- cross-posted to:
- news@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- news@lemmy.world
The Grace Hopper Celebration is meant to unite women in tech. This year droves of men came looking for jobs.
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This really sounds like a failure of the organizers more than anything- first off, lumping in non-binary is a catch all that anyone will take advantage of, and second and most importantly, everyone was complaining about long lines. Long lines means lots of people. Lots of people means the event over-sold their $600-$1000 tickets.
Sounds like the event organizers were more interested in making money than helping women in tech- women would have had the same problems had it been 100% women.
Including non-binary people was not the problem. Relevant quote:
“AnitaB.org, the nonprofit that runs the conference, said there was “an increase in participation of self-identifying males” at this year’s event. The nonprofit says it believes allyship from men is important and noted it cannot ban men from attending due to federal nondiscrimination protections in the US.”
They identified as male, not non-binary, and the event allowed men to come.
So they identified as men, and the event allowed the men to come? Then I’m failing to see what the issue is?
The problem is, the event’s not allowed to discriminate officially. The article is about lamenting the ability to discriminate
I’m sure so many people right now have that shit eating grin, especially after reading
The nonprofit says it believes allyship from men is important and noted it cannot ban men from attending due to federal nondiscrimination protections in the US.
the article quotes a bunch of people frustrated at pushing, shoving, line cutting etc at the job fair portion that weren’t visiting presentations - basically people who didn’t want to listen to the speeches but wanted to throw out resumes, fuck everyone else.
IMO they could solve the problem with a stamp system for people who sat through a presentation but its kind of shitty to have to treat everyone like kids because a couple dudes can’t behave themselves.
It also mentioned how some were lying about their identity, but I’m not sure how they figured that out
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you have to specify what genders of nonbinary are/aren’t welcome
“Genders of nonbinary”
My friend, nonbinary is a gender. This is like asking what type of bird a chicken is.
Nonbinary is a category of genders much like intersex is a category of sexes. It contains everything from agender to bigender to demigenders and all sorts of others. Much like how intersex can mean anything from completely ambiguous reproductive structures to anomalies of the sex chromosomes to natural hormone imbalance starting at puberty as well as several other traits. Sometimes it’s relevant to narrow it down.
That’s a bad analogy, because a chicken is a Galliform.
I knew it. I felt it the second I typed it that there was something wrong with the analogy and someone who knows birds more than me would come along and point it out. I posted the analogy anyway. That’s on me.
It was an excellent analogy.
Thank you for your service. Damn near fell out of my chair.
TIL chickens can time travel.
What are the genders of non-binary?
And while you’re here, is yellow more of a blue or red?
Yellow is far closer to red than blue… it has a wavelength of ~570 nm, while red is ~615 nm and blue ~470 nm.
Edit, mistake
But that’s only in RGBW, how about in CYMK?
/s
This is like saying that I’m closer to being a New Yorker than a Californian, because I live in North Carolina.
Sure, something is “closer”, but it is completely distinct and has little to do with either.
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Right, like the ones with vaginas are cool and the ones with penises aren’t?
This just sounds like sexes with extra steps.
Tangentially related, but are job fairs even worth it? In my limited experience, you wait in a long line for someone to tell you to apply online. I was better off getting a list of employers who were attending, and then looking through each of their websites.
I think I figured it out… only rarely you’d get immediate interviews, but the idea is you get LinkedIn contacts to chat with later and industry insight, and something to tell recruiters/hiring managers that you did, but you dress it up in a way that shows you look for opportunity like “I met members of [industry/company] at a recruiting conference in [town]”. I found industry conferences to be more useful than jobfairs in this respect, but those can be a little to a lot expensive.
Otherwise it’s pretty much just being told to scan QR codes, business cards and maybe getting a couple plastic cups and pens.
All in all I say job hunting is such an awful game.
No. Mostly you run around collect business cards and then go online to apply for the jobs… that you could have done without going to the job fair in the first place.
TBH It’s a huge red flag if a recruiter wants upfront payment with no guarantee at the end of it (or even if they ‘guarantee’ one). If the recruiters are so desperate for someone they want to organise a job fair, they can bloody well pay for it themselves.
Also watch out for the recruiters who give you a challenge to fulfill just to be considered. It’s free work they are looking for.
My experience of going to a tech fair was:
- Great discussion with sourcing recruiter of Big Name Company, who loves CV and experience
- Get Business Card and told to apply online
- Apply online
- Ghosted/immediately rejected.
