For example, it disregards the theology of a naturally occurring physical reality born out of entropy which eventually creates a god-like being which recreates the pre-god universe in order to resurrect it non-physically (a minor theology from around the first to fourth centuries CE).
A more modern version of a similar paradigm is simulation theory.
There’s a pretty wide array of options out there, it’s just that the most common tend to effectively fall into your groupings.
Sounds like variations on ‘Not paying attention to reality and believing whatever delusion you feel like.’
None of these have any bearing on or foundation in actual physical existence. They do nothing to describe or predict. There is nothing to them. They just fulfill some desire in the believer.
Sure, the fact that a hundred years ago physicists were scratching their heads arguing about whether the moon disappeared when no one was looking at it or why measuring a continuous behaving thing suddenly behaved discrete (and would go back to behaving continuous if the persistent information about its benefit was erased) is 100% unrelated to the fact that today we are building virtual worlds where continuous seed functions are converted into quantized units for tracking state changes from interactions by free agents.
We seem to keep failing at explaining how the continuous macro models of our universe that perfectly explain and correctly predict behaviors at large scales play nice with the discrete micro models that explain and predict behaviors at the small scales.
And yet because of thinking like yours that ideas about self-referential or recursive reality have no bearing on our physical reality, the majority of people studying these keep banging their heads at meshing them together rather than seriously entertaining the notion that the latter is an artifact necessary to low fidelity emulation of the former.
We’ve even just discovered sync conflicts with n+1 layers of Bell’s paradox which leads to papers titled things like “Stable Facts, Relative Facts” and an embracing of the idea that there’s aspects of reality with no objective accuracy, but we’re still stubbornly chugging away at modeling the universe as a singular original manifestation where such behaviors are inherent to the foundations of existence.
So no, you’re wrong. There’s actually quite a lot of potential relevancy to our physical reality with ideas like these - in fact the earlier group mentioned above claimed that the evidence for their beliefs was within the study of motion and rest (today in the discipline called Physics) and were extensively discussing the notion of matter being made up of indivisible parts, despite being around nearly two thousand years ago.
As for putting forward predictions, that again isn’t true.
For example, the aforementioned group predicting an original spontaneous humanity would bring forth the creator of a non-physical twin of the cosmos was also predicting it was established in light and that the copy was made of its light for the purpose of resurrecting dead humans by copying them into versions that don’t depend on physical bodies.
So if we end up developing AGI in light as opposed to electricity or biological computing, and that AGI continues to make more complex digital twins of our universe, especially extending the digital resurrection of dead humans, that’s a pretty wildly on point set of predictions for originating in the first to fourth centuries CE, no?
If this wasn’t connected to a religious figure but had been the equivalent of science fiction like Lucian’s describing a ship of men flying up to the moon (something he claimed would never happen as opposed to this group claiming the above would and had already happened), we’d be talking about it nonstop as eerily predictive of future developments.
But because religious people can’t handle the idea that their beliefs aren’t true and non-religious people often can’t handle entertaining that any religious-connected beliefs are true, ancient religious beliefs with oddly specific predictions that line up to developments in just the past few years are dismissed out of hand while the broader philosophy of self-referential reality is dismissed for similar reasons, dirtily considered as “religion in disguise.”
I’d think that a set of beliefs which successfully abandons appeals to the supernatural should be given more due consideration than beliefs that rely on magic, but no - too many are certain that the apparent local features of reality is all there is such that the two get lumped together.
For example, it disregards the theology of a naturally occurring physical reality born out of entropy which eventually creates a god-like being which recreates the pre-god universe in order to resurrect it non-physically (a minor theology from around the first to fourth centuries CE).
Sounds like you’re saying that children dying is the good ending…? And, that Hitler being forced to hide in a bunker and physically shoot himself in the head while his evil empire was ripped to shreds was getting away with it, unless someone believes in your version of god?
