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Other wires come in and out of your house. It’s not hard to drill a hole and insulate it.
The person you replied to said they cannot afford a house.
That means they do not own the building in which they live. In most apartment situations, it’s impossible to make infrastructure changes to the building.
Even if a person owns their home, they aren’t just “making a hole” and insulating it. Most home owners don’t know what’s in their walls, how to tell if a wall is safe to drill into, and even fewer know how to properly seal up those holes so they don’t wind up with water ingress when the cheap caulk they slathered on gets ruined by temperatures, the sun, or pests.
Much less that it’s also not merely ‘a cord’ unless you’re fine with being handicapped by slow charging. Installing faster chargers is beyond the scope of most home tinkerers - so that’s even more cost to set up.
With decent range, you can charge once or twice a week at a fast charger (while doing groceries or posting video games) or there are public chargers every couple of blocks. No need for a home charger (though it’s definitely more convenient).
there are public chargers every couple of blocks
You’ve never left the city, have you?
When you leave the city, you have your own driveway with your own charger
Your worldview is so narrow I don’t think you could thread a piece of fishing line through it.
Why can’t you run an extension cord out an open window? Do u not have windows or something
What if they live on the third floor of an apartment or have to park a block away? It’s not one size fits all.
Ask someone who lives closer and pay the extra it’s what I’d do
Maybe roll out some models people can afford? It’s all SUVs that start around $45k, but they built only a few of those base models. The ones actually available are premium trims that go for $65k and might peak around $100k. They were able to sell out for 6 months, and then that market was saturated. Now they stand around asking why nobody buys their cars.
Well, maybe if the price of cars wasn’t so fucking high, they’d be able to sell more of them. But nope, corps gotta get those record profits in, while underpaying every single [non-executive] worker.
Seems telling that they stated they’re having 100-200% employee turnover. Those are insane numbers.
But are they “we’re going to run out of workers” bad?
Eventually they will have no choice but to stop existing or cede worker demands
Give me a solid car with an electric motor, but all old-school buttons and knobs in the cabin instead of a touchscreen that will be out of date in 5 years and cost 10k to replace if the kids get their grimy hands on it.
My ideal electric car is basically an 85 GTI with an electric motor, but they’re all SUVs
Yeah, I’m disappointed that the evs that are actually so simple are micro cars with an in-town-only top speed and they’re only available in Europe.
Closest thing in the US is a Nissan Leaf with a battery upgrade.
And let me rent an extra battery pack for long trips. I only need 40 miles day-to-day, but I gotta go 300 for Christmas.
PHEV is the answer! Give us options, doesn’t have to be one of the other; Chevy Volt had it for a bit, but it must not have been profitable because now I can’t find a PHEV that gets more than 30 miles on a full charge!
I don’t want to buy the oversized battery, and I don’t really want to buy the on-board generator/charger of PHEV. I only want to own as much vehicle, and incur the manufacturing carbon debt, to meet 95-98% of my needs. Make it easy to rent, borrow, or share the extra capacity for the last 2%, and the world will be a lot less wasteful. I can see renting a trailer with enough generator to replace a series hybrid. I can see renting surplus battery. And those rental services can be a revenue stream to replace dealerships lost service centers.
Clearly, though, I’m a minority of consumers, and no manufacturer actually wants to cater to me and my twelve friends.
Your use case is very reasonable, and a lot of people want it. But it’s a big challenge from a technical/engineering standpoint. You know how a replacement battery pack for an EV costs like $8k and has a range of 300 miles? Your rental battery would cost at least that much, plus whatever costs are involved to make it portable, and integrate it’s usage into your existing EV. Then the rental places would need to have massive charging capabilities for when people stop in to swap their empty rental battery for a full one, since it still only has a range of 300 miles (4-5 hours of freeway driving)
I actually think there will be improvements on the fast charging front. You can already see this idea in other places. Many heavy duty trucks have 2 fuel tanks. You can fill them with 2 standard pumps running simultaneously, effectively giving you double the refueling speed. Some phones have dual batteries for the same reason.
The honest answer for right now, which will likely cause an emotional response, is to just rent a different car for these rare needs. Or plan around chargers en route, which will likely be a frustrating experience.
The savings you’ll get day-to-day will more than cover your rental fees.
You’re right. I got my current (smallish) car with the explanation that I could just rent a truck when I want to haul hobby materials, but the practical inconvenience of that rental has meant that I just don’t, and consequently haven’t done any big hobby projects in years. When I imagine renting an EV booster battery, I imagine it being easy, convenient, and reasonably priced, unlike literally everything else in the automotive market.