They’re basically box-ticking exercises for companies that want to work with specific organisations.
I’ve been on the opposite side. A company I used to work for did a table at a job fair once. The candidates who showed up to talk to us were mostly under qualified for the entry level position we were trying to fill. And by that, I mean that people with zero knowledge, training or experience in our industry. Even one class or a little knowledge might have sufficed.
We had one guy lingering near our table who really seemed to want to work with us even though his skill set didn’t fit our needs at all and we told him as much. The whole thing was a big waste of time for us, we never did another one after that.
under qualified for the entry level position we were trying to fill.
Was it really “entry level” then?
Entry level means different things in different fields. Most skilled jobs do require some knowledge about the field, but don’t necessarily require previous work experience.
Thank you. This wasn’t a joke where we were like “entry level; requires 5 years of experience”. This job fair was at a community college… So it wouldn’t have been unreasonable to think that maybe someone there had some interest and at least a minimal level of training. Like I said, a class or two.
If “one class” or “a little knowledge” is enough, then yes, assuming it’s a position with advancement opportunities.
For a desirable or career type position, showing some initiative is not an unreasonable ask.
Yes. This wasn’t an open “literally anyone can do it” job. It’s entry level as in starting a path to a career. A certain aptitude is definitely necessary.
Let me ask you this, is a job that requires a two year degree and zero years of experience entry level? Because our requirements were even less than that.
I don’t know why you’re trying to convince me, its obvious its not as “entry level” as you thought, ans you cant find employees because the pay is very much “entry level”.
This.
“Entry-level” is employerese for, “a professional position for which we don’t want to pay a professional rate”.
Guessing from your username you’ve encountered plenty of hiring managers looking for someone with multiple years experience in their specific niche field on exactly the software they use…for their entry level position that they want to pay less than 2x minimum wage.
The last time I was job hunting, I thought there had to be a typo so I actually responded to an ad for a CAD drafter to fill an “entry level” position that they wanted ten years of experience to fill.
I had the experience, so I figured I’d see what was going on. Surely someone along the hiring pipeline had screwed something up
Nope!
They really wanted a CAD drafter with a decade of experience for their entry level position to work for like $14/hr.
When I told them how unrealistic that was, the response was something to the effect of “When we say entry level, we mean it as entry into our company. The pay may seem low but this will give you the opportunity to quickly earn raises as you take advantage of your employment in our great organization!”
They really wanted a CAD drafter with a decade of experience for their entry level position to work for like $14/hr.
Ha! Good luck with that. You might be able to hire a kid out of high school who got to try solidworks for 30 minutes one afternoon for that much.
And you’re right, I’ve seen it. One place I talked to had some obscure CAD software I’d never heard of, they wanted someone who could just sit down and use it with no instruction, they were 40 miles from the nearest “major” city, and they wanted to pay $13 per hour, $14 for “the right person”. Nope.
It used to be once upon a time. Because companies invested in people and fully trained them themselves.
Yes I know, times have changed.
is a job that requires a two year degree and zero years of experience entry level?
Imo no, though companies use the term “entry level” VERY loosely.
Many career paths will substitute experience for a degree. But there need to be true entry level jobs to give them that experience.
It’s okay if you want someone who’s taken classes specific to your field, but I think it’s misleading to then call the job “entry level”.
So to you, “entry level” is literally just unskilled labor and nothing else?
Sort of. “Unskilled labor” implies a certain job sector. I’m taking about the role that is currently served by internships, temp-to-hire, apprenticeships, on the job certifications, and people who lie about their experience and then underperform while they learn the role.
I guess I’d say “no prior experience needed” rather than “unskilled labor”. The work itself can be “skilled” but the job applicant isn’t (yet).
No matter how “skilled” you get at retail, it will always be considered “unskilled labor”. That’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about the company that takes on a temp worker witg no prior experience, with the possibility of full time hire if they show promise. That’s “entry-level”.
>hiring for entry level
>saying people are underqualified
The problem is with the companies, not the job seekers. Actually offer true entry level positions, and actually hire the people that apply.
Entry level doesn’t necessarily mean literally anyone can do it. What I meant was basically first job out of college. Except you could apply while you were still in college. If that isn’t entry level, I don’t know what is.
Yeah those sorts of positions are usually locked to college students. So once you graduate you can no longer apply despite those being the positions you’re qualified for.
I remember when a lady tried to scam me into an MLM at a job fair I attended several years ago.