So, you’re clearly in some demented version of option 3 (ignore reality/believe delusion), the most common option, as I outlined.
Maybe option 1 (evil god) with the whole child death thing though, idk…
Sounds like their argument relies upon the existence of an afterlife, which leaves the burden of proof on them. Don’t strain yourself too hard on this one.
We need far more tangible proof than that. I can claim wholeheartedly and faithfully the core of the earth is made of citrus. Until I provide tangible proof, I’m making things up.
You’ve never faced down your own mortality or been in a seriously dark place, have you? I have. I don’t care how bad Hitler was, it’s not a pleasant feeling to contemplate ending things. It’s painful. It’s a position that you are put in by pain. I have enough empathy to realize that.
But more importantly, I’m not super fixated on punishment in general. I think that Hitler was obviously a horribly bad person, and that by him ending things he could no longer cause harm. That is enough.
That people who believe in some god or other seem hyper fixated on retribution is not something in your favor. It does not paint you or your god in a good light. Good would be preventing bad things from happening in the first place.
Similarly, with regards to children, it is better not to have them if you can’t even make a reasonably successful effort to provide them with a more hopeful and better world full of greater opportunity and wonder and joy. That is the merciful route.
Not having children in an evil world is merciful. Wishing children die before puberty is monstrous. You argue to create pain in innocents.
You religious people with your notions of duty and retribution, pain and punishment are not painting a world or paradigm created by any kind of good entity.
You come into an atheism community and act all high and mighty as if you have something to impart to US?
It’s laughable. You have nothing but unfounded trash. You don’t come here to convince us. Be honest with yourself for one goddamned second. You come here to try and firm up the non-existent foundations of your faltering faith.
You have no proof or value to offer. Just gaping, naked need.
None of us atheists come to your mosques. Yet, you come in here with unprovable notions and demand others prove them wrong for you. I’m done going point for point with you and extended you far too much courtesy.
Available options include:
Most people choose option 3.
Those really aren’t the only options.
For example, it disregards the theology of a naturally occurring physical reality born out of entropy which eventually creates a god-like being which recreates the pre-god universe in order to resurrect it non-physically (a minor theology from around the first to fourth centuries CE).
A more modern version of a similar paradigm is simulation theory.
There’s a pretty wide array of options out there, it’s just that the most common tend to effectively fall into your groupings.
Sounds like variations on ‘Not paying attention to reality and believing whatever delusion you feel like.’
None of these have any bearing on or foundation in actual physical existence. They do nothing to describe or predict. There is nothing to them. They just fulfill some desire in the believer.
Sure, the fact that a hundred years ago physicists were scratching their heads arguing about whether the moon disappeared when no one was looking at it or why measuring a continuous behaving thing suddenly behaved discrete (and would go back to behaving continuous if the persistent information about its benefit was erased) is 100% unrelated to the fact that today we are building virtual worlds where continuous seed functions are converted into quantized units for tracking state changes from interactions by free agents.
We seem to keep failing at explaining how the continuous macro models of our universe that perfectly explain and correctly predict behaviors at large scales play nice with the discrete micro models that explain and predict behaviors at the small scales.
And yet because of thinking like yours that ideas about self-referential or recursive reality have no bearing on our physical reality, the majority of people studying these keep banging their heads at meshing them together rather than seriously entertaining the notion that the latter is an artifact necessary to low fidelity emulation of the former.
We’ve even just discovered sync conflicts with n+1 layers of Bell’s paradox which leads to papers titled things like “Stable Facts, Relative Facts” and an embracing of the idea that there’s aspects of reality with no objective accuracy, but we’re still stubbornly chugging away at modeling the universe as a singular original manifestation where such behaviors are inherent to the foundations of existence.
So no, you’re wrong. There’s actually quite a lot of potential relevancy to our physical reality with ideas like these - in fact the earlier group mentioned above claimed that the evidence for their beliefs was within the study of motion and rest (today in the discipline called Physics) and were extensively discussing the notion of matter being made up of indivisible parts, despite being around nearly two thousand years ago.