And there is different emotional content in using your own vehicle vs any alternative.
You know there are absolutely zero controls on privacy for Tesla telemetry data. It’s wild to me that a car that is really quite a bit simpler than an ICE car is required to be perpetually online. That said, I saw there’s a company trying to offer electric retrofits for ICE vehicles, primarily classic cars, but that’s likely to be closest to what you want.
You got a link or company name? That sounds very interesting for classic cars.
Zero Labs. They’ve got a few models for sale but are really looking to raise capital.
Looks like they’re only doing it to huge cars like Land Rovers and Ford Broncos, which is unfortunate.
It’s wild to me that a car that is really quite a bit simpler than an ICE car is required to be perpetually online.
Well it would be wild if it was true. Car drives just fine without an internet connection.
there are absolutely zero controls on privacy for Tesla telemetry data
Another wild claim, what is it based on I wonder?
This made the rounds recently. Tesla is bad (just like all car companies), but not quite that bad. They do have stated controls.
I just had my screen replaced because the L in LCD started oozing all over. It was $2200 which didn’t include the radio that cost an extra $500. So, not 10k, but not cheap either. On the plus side, outside of New tires, that’s the only thing I’ve done to the car in 8 years.
How about people pay attention to local elections? The reason we are not seeing funding for EV infrastructure is most small towns can be bought by the local dealership family who would rather see continued profits from ICE vehicle maintenance and not investments into EV infrastructure, then it conviently sides with this bullshit narrative of nothing can be sold and we have no infrastructure so give up on EVs.
I don’t see any problem with removig car dealers. Just phase out of existence no one will miss them.
Maybe it’s because cars suck now: filled with spyware, massively complex systems that aren’t better at doing car things than similar systems in the 90s, and with a price tag that considers this garbage as worth something to the consumer.
I sincerely wish that were the case. The proliferation of Ring doorbells, Alexa speakers, and overall lack of tech literacy really hampers any signs of general outcry. Our collective screech barely registers as a whimper in the grand scheme.
I mean that’s my disappointment with the new Tacoma that’s coming out soon. It’s great that they have a hybrid now, but it’s full of electronic crap now that used to be mostly isolated to certain components.
Now the entire gauge cluster is a screen, it’s sad.
I was legitimately going to buy a brand new one in the next year or two when I’m back in the US, and I’ve never bought a new car. now I guess I have to get a 2023 model or earlier. I bet any of the 2016-2023 generation lasts longer than the 2023-2030ish generation.
Honestly I don’t even like trucks but the biggest pull for me was that the Tacoma was still pretty old school for a new vehicle, and that it could go anywhere kinda rough.
Now the entire gauge cluster is a screen, it’s sad.
This is a really interesting take to me because I’m excited for all the physical displays to be replaced by screens. Because once they’re screens, the new CarPlay can take them over and give an actually good user experience compared the incredible dog shit quality in-car experience that the manufacturers provide.
I wanted to like the Tacoma but I owned a Corolla and it’s the same size inside. Not like in a “this is a truck” way either I mean the cabin is like a compact car. Seating position is just awful. I’m tall but this isn’t a tall thing even.
Thing about the Corolla is it had 41” legroom in front at least. More backseat room too.
There was another thread here on Lemmy where I talked about how my parents installed a wired intercom in our house so they wouldn’t have to yell at me when they wanted something and someone replied that they just use Alexa to do that and I wanted to hit my forehead on my keyboard.
The same thing happens in ICE vehicles. The issue here is that they marked them up an insane amount, refuse to learn about them, and actively discourage people from buying them.
Car dealers are just a legal & institutionalized cartel.
If they can’t sell them then let companies sell without a dealership! Sorry your scammy business isn’t working anymore either clean your nose or get out
The infrastructure isn’t there. I live in an apartment (and likely will for the foreseeable future), and there are no chargers here.
The option of a (practical) electric car does not exist for a sizeable portion of the country. The fact that they’re really expensive is actually secondary considering they’re just a non-starter without the infrastructure.
I think this is ignoring the fact that the average americans daily milage is so little (around 30 miles)that an electric car can be topped up off a Level 1 charger. Even more if you can get a level 2 charger.
So for most americans average driving, an electric car would be a boon, even if no independent in the wild infrastructure/charging facilities existed.
