The claim that this is bad for the Dutch economy is nonsense. A huge number (probably most) Schiphol passengers are using the airport for a layover. They aren’t staying in the Netherlands, they’re not spending money there (at most some coffee or something but it’s duty free), and it doesn’t create many well paying jobs for people living in the Netherlands.
Most of the money Schiphol brings in stays in the pockets of people who are already rich and the jobs it creates are mostly poorly paid (like luggage handlers, staff at shops, etc). There’s plenty of open vacancies for jobs like that already, we don’t need an extremely loud and polluting industry for that.
Schiphol is too big as it is. The Netherlands is a small country and it doesn’t need such a huge airport. Why does Amsterdam need to be some hub for Europeans to fly across the world or to connect the Americas and Asia? Why must the Netherlands be even more polluted to make traveling slightly more convenient mostly for foreigners?
Over the summer, Belgium’s Mobility Minister Georges Gilkinet proposed a ban on flights between 11 p.m. and 6 a.m., saying “everyone has the right to rest and quiet nights."
I used to live directly under an airport approach path.
I did not care about aircraft at night. I’m not going to say that there isn’t anyone else out there that does, but you adapt to normal sounds in your environment. Airplanes didn’t wake me up. I’m asleep. If there’s one time I want a given aircraft coming through, it’s when I’m asleep.
What I did find obnoxious was aircraft coming in during the day and – for a few seconds – drowning out whatever was going on. Today, TiVO and streaming media with pausing and all that exists, and helps mitigate that to some degree, but at the time, if you missed a critical bit of television dialog, you missed it. And while most of the time we’d just suspend a conversation for a few seconds, and it became automatic, every now and then something would happen that didn’t deal well with interruption.
If they aren’t flying airplanes in during the night, that presumably means that there’s gonna be more demand for airport capacity during the day.
This is one only part of the corrective actions needed, the other half is improving regional mobility with trains to compensate:
The Dutch parliament is currently doing everything they can to help eurostar’s monopoly on travel to the UK by trying to solve the immigration and customs issue in Amsterdam, but they are doing nothing or not enough for all the other less flashy rail travel initiatives. In clockwise order:
- There is no fast international connection north possible from Amsterdam towards Bremen due to missing track alignments.
- Amsterdam to Arnhem and beyond is being tripled, but mainly for freight. There wasn’t even a speed increase to 200+ and I didn’t hear much about increasing passenger train frequency.
- Eindhoven - Venlo - Dusseldorf is missing a continuous IC connection and the German side of the Venlo tracks need doubling
- A similar direct train to Köln is needed, either from Eindhoven or Maastricht
- Many more ICE trains are needed that travel deeper into Germany, like Berlin, Frankfurt, Munich, Basel and beyond. They shouldn’t all leave from Amsterdam.
- Maastricht to Liege and Aachen should be high frequency IC routes, ideally starting further north in the Netherlands
- Reopen the Roermond-Antwerp alignment for passenger rail
- Continuing from Venlo to Eindhoven in the other direction, new track alignment is needed to connect Dusseldorf to Antwerp, Gent, Kortrijk, and Lille as a new mid to high speed corridor crossing 4 countries.
- More competition in service providers on HSL zuid, why is Thalys allowed the monopoly.
- The through traffic from Netherlands to France should not need to spend so long in Belgium, but that is being improved.
If air travel is then still competitive and bottlenecked on slot capacity, connecting Eindhoven Airport by rail and moving more flights there could help.
You seem to know your stuff so I have a question, I know that they’re currently working on the Friesenbrücke, the bridge between Weener (DE) and Leer (DE) which was destroyed a few years ago due to an accident. Arriva stated that they want to invest in a Groningen - Bremen line too, which hypothetically should make a Amsterdam - Bremen or even Amsterdam - Berlin line. Do you think that we’ll see lines like that, perhaps even high speed, in the future?
I’m not an expert, but with the current implementation of EU policy I don’t think we will see improvements in rail connections that aren’t freight or the high speed core soon unfortunately.
Over the summer, Belgium’s Mobility Minister Georges Gilkinet proposed a ban on flights between 11 p.m. and 6 a.m., saying “everyone has the right to rest and quiet nights."
I used to live directly under an airport approach path.
I did not care about aircraft at night. I’m not going to say that there isn’t anyone else out there that does, but you adapt to normal sounds in your environment. Airplanes didn’t wake me up. I’m asleep. If there’s one time I want a given aircraft coming through, it’s when I’m asleep.