It’s not a pyramid, it’s a triangle.
reverse funnel
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That’s been my experience as well. Totally pointless when they just want you to apply online. What’s the use of networking then?
If recruiters are trying to discriminate, and you have the attributes they’re discriminating in favor of, getting a face-to-face with them can be a way to get your foot in the door that doesn’t leave a paper trail.
Which really highlights how bad the job market is now. All the recruiters at this job fair are going to share the sentiments the organizers are expressing in this article. They’re there to hire women and are pissed at all the men who showed up, so significantly less likely to hire them… but those dudes are so desperate they still gave it a shot.
Which really highlights how bad the job market is now
I think we should specify, “in tech”. The greater job market is doing fine. Tech has been over hiring and over compensating for years.
I’m a woman and wasn’t even at the event. No clue it was going on, and it seems like it’d be far too expensive for me to attend in the first place. If they’re looking for women who are eager to work for them, they’re looking in the wrong place.
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It depends on the job fair. My mid-tier university’s career fair was as you describe. From talking to (women) classmates who attended Grace Hopper on the other hand it sounded very worth it. The lines were short (in the mid 2010s anyway) and many of the companies in attendance were scheduling next-day, single round interviews with job offers sent out by the end of the week. I have no idea if it’s still like that but I can’t say I’m surprised that, given how the tightly pool of entry-level jobs offering visa sponsorships has contracted, affected male students have gotten desperate and shameless enough to try it.
That’s been my experience as well. Totally pointless when they just want you to apply online. What’s the use of networking then?
I like how this comment section highlights why a job fair specifically not for cis men is needed lol
It’s so fucking cringe. I work in tech, I see how weirdly women get treated and I see their unusually high turnover rate. Early on I was told “women don’t last long here” and it was very true, that woman in particular quit to do freelance work (good for her). Why can’t women have a job fair? Men don’t fucking need one, NEARLY ALL of the other tech job fairs are dominated by men.
I’m really being sincere, but why would men magically not need a job fair? They can also be unemployed and struggle to get a job. That’s not a 2x specific issue.
I guess I’ll just copy and paste from my previous comment:
NEARLY ALL of the other tech job fairs are dominated by men.
Because men dominate the tech industry. It just doesn’t make sense to hold one for men.
Eh… I think it does, but for different reasons. The tech industry has a relatively high rate of unemployment. Job fairs would be good for everyone.
I agree that women have unique issues in tech and a women-only job fair would be a good thing. I just think General-admission job fairs are useful now too.
Eh… I think it does, but for different reasons. The tech industry has a relatively high rate of unemployment. Job fairs would be good for everyone.
I agree that women have unique issues in tech and a women-only job fair would be a good thing. I just think General-admission job fairs are useful now too.
What’s worse is when you see workplaces that want more women for only the idea it will ‘bring up the standard’ like….I think there’s something telling about the culture alone if they need a specific gender to help understand better standards of working. I would hope they are hiring inclusively for more reasons than just ‘our standards are low cuz the men here are poo and we won’t confront them on it. We will leave it to women to mommy manage it for us. Know any women looking for a job?’
Why can’t women have a job fair?
Laws.
I agree with you, it’s just not the way the laws were written.
Yeah but been could be mature enough to stay away from it. Instead they act like they’re being oppressed. All the other job fairs are already dominated by men.
If woman want a job fair they should create one that actually only allows women, but given no one seems to have a definition for women, it might be hard to do.
Way to be exactly the type of person they are referring to.
Federal anti-discrimination laws disallow this. It has nothing to do with the “definition of women”.
which law prevents a private female only conference from happening? As far as I know, there are no such laws.
Read The Fucking Article, that’s the exact reason they allowed men at the conference in question: federal nondiscrimination laws
I’m saying I don’t buy that reason. There are no laws (afaik) that prevent exactly what I described. Federal discrimination laws typically refer to employment or public places, not private events.
This is an employment related event. Anti discrimination laws apply to applicants.
If it was just a networking event, no problem, ban men
some of the comments here are downright scary. women can’t have a single thing, it seems.
And article makes it clear what is to blame
The nonprofit says it believes allyship from men is important and noted it cannot ban men from attending due to federal nondiscrimination protections in the US.
lol
Yeah, this sucks. It doesn’t surprise me, but it sucks. So many manchildren out there who only think about themselves.
Yeah if there’s ever a sign that a group doesn’t need representation is when they brigade someone who does.
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No it does not. The problem was with men that lied about their gender.
