English phonology, American English dialects’ (and other dialects’) /r/ is usually pronounced retracted, post-alveolar/pre-palatal (usually bunched/molar), transcribed something like [ɹ̠ᶹ], so it causes alveolar consonants in the same cluster to retract/palatalize, usually into a post-alveolar affricate ([d͡ʒ] – the “j” sound for voiced stop /d/, [t͡ʃ] – the “ch” sound for voiceless stop /t/, [ʃ] – the “sh” sound for voiceless fricative /s/). The term would be assimilation (of place of articulation).
You can see the same thing with words like “tree” /tri/ -> [t̠ʃɹ̠i] or even “street” /strit/ -> [ʃt̠ɹ̠it]
Would explain simpler but can’t, break ends now, just know its because consonant pronounced in different place in mouth is conforming to being pronounced in the same place in mouth as other consonant that is right beside it (like with “in-” vs “im-”, “impractical”, which notably isn’t “inpractical”, or “incandescent” which notably isn’t “imcandascent”, or “indecisive” etc. etc.)
They made almost no attempt to put it in layman’s terms, which means as an explanation it is not very helpful unless you already know enough about the topic to not need to ask about it in the first place. Correct and unhelpful. But I guess they were busy.
What would be a good place to start with IPA? Going off Wikipedia’s pages on the matter is like Force’s comment, well-intentioned but not a great intro as you flit back & forth across the tables making sense of it.
I also vaguely remember a similar experience with physical dictionaries, which I think tend to have some kind of IPA (or related) pronunciation guide in them. It’s been awhile since I’ve used one though, hence the foggy memory, and some online dictionaries seem to have given up on showing IPA pronunciation guides.
I understood it, after I googled a lot of what they said. And I’m not trying to give them shit, they made an effort to be helpful, it just wasn’t really.
I mean the quality of an explanation is a matter of opinion. I already admitted it was a technically correct explanation, but I stand by my opinion. You can disagree but have failed to convince me to think otherwise.
Do you honestly see zero value in finding information, that when you couldn’t understand, you ended up educating yourself about, finally learning something new?
Far from useless, and certainly many people here did understand straight away, as well.
You are being rude and unpleasant, as well as missing the point of what I am saying. Learning is literally my favorite thing to do with my free time and “finally learning something new?” Is a condescending way to ask what you asked.
Apparently you have never taken a badly taught class or anything similar and you simply have no concept of what it is I’m trying to talk about. Teaching in a complete way that is understood and isn’t excessively verbose takes skill, time, and effort. Their comment wasn’t wrong but it was not high quality teaching. It was obviously confusing for many people who commented and upvoted about it, and barring anything else, that is enough evidence to show the explanation is imperfect.
I don’t want to talk about this anymore and I have no more desire to give you any more of my time in particular.
Okay, I think I get it. When I say “dr-” the r is made with the tip of my tongue just behind my front teeth, but when I say “jr-” (like in badger), the r is made with the middle of my tounge in the middle of my mouth. Neat!
English phonology, American English dialects’ (and other dialects’) /r/ is usually pronounced retracted, post-alveolar/pre-palatal (usually bunched/molar), transcribed something like [ɹ̠ᶹ], so it causes alveolar consonants in the same cluster to retract/palatalize, usually into a post-alveolar affricate ([d͡ʒ] – the “j” sound for voiced stop /d/, [t͡ʃ] – the “ch” sound for voiceless stop /t/, [ʃ] – the “sh” sound for voiceless fricative /s/). The term would be assimilation (of place of articulation).
“Dragon” /dræ.gən/ -> [dɹ̠æ.ɡɪ̈n] -> [d̠ʒɹ̠æ.ɡ(ɪ̈)n]
You can see the same thing with words like “tree” /tri/ -> [t̠ʃɹ̠i] or even “street” /strit/ -> [ʃt̠ɹ̠it]
Would explain simpler but can’t, break ends now, just know its because consonant pronounced in different place in mouth is conforming to being pronounced in the same place in mouth as other consonant that is right beside it (like with “in-” vs “im-”, “impractical”, which notably isn’t “inpractical”, or “incandescent” which notably isn’t “imcandascent”, or “indecisive” etc. etc.)
This explanation makes me feel stupid
They made almost no attempt to put it in layman’s terms, which means as an explanation it is not very helpful unless you already know enough about the topic to not need to ask about it in the first place. Correct and unhelpful. But I guess they were busy.
Schools need to teach IPA. It’s basically a universal language. (Lol plz dont hit me)
What would be a good place to start with IPA? Going off Wikipedia’s pages on the matter is like Force’s comment, well-intentioned but not a great intro as you flit back & forth across the tables making sense of it.
I also vaguely remember a similar experience with physical dictionaries, which I think tend to have some kind of IPA (or related) pronunciation guide in them. It’s been awhile since I’ve used one though, hence the foggy memory, and some online dictionaries seem to have given up on showing IPA pronunciation guides.
I guess I sounded angrier than intended or something. I just didn’t want @glibg10b@lemmy.ml to feel stupid.
He can explain it to you, but he can’t understand it for you. /s
I understood it, after I googled a lot of what they said. And I’m not trying to give them shit, they made an effort to be helpful, it just wasn’t really.
But it was. And educated you as well. Win-win.
I mean the quality of an explanation is a matter of opinion. I already admitted it was a technically correct explanation, but I stand by my opinion. You can disagree but have failed to convince me to think otherwise.
Do you honestly see zero value in finding information, that when you couldn’t understand, you ended up educating yourself about, finally learning something new?
Far from useless, and certainly many people here did understand straight away, as well.
You are being rude and unpleasant, as well as missing the point of what I am saying. Learning is literally my favorite thing to do with my free time and “finally learning something new?” Is a condescending way to ask what you asked.
Apparently you have never taken a badly taught class or anything similar and you simply have no concept of what it is I’m trying to talk about. Teaching in a complete way that is understood and isn’t excessively verbose takes skill, time, and effort. Their comment wasn’t wrong but it was not high quality teaching. It was obviously confusing for many people who commented and upvoted about it, and barring anything else, that is enough evidence to show the explanation is imperfect.
I don’t want to talk about this anymore and I have no more desire to give you any more of my time in particular.
I love seeing linguists on Lemmy. Wish we had a bigger community.
To put it in layman’s terms just focus on explaining that J is often [d͡ʒ] which already has a D sound in it.
Okay, I think I get it. When I say “dr-” the r is made with the tip of my tongue just behind my front teeth, but when I say “jr-” (like in badger), the r is made with the middle of my tounge in the middle of my mouth. Neat!
you’ve written tree as “tshree” there.
Hey there now. We aint knowing any of your elvish. Best keep that to yourself, ya understand?
Mae g’ovannen!