OK, but if you live in an apartment, where do you plug in that level 1 charger?
I would love to consider getting an electric car whenever I can afford a new(er) vehicle. But there’s no way my landlord will let me run an extension cord from my 3rd story apartment around the building and around the pond between my building and the parking lot. It’s sad that an EV would be so great, but its really a mark of privilege to own both in initial affordability and just having the place to park and charge one. Not that it matters, I can’t afford anything other than my 24 year old Honda.
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an extension cord.
This is just not a practical day-to-day solution. Most people don’t have a parking spot right outside their window that they can reliably use for charging. There is often a sidewalk that the cord would have to cross, creating the opportunity for someone to trip and sue you. There is often landscaping between buildings and parking, creating the opportunity for the landscapers to accidentally run over your cord with their lawnmower. Some asshole is going to walk by and unplug your car and then you may be late to work.
Sure, you could it, but it’s not a practical solution.
I mean, sure, when you dont want to do it, its easy to really cook up a convuluted scenario to justify not doing it.
I’m going to borrow a picture that somebody else posted. https://www.rent.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/apartment_building.jpg
Do you think its practical for extension cords to run from that building to most of the parking spots? It would be a spiderweb of a tangled mess.
Oh god, the horror of 6 cords. You’re right, the world cant support such madness.
if you don’t like EVs, thats fine. Don’t gotta keep playing this game of “UNLESS ITS 1000% PERFECT, WE CANT HAVE IT”.
I’m going to borrow a picture that somebody else posted. https://www.rent.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/apartment_building.jpg
Do you think its practical for extension cords to run from that building to most of the parking spots? It would be a spiderweb of a tangled mess.
Level 1 charging works off of a regular power outlet
And if you only have street parking?
Is there a power outlet in the street? If not, it would be hard to use level 1 charging and wouldn’t really be relevant to bring up, would it?
Let me summarize the stream of these comments for you, as if it was a conversation between two people.
A)There isn’t infrastructure for electric cars, particularly for those living in an apartment.
B)Level 1 charging is good enough for most people.
A)How is a person who lives in an apartment going to use a level 1 charger?
B)You just use a regular outlet.
A)But I live in an apartment, there is no regular outlet near my car.
B)(this is your comment BTW)Well then why did you bring up level 1 charging?
You’re a moron.
It’s kind of disturbing that they can’t follow this.
Some apartments have outlets in them, this is a simple solution for those people. Not every solution will solve every problem for every person. Only a moron would expect that.
TBH if your daily mileage is only 30 or so miles, then you can do all of that on an electric bike.
Electric bikes suck in the Wisconsin winter
I hear that biking in the snow isn’t actually bad. This is hearsay because it doesn’t snow much where I am.
You wear your winter coat and snow pants, and get studded tires.
You don’t have to worry about getting stuck going up an icy hill (because if its too icy to drive up, you can walk up it), granted not likely to be a problem in Wisconsin.
You don’t have to worry about getting stuck due to low clearance (like the snow between the ruts that hatchbacks and minivans get stuck on) because you can just pick up your bike.
Also if a pedestrian slips while crossing the road, you probably won’t kill them if you can’t stop in time.
I guess the wind could be intense. What’s your experience been?
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You should be able to, but US non-car infrastructure is so abysmal that there’s a strong chance you can’t safely unfortunately
Ignoring how that would work even under ideal circumstances, do you propose that large portions of the country use a bike when it’s below freezing? Because that’s a non-starter, and no one will take you seriously.
I currently bike or walk most places, but I also know that’s not a common situation in the US. For me the car is only used for anything far enough away.
I replaced 90% of my driving with an electric golf cart
Even worse, my former apartment complex had EV chargers that you paid for at 8x the rate of electricity making it more expensive than gas. There were no other options to charge your car. But when I locked in my lease all they advertised was that they had EV chargers. Not the credit card required or price.
And you think this was an accident? Car companies have been stalling every charging station they can. This is why Tesla went on their own.
Oh I don’t doubt there is a lot of dirty pool involved. Tesla’s hands are nowhere near clean either. But it doesn’t change the fact that, at the end of the day, shit’s not anywhere near ready.
This is why I have a hybrid and not an EV.
This isn’t an unsolvable problem though given demand.
Assuming you’re in an appartment with dedicated parking, it’s not crazy difficult or expensive to install some lvl 2 chargers, the real blocker here is demand, if residents aren’t demanding it the building isn’t going to supply it.