Cullen White, AnitaB.org’s chief impact officer, said in a video posted to X, formerly Twitter, that some registrants had lied about their gender identity when signing up, and men were now taking up space and time with recruiters that should go to women.
edit: the deleted comment stated that the article claimed they had problems with amab enbies
This comment section is a perfect example of how capitalists have won the class war. Such hatred for half of the population of the world that people seem to have forgotten that people need jobs to survive.
Ignoring gender, are job fairs overrun by job seekers now? Is it that bad?
Tech is overcrowded as a field and it gets worse each year. So yes.
Sadly, the perception will always be that there aren’t enough workers in tech, or that there aren’t enough “good” techies, when that hasn’t been the case for many many years now.
While a lot of people do leave tech for management or other careers, bootcamps still sell the dream to make money, and people always talk about how “learning to code is so important to society”. There has been an effort in the last decade or so to flood the market with entry-level workers, that we’re now in a situation where people are spending thousands on qualifications, only to find it near impossible to get the job - or finding that no one gives a fuck where you went to college and that you need to “LC or GTFO”.
Yup qualifications are only one of the things we look at, and it’s way down the list. which college… who cares?
Show us an active github page, boast about how you installed lemmy whilst fighting off a herd of wildebeast… top of the list.
I left tech to go work in nuclear power. Best career change I could have made.
Fuck. I graduate next year in tech
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All of those are limited resources to which you have no right,” White said.
But then earlier:
The nonprofit says it believes allyship from men is important and noted it cannot ban men from attending due to federal nondiscrimination protections in the US.
So… We’d like to discriminate against men and would conversely see no problem if someone else hosted male only hiring events…?
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After thinking about it that’s exactly what they’re doing.
They sold tickets at $700 each to loads of men. So loads of men turned up.
What did they expect to happen. They knew in advance how many tickets they’d sold and to who… and nobody raised any flags. A few % lying about gender (if they did, gender is complex) wouldn’t tip the scales that much.
That’s the motto of the WNBA… SOMEONE, needs to pay for this, but it’s not the responsibility of women to support women’s sports ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
#BringBackDiscrimination
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Did you mean this to seem sincere? Because it reads like a snide anti-LGBTQ statement.
How is saying they just assumed they weren’t trans an anti-LGBTQ statement?
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Because you obviously didn’t even bother to read the article.
AnitaB.org, the nonprofit that runs the conference, said there was “an increase in participation of self-identifying males” at this year’s event.
Not a TERF, just downvoting because you made a ridiculous statement and then followed it up with “anyone who disagrees with me is a bigot”.
How dare workers in (potentially desperate?) need of a job to look for jobs. They are men and belonging to that category automatically makes them rich and privileged. The working class should be united against common enemies, not divided because of gender. While it’s obvious that women in tech are discriminated, alienating fellow victims, even if males, is not the answer to the problem.
Capital really won the class war…
I know you didn’t mean it like this, but the result from this line of thinking is that we only try to put women on equal footing with men in tech when it’s convenient for men because times are good. Which in turn means we never put women on equal footing because the needs of men always come first.
Put differently women have to deal with being women in tech on top of times being desperate, men only have to deal with times being desperate. Things like this are why spaces like these are necessary in the first place, and if you break them down at the first discomfort you’re not a working class hero fighting the capital, you’re tearing down women and setting everyone back.
Gender is absolutely not the only nor the most important discriminating factor in tech. Being a foreigner and, probably most commonly, being old is an extreme disadvantage in tech. Similarly, a woman coming from a wealthy family might be a privileged compared to a man coming from a poor background (which translates into lower access to education, resources, etc.).
Look at the video in the article, and tell me you don’t notice some commonalities among the men in the queues.
I see mostly foreigners, who most likely have no network of support, and need a job to maintain a VISA before getting kicked out of the country. Are they in a better or worse position compared to a local woman? Does it even make sense to start asking these questions?
I want to challenge this vision where discriminations are only looked at through the lens of gender division. This is shortsighted because discrimination on the workplace is extremely diverse and it exists for the benefit of those same sponsors of this event.
As a teenage girl into coding, I was treated like absolute shit. If I made a mistake in my botball code, it was because I wasn’t good at coding. If a boy made a mistake in their botball code, then it was something that the other boys would help them debug. I remember it being assumed I just wouldn’t be able to figure out what structs were, so the boys running the botball code didn’t teach me. In college, any group project was an opportunity for boys to try to fuck me.