What I did find obnoxious was aircraft coming in during the day and – for a few seconds – drowning out whatever was going on. Today, TiVO and streaming media with pausing and all that exists, and helps mitigate that to some degree, but at the time, if you missed a critical bit of television dialog, you missed it. And while most of the time we’d just suspend a conversation for a few seconds, and it became automatic, every now and then something would happen that didn’t deal well with interruption, and it would happen just when an aircraft was landing.
If they aren’t flying airplanes in during the night, that presumably means that there’s gonna be more demand for airport capacity during the day.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
Dutch authorities on Thursday confirmed they will slash the number of flights at Amsterdam’s Schiphol airport in a bid to cut noise pollution — a step that has airlines suing and calling for Washington to retaliate.
John Strickland, a director with aviation specialists JLS Consulting, called the decision “disastrous” for KLM, other airlines and the Dutch economy.
“Handicapping the vast economic and social benefits which aviation brings, particularly for a trade dependent country like the Netherlands is not the right solution.”
“We believe the U.S. and Dutch Governments have an obligation under our historic Open Skies Agreement to ensure that JetBlue is granted continued access at Amsterdam’s only viable airport,” the airline said in an emailed statement.
Last year, the Belgian federal government paid €25 million in penalties for noise pollution caused by air traffic around Zaventem airport in Brussels.
Over the summer, Belgium’s Mobility Minister Georges Gilkinet proposed a ban on flights between 11 p.m. and 6 a.m., saying “everyone has the right to rest and quiet nights."
The original article contains 605 words, the summary contains 169 words. Saved 72%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
What a surprising reslonse from KLM, Smith, etc /s
Last two times I flew with KLM (one of which last week) have been a complete nightmare. Multiple flights canceled, terrible, rude and incompetent customer service, even the leg room in some of their planes is now smaller than low cost flights. I’m never flying with them ever again.
And then what? Will the trains be made cheaper? Will there be more trains on the tracks? Will there be more tracks built? Will they be building an airport in a less densely populated area and improving public transport there?
This seems like very short term thinking.
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Cross Border Rail in the EU is surprisingly bad, IMHO. If you stay within one country, prices are lower, frequency and capacity are higher and usually the speed is higher as well. Eurostar has decreased in capacity over time and is by far the most expensive option, Thalys hasn’t increased capacity in decades (bought no new trains) and is also very expensive, ICE services to Netherlands and Belgium aren’t cheap and suffer from bad rolling stock (often half of the trains are cancelled), all border connections to spain suck in some form (Madrid-Lissabon is especially bad), there are (almost) no trains through switzerland (to connect to italy) and trains in switzerland are in general pretty slow, making trains to Italy very unattractive. Connections to Denmark suffer from bad rolling stock and are often booked out, there is no way to cross the Baltikum in any reasonable amount of time by train, there are very few train connections left in the balkans after Covid (e.g. greece has no single passenger train crossing the border). For people trying to cross over from Sweden to Finnland over Land, there are trains running to the border towns, but a walk of several kms is required between them (or there may be some form of bus connections, but I can’t figure them out). And everything train-wise is very slow in eastern europe anyways. Night trains are very often sold out far in advance and have historic rolling stock with lots of issues.
Worse than that, international tickets are often much more expensive than national ones (compare e.g. Frankfurt-Paris to Munich-Berlin), the border crossing is often the slowest part of the journey and if you want to get the cheap prices on both sides you have to book separate tickets, with all the ensuing fun of figuring out what to do if something goes wrong. Sometimes you just can’t book a single ticket anyway. There isn’t a great europe wide journey planner (good luck with Lisbon-Madrid or the Euskotren border crossing) with real-time information.
Cross border trains often aren’t the priority of a single country (for obvious reasons) and the entity that is supposed to have an eye on eu border travel by rail (the EU) frankly just doesn’t care a lot and it shows. The passport controls at internal shengen borders leading to 30+ min delays are just the cherry on top.
Still: A lot of intra-EU flights can be reasonably done by train/long-distance bus and a lot of (especially holiday travel) destinations substituted. It could always be much worse.
We also need more night trains. The frequency was probably higher in 1900 or something.
Hard disagree. This video sums up my experiences pretty well. Prices are shit, ticket conditions are shit, refund policies are shit, itinerary notifications are shit, speed is meh, search interfaces are meh.
Also, RIP if you have to travel through Germany and have to catch a train with 5-10 minute layover.
Yet, even though it’s not good, at least it’s not USA levels of shit. Of any developed nation, that takes the cake.
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