If you’re stuck with street parking, you’re right, your use case isn’t best suited for EVs right now. But this case also isn’t a huge portion of vehicle owners, so it doesn’t seem like justification to stop rollout.
Ignorant on the levels, but I thought I read it WAS crazy to install all that infrastructure. Gas stations apparently struggle to get it done.
Maybe I read about the next level
Level 3 fast chargers (the kind you would want at a gas station) are legitimately difficult to arrange infrastructure for in some areas. Multiple 200+ kW loads are not something that many properties are wired for. It’s an enormous investment.
Level 2 chargers are basically trivial to install in comparison and can be supported just about anywhere with two phase service. They’re much slower than level 3 chargers, but are a great option for any place that people stop with the intent to stay for an hour or more. Workplaces, restaurants, shopping malls, etc.
Ty for education
I’d be curious to see real stats about how many folks in the US have a car and any practical access to a charger, even if somehow we convinced landlords everywhere to install chargers or the govt footed that bill entirely. I suspect it isn’t the minority you think given the current housing situation in the country.
Even so, we seem agreed that a massive infrastructure improvement would be needed to make this at all practical. It looks a lot like pie in the sky to me.
Of course the elephant in the room is that the battery technology is the more overarching issue. I don’t need a gas station in my parking lot because it takes me about 3 minutes to fill the car with gas. If it took 3 minutes to charge an electric car, they would be closer to parity. Currently they are far, far away.
Is it possible to get around some of that issue by changing tactics / planning ahead for longer trips and trying to secure a full charge by then? Possibly, but not practically. I’d also argue that technologies that ask people to change established behavior without benefit tend to fail (and there is no direct benefit to the consumer with an electric car).
I’m not sure I agree there is a massive infrastructure need. The average American could keep their EV charged today with a standard 120v outlet.
I don’t have numbers for how any car owners park their car overnight somewhere that has access to a 120v plug, but it would surprise me if it was less than 50%.
Batteries are fine today and I lay getting better, fast charging is nice to have, but definitely not needed.
65.8% of Americans own their house. EV sales rates aren’t anywhere near that. Lack of being able to charge at home is not the primary issue.
I’d be curious to see how many apartment dwellers are buying brand new vehicles as well. I suspect it’s at a rate lower than home owners.
While your larger point is valid, it’s missing some important context. I haven’t seen the data, but I suspect that it says 65% own (vs renting) their primary residence, not that 65% own a single family house suitable for home charging. This figure would include houses with street parking only, off-street parking unsuitable for charging (e.g. carport, or a detached garage without electricity), and critically, condos. Condos often have the exact same restrictions as apartments, even if you own the living space. In the opposite direction, it doesn’t count the rented homes where you could charge.
Now, all of that being said, you are correct that it’s not the only (or perhaps even the biggest) obstacle to moving entirely to EVs. Countless gas vehicles are sold daily to people that could absolutely charge at home. But it does freeze out a large market segment, whom I suspect are more interested in EVs in the first place.
You don’t need to have chargers on site. You just need charging locations that are fast enough. Teslas already charge from empty to almost full in about 15 mins.
It’s 0 to 200 miles in 15 minutes in ideal conditions. Really good, but no reason to set unreasonable expectations.
In my experience, it’s closer to 45 minutes to go from 15-20% to 90% in my Model 3. The supercharger’s fastest charge is when the battery is less than half full. After that, it slows down to protect the life of the battery pack. If all you need is enough charge to get home to your own charger, it’s entirely possible that you can be in and out in 10-15 minutes.
I loved my Volt… Charged overnight in a normal 110 outlet got me the 43 miles to work and back (after about year 5, not quite the whole way) but I could still decide to go on a 600 mile road trip spur of the moment. Had to give up the 2014 in 2023 when a full charge wouldn’t go 20 miles. ☹️
There is no PHEV comparable now, though! Made the switch back to full ICE and I hate it.
I have a 2017 bolt EV - bought used, not one that is advertised as having great mileage even in 2017. I routinely take it 400-500mi plus drives with one or maybe two charge stops for vacation and family trips. Middle of ME to the southern tip of NJ. My home is somewhere in the middle.
Charged off my 110 outlet since I got to car (about 4 years) up to last month Oct 2023 when I got a 220v outlet installed as part of another project. One charge was enough for the week. Occasionally I’d plug in at work or at a friends. Worst case actually pay $5-9 for a DC quick charge if I know I’m doing a long drive. All that is way easier if you just have a place to plug in consistently at home.