As a trans man, someone who has experienced life as both a man and woman in STEM, there are massive barriers to women. It’s invisible to you because you haven’t lived through it.
I am fully aware that those barriers exist. I am arguing (in other comments I am more explicit) about fighting against barriers, not a particular barrier.
I am also a foreigner in another country, and despite being a privileged person from many point of views (I could attend public university despite my family being poor), I have experienced some form of discrimination myself, so please don’t make assumption about other people’s. I am not blind to those kind of barriers, I simply have different opinions on the actions to take to improve the overall situation, with the goal of removing the concept of barrier, not any particular one (if that makes sense).
You’re arguing while shifting scope which is a problem. Are you arguing about averages or individual experience?
Neither and both, depending on the context. There is no point to tell a person (who is maybe in need of a job and behind with the mortgage) “sorry, your group is privileged, fuck off”. At the same time it still makes sense talking generally about solving sexism, ageism and other form of discrimination still too common in tech. Both perspectives exist, but you can slice the population in many groups, with different “average” experiences, therefore is overall shortsighted to categorize people only based on “one slice”. Hence, the class analysis which is I find both more effective and more functional.
The context is important and central to the argument. I would say its critical to discuss it in any kind of valid way.
That’s the because mixing the scope means you’re arguing about two different things.
Talking about how females or minorities or other groups are impacted by something is measured using averages across the whole population.
How would that make sense to the argue about the individual who breaks that trend? Because it doesn’t change the original point that a group experiences an event. Outliers are expected. I didn’t smoke cigarettes, I’m still able to get cancer. That shouldn’t mean that people who smoke shouldn’t quit if they want to be healthier.
No one is saying gender is the only point of discrimination, but this specific event is focused on gender issues.
My point is that there is nothing else for issue related to other discriminations. And yet, before thinking whether those men (who showed up) maybe are also oppressed and discriminated, they have been simply labeled as “men” and therefore intruders, by definition. I would think that an oppressed community would realize the commonalities with other oppressed categories and use this to expand the struggle to them as well. Instead the rethoric behind this article makes me think that this is one of those events which is ultimately functional to the conservation of the status quo: big tech companies which sponsor the event and gain some visibility and good karma points to boost diversity while nothing really changes or is done to address the fundamental issue with discrimination (in general, not a specific one), because this is ultimately functional to the companies, which can leverage them to fight a fragmented worker’s front.
Bang fucking on point. Dont trust the people who profit off inequality and a desperate workforce to make things less desperate and more equal
I’ve had a lot more foreign male colleagues than I have female colleagues. Where are you getting you information about who’s disadvantaged?
Quantitative measuring tells you nothing. You have no visibility of the “starting condition”, how many foreigners are not even accepted a job interview, how many apply, etc. Discrimination is not something that can be measure with a scale.
Not to talk about age, ageism is huge in tech. Old people are sometimes fired to be replaced (hello IBM). In my company we are at around 25% women, 20% on engineering. I still need to meet a person over 50 (in engineering), I think there are maybe 3-4 over 40 (on a total of 300).
Also, discrimination doesn’t mean just not getting hired, it means contractual penalties, less salary etc., which happen in some cases with women too, of course.
That said, I am not arguing that women in tech are not discriminated, of course they are. I am saying that there are multiple vector of discrimination and that we should be able to fight against the general phenomenon, without having to choose which discrimination to keep and which to fight.
You need to do a lot of reading about intersectionality and intersectional feminism. You’re right about there being multiple possible systemic disadvantages because of someone’s identity (gender, sexual orientation, race, nationality, disability, etc) but the answer to that is not to sit around going NUH UH THIS GROUP HAS IT WORSE. Everyone needs uplifting, and it just so happens that this event was for women. If you think there needs to be a foreigners in tech job fair, go do one.
I respectfully disagree. If you think that organizing such events, with sponsors of that caliber is just a matter of “go do one”, then we simply have different point of views. I also did not make qualitative comparisons between who gets oppressed, I am simply observing that there are so many components to discrimination in tech that focusing on only one (intentionally, even after the opportunity to expand opened up presented itself) is not synergic with the long term strategy.
It’s fine to disagree, this is ultimately a subjective ideological call. I simply disliked the tone of the article overall. I would have liked some more in depth analysis of the impact (and reasons) of layoffs and maybe some interview to those people who “crashed” the event. Maybe with some sprinkle of discussion of unionization and collective fight, but I guess it was not fitting in an article about an event sponsored by the very same who laid off tens of thousands of people.