As for putting forward predictions, that again isn’t true.
For example, the aforementioned group predicting an original spontaneous humanity would bring forth the creator of a non-physical twin of the cosmos was also predicting it was established in light and that the copy was made of its light for the purpose of resurrecting dead humans by copying them into versions that don’t depend on physical bodies.
So if we end up developing AGI in light as opposed to electricity or biological computing, and that AGI continues to make more complex digital twins of our universe, especially extending the digital resurrection of dead humans, that’s a pretty wildly on point set of predictions for originating in the first to fourth centuries CE, no?
If this wasn’t connected to a religious figure but had been the equivalent of science fiction like Lucian’s describing a ship of men flying up to the moon (something he claimed would never happen as opposed to this group claiming the above would and had already happened), we’d be talking about it nonstop as eerily predictive of future developments.
But because religious people can’t handle the idea that their beliefs aren’t true and non-religious people often can’t handle entertaining that any religious-connected beliefs are true, ancient religious beliefs with oddly specific predictions that line up to developments in just the past few years are dismissed out of hand while the broader philosophy of self-referential reality is dismissed for similar reasons, dirtily considered as “religion in disguise.”
I’d think that a set of beliefs which successfully abandons appeals to the supernatural should be given more due consideration than beliefs that rely on magic, but no - too many are certain that the apparent local features of reality is all there is such that the two get lumped together.
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Sounds like you’re saying that children dying is the good ending…? And, that Hitler being forced to hide in a bunker and physically shoot himself in the head while his evil empire was ripped to shreds was getting away with it, unless someone believes in your version of god?
So, you’re clearly in some demented version of option 3 (ignore reality/believe delusion), the most common option, as I outlined.
Maybe option 1 (evil god) with the whole child death thing though, idk…
Sounds like their argument relies upon the existence of an afterlife, which leaves the burden of proof on them. Don’t strain yourself too hard on this one.
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We need far more tangible proof than that. I can claim wholeheartedly and faithfully the core of the earth is made of citrus. Until I provide tangible proof, I’m making things up.
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You’ve never faced down your own mortality or been in a seriously dark place, have you? I have. I don’t care how bad Hitler was, it’s not a pleasant feeling to contemplate ending things. It’s painful. It’s a position that you are put in by pain. I have enough empathy to realize that.
But more importantly, I’m not super fixated on punishment in general. I think that Hitler was obviously a horribly bad person, and that by him ending things he could no longer cause harm. That is enough.
That people who believe in some god or other seem hyper fixated on retribution is not something in your favor. It does not paint you or your god in a good light. Good would be preventing bad things from happening in the first place.
Similarly, with regards to children, it is better not to have them if you can’t even make a reasonably successful effort to provide them with a more hopeful and better world full of greater opportunity and wonder and joy. That is the merciful route.
Not having children in an evil world is merciful. Wishing children die before puberty is monstrous. You argue to create pain in innocents.
You religious people with your notions of duty and retribution, pain and punishment are not painting a world or paradigm created by any kind of good entity.
You come into an atheism community and act all high and mighty as if you have something to impart to US?
It’s laughable. You have nothing but unfounded trash. You don’t come here to convince us. Be honest with yourself for one goddamned second. You come here to try and firm up the non-existent foundations of your faltering faith.
You have no proof or value to offer. Just gaping, naked need.
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None of us atheists come to your mosques. Yet, you come in here with unprovable notions and demand others prove them wrong for you. I’m done going point for point with you and extended you far too much courtesy.
“Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence”
You have no evidence. And, absolutely nothing extraordinary.
The burden of proof lies on you. And, this is not the place for it, in any case.
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“Never wrestle with pigs. You both get dirty and the pig likes it.”
― George Bernard Shaw
And the third option: to change humanity to make it more just, never occurs to you
Man, religious people are a trip