I don’t get the negativity most people have twords EVs. Everyone is astounded when I say I just plug it into the wall and have to plan longer trips slightly more, like that’s not news anymore.
And there’s a bunch more DC chargers than when I first started driving an EV - so it’s wayyy easier for new folks to adopt.
It sounds like you could’ve taken that car back for a warranty claim… depending on your state it should be able to do about 30 miles after either 8 or 15 years, and your was doing less than 20 at 9 years… I assume you were in an eight year state?
Having said that, draining the battery fully every day will absolutely kill it. It’s not good for the battery to be empty that often… an EV with a 300 mile range and the same driving pattern could probably go well over a million miles on the original battery. That’s far longer than the typical life of a modern ICE engine (unless its an engine specifically intended for commercial fleets - those last longer).
Of course, a battery that can do 300 miles is very expensive.
This is the real reason I think high mileage batteries are important… I think most people don’t need 300 miles, but a battery that can do that can also be charged to 60% or 80% and charged before going below 20%, which should dramatically improve its life (saving the full capacity for the once in a while longer trips)
Tesla recommends (I think it’s the default?) limiting charging to 80% and when they drain as low as 20% they shut down to protect the battery. You’ll need to call a tow truck unless there’s a major emergency/evacuation, then they take advantage of the car’s cellular connection to unlock the last 20% and allow drivers to use the whole battery.
I don’t think the Volt did that. Maybe newer (and more expensive…) GM EVs do though.
when they drain as low as 20% they shut down to protect the battery
Haha what? No that is some serious misinformation. A Tesla might go into a slumber mode when parked for a while, this only means it takes a few seconds to start instead of the instant response if you parked for a short while. , but it will not shut down until sometime AFTER reaching 0%.
Also, there are now two types of batteries for Tesla cars.
The Tesla Model 3 RWD’s battery pack uses the LFP chemistry which Tesla recommends charging to 100% at least once per week. Tesla recommends setting the charge limit to 100% for daily use.
The Tesla Model 3 Long Range and Performance variants uses a different chemistry referred to as NMC. The Tesla Model Y owner’s manual recommends setting the charge limit to 90% for daily use. This will minimise degradation and preserve the longevity of the battery.
The Prius Prime isn’t too different, in that it’s also a compact PHEV although the battery range is a bit shorter.
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Hyundai Ioniq PHEV is I would say even better.
That’s the problem. They’re basically totaled once the battery is worn out.
Well Ive not quite made it to 100000mi on the odometer. It’s likely I’ll be able to take it to 200000 with the same sort of range I have now… So that’s about 10-12 years of life for me without a worry. Maybe it goes more, maybe I get in an accident before 2029 (10years of use and I’ll be around 150000mi or less).
Ive heard people are scared of the batteries. But that fear doesn’t match what I’ve experienced. I had a recall on mine that was not big deal. it’s really not as concerning as it’s made out to be. I’m mostly hoping there’s a better recycling system in place when I do actually need a new battery, just show I know the old one is taken care of properly. But likely the rest of the car will wear out first.
Ps I don’t drive much during the week, longer weekend drives, and then long drives a few times a year.
I’ve read that used EV batteries that aren’t good for their original purpose anymore can be used for solar storage, so, not recycling but reusing.
I mean… Same with a gas engine for most cars. And the batteries are expected to last about as long as a gas engine.
You can replace parts on a gas engine. There’s a lot more repairability there.
Batteries also have a shelf life.
With that said, e-bikes with a supply of batteries and a means of charging them with portable solar panels are probably better for an extended disaster situation.
I have a Tesla because my VW engine died just out of warranty and a junkyard engine was $5k, a new one was $11k, just for the engine, no labor or extraneous parts.
The world where you can afford an engine replacement but not an electric car is pretty small.
Yea those prices are high. You can typically get a rebuilt engine installed for between $2500-5k but you have to go to a shop that specializes in rebuilds. A regular mechanic can’t do that type of work and will just be looking for something they can drop in.
Batteries are often the part that has the longest warranty. It’ll be a while before it’s your problem, and even then, costs will probably be down by a lot.
That person had a PHEV (2014 Chevy Volt)… It was not totalled, they can still drive it on gas, and the battery is only 16.5kwh, so if you wanted to replace it (though you don’t need to), its only like $5k.
So true! ☹️
