It’s a paradox for sure. I have this exact thought everytime I do something I think of as morally good. Then I’m bashing myself for thinking that way, and then I wonder if I need to become a monk or something to completely rid myself of that initial thought. Then I forget about it until it happens again.
I had a teacher in highschool that presented the philosophical argument that no one ever does anything that is truly selfless. The argument was exactly what you mentioned, that if someone is doing something that appears selfless, they’re actually doing it in hopes that someone notices and thinks more highly of them.
This would have been an interesting rebuttal to the argument. If you return a shopping cart in an empty parking lot, does that make you selfless? Kind of like a modern version of a tree falling in a forest…
i don’t think true selflessness exists, but i also think that is completely and utterly irrelevant.
Everything is fundamentally fueled by selfishness, but it seems to be a fundamental truth of the universe that cooperation is optimal for an individual if they can achieve it.
for example cooperation is the thing that allows us and animals like ants to be so hilariously more successful than other species, and on an ecosystem level everyone is cooperating since their chemical structures are compatible. If something were to evolve to use mirrored sugar (which is incompatible with the version of sugar molecules we use) then they’d have nothing but themselves to eat and thus promptly starve.
That just reminded me of the book Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind. The author talks about how we beat out other Homo species not due to our intelligence or our strength, but due to our ability to cooperate among large groups. If you took 10 humans and pitted them in a fight against 10 Neanderthals or even 10 chimps, we would lose. But if you took 200 humans against 200 of them, we would win every time.
i would caution against taking that as gospel, afaik we don’t really know why other species died out yet, and we have very clear evidence that our species interbred a whole heck of a lot.
it’s probably a whole host of reasons that led to us surviving alone, including stuff like being able to survive on very little food, and hey maybe we to some degree simply interbred to the point that their species dissolved into ours.
imagine being a buff neanderthal and encountering these strange lithe people with less hair and suddenly that pretty girl in another neanderthal tribe you had your eyes on is completely forgotten.
Honestly unless you believe there is inherent good in doing that (religion mostly, morality for some) then no. It doesn’t make sense to work for free, to not have returns.
If recognition is a form of payment then good on some people, though I personally think recognition can be a drug, and religion justifies my good actions for me much better.
Point is keep on doing good, and maybe consider that the slightly tidier and cleaner space you leave was worth the effort. Surely someone would have seen you and thought “damn, I should do that next time”
It doesn’t make sense for the individual unless you consider that they live in a society. You would be annoyed to have to retrieve a wayward cart and by returning your cart you enforce the expectation and social pressure on others to do the same. I don’t think it’s selfless to treat your environment with respect, it’s in your own best interest most of the time.
They say that it’s the ultimate test of selflessness, because it doesn’t benefit you and there’s no recognition for it.
But does it cancel out the selflessness if I’m now thinking that every time I return a cart? “If someone sees me, they’ll know how selfless I am…”
That’s why shopping carts in Germany are coin operated.
You only get your coin back, if you return the cart.
I made a bypass tool so I can know that when I return them it’s due to moral superiority and not base greed.
I take the ones people haven’t bothered to lock back in. My moral superiority knows no bounds.
Oh yeah? well!
Sometimes I round them all up, take the coins, and donate them anonymously to orphans with cancer.
I just put in a washer and leave it in there
While that is true they seem to die out. Older Shops still have the but during modernisation works, they usually get swapped out
Our nearby store just used inserts that disabled the feature. The chains are still on.
Well you gotta have the chain. What else are you going to fidget with when at the store?
Then one will never truly know if one is selfless or not as they now have an incentive to return it.
It’s a paradox for sure. I have this exact thought everytime I do something I think of as morally good. Then I’m bashing myself for thinking that way, and then I wonder if I need to become a monk or something to completely rid myself of that initial thought. Then I forget about it until it happens again.
I had a teacher in highschool that presented the philosophical argument that no one ever does anything that is truly selfless. The argument was exactly what you mentioned, that if someone is doing something that appears selfless, they’re actually doing it in hopes that someone notices and thinks more highly of them.
This would have been an interesting rebuttal to the argument. If you return a shopping cart in an empty parking lot, does that make you selfless? Kind of like a modern version of a tree falling in a forest…
i don’t think true selflessness exists, but i also think that is completely and utterly irrelevant.
Everything is fundamentally fueled by selfishness, but it seems to be a fundamental truth of the universe that cooperation is optimal for an individual if they can achieve it.
for example cooperation is the thing that allows us and animals like ants to be so hilariously more successful than other species, and on an ecosystem level everyone is cooperating since their chemical structures are compatible. If something were to evolve to use mirrored sugar (which is incompatible with the version of sugar molecules we use) then they’d have nothing but themselves to eat and thus promptly starve.
That just reminded me of the book Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind. The author talks about how we beat out other Homo species not due to our intelligence or our strength, but due to our ability to cooperate among large groups. If you took 10 humans and pitted them in a fight against 10 Neanderthals or even 10 chimps, we would lose. But if you took 200 humans against 200 of them, we would win every time.
i would caution against taking that as gospel, afaik we don’t really know why other species died out yet, and we have very clear evidence that our species interbred a whole heck of a lot.
it’s probably a whole host of reasons that led to us surviving alone, including stuff like being able to survive on very little food, and hey maybe we to some degree simply interbred to the point that their species dissolved into ours.
imagine being a buff neanderthal and encountering these strange lithe people with less hair and suddenly that pretty girl in another neanderthal tribe you had your eyes on is completely forgotten.
Honestly unless you believe there is inherent good in doing that (religion mostly, morality for some) then no. It doesn’t make sense to work for free, to not have returns.
If recognition is a form of payment then good on some people, though I personally think recognition can be a drug, and religion justifies my good actions for me much better.
Point is keep on doing good, and maybe consider that the slightly tidier and cleaner space you leave was worth the effort. Surely someone would have seen you and thought “damn, I should do that next time”
It doesn’t make sense for the individual unless you consider that they live in a society. You would be annoyed to have to retrieve a wayward cart and by returning your cart you enforce the expectation and social pressure on others to do the same. I don’t think it’s selfless to treat your environment with respect, it’s in your own best interest most of the time.
Oh, I make sure they see me.