This is such a stupid and horrible take. Do you even work in tech?
Yes.
If you can also argument your position, I would be grateful.
A lot of times people arguing like that ignore the imbalance that exists and they go on to argue as if everything is equal to start with.
Yeah they are called stupid morons.
So, I’m a moron.
I did it my whole life until I took a stats course and it was like the first this the prof went over and I saw it was pretty obvious once it was pointed out to me but took someone having to point it out to me for me to see that mental blind spot
The paywall dropped on me before I could get to the end of the article, but a couple of observations:
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“Overrun” is dehumanizing language. I’m otherwise highly sympathetic, but casting desperate people, many likely staring down deportation unless they can find a new position, as an effective horde is gross. I would like to trust that Wired provided that characterization, not the organizers.
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The organizers ruined their own event, by not establishing and enforcing guardrails for attendance. This is a problem mostly of their own making. Rather than pointing, again, at desperate people, they should be accepting responsibility and planning to avoid the issue in the future.
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I think part of the problem is that everyone- regardless of race, sex, gender or orientation has MASSIVE debt, in part due to the greed of the housing and rentals market, student loans, and unpayable medical bills- on top of caring for families and children. While people in a 1:1 conversation would definitely acknowledge cons for minority groups, this situation is more like a sinking ship with everyone fighting over the same few rickety lifeboats. Everyone else is just a faceless competitor as debt sharks get closer and closer.
I still don’t understand why we don’t write laws preventing CEOs from making disgusting amounts of money and why we don’t have laws against multibillionares hoarding vast amounts of cash that should be getting invested into the very job fairs and infrastructure people are squabbling over.
It’s an unfortunate situation any way you look at it. And it’s a bummer that people are missing the forest for the trees in this thread :/
What do you mean by equal footing? Equality in Outcomes, or Equality in Opportunities?
Having a job conference open to all genders sounds more equal then a conference excluding a gender identity.
I personally would love to get to the point where names, photos, genders, and social networks - are removed from all employment material and people are just judged on their ability to do a job.
Something like putting someone into the interview queue based on their resume and projects, then having the interview feedback re-written by a third party to remove all discriminatory indicators, then a double blind hiring committee making decisions based on the interview feedback, and neutral resumes. It’s a pipe dream, but it would get us closer to a true meritocracy
Women face a huge amount of bias in the tech industry. There’s nothing wrong with giving the disadvantages an advantage.
Us men are basically crying because women are getting what we’ve had the whole time.
Obviously what you describe would be ideal but even that doesn’t even the playing field. Once hired women still face that same bias. They are less likely to be taken seriously as professionals (particularly by the higher ups who tend towards old white men) and more likely to be passed over for promotions.
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I’ve seen it happen multiple times, especially in more corporate jobs.
I try to very specifically mention who came up with ideas even if it’s my work for this reason.
Another common one is not wanting to ask simple questions in meetings as it makes them look less intelegent. While I ask every stupid question I can think of to be sure and look like I’m invested.
My advice is talk to your manager about things like that instead of helping. I know it feels like a dick move but it’s not your job to help someone else with basic stuff.
Something along the lines of “I think John may require more training as I’m having to help him a lot with simple things. I’m happy to do it but my deadlines will need adjusting”
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So your advocating for Equality in Outcomes?
Disadvantages groups need help to gain equal footing first. Before we can even talk about equality.
What does equal footing look like / mean to you?
The easiest is incentives to hire minorities (gender, sexual, race, disabled, etc.) to level the playing field first.
This takes away a large part of the privilege that is at play in the tech industry.
As more of these minorities get higher in the industry the implicit biases will begin to disappear.
Many of the people who currently experience the privilege will be pissed off and view it as unfair. But in reality they’re getting a taste of what other minorities already experience.
And in my experience (roughly 20 years) the more diverse a team the better the solutions and diversity in thinking you get.
Females have a hard time in tech, not women. anyone can be a women. but historically only females were the ones disadvantaged. Transgender women are actually over represented in tech as a proportion of population.
No I don’t mean that because I’m not an incel.
Transgender women are actually over represented in tech as a proportion of population.
That’s great.
people use the word incel pretty liberally these days. can you think of something a bit more original?
Spoken like a true incel
So one form of discrimination was wrong, but this version is ok? No. We should learn from past mistakes, not essentially replicate them with the only difference being we flipped the men/women position.
Also, article states women make up a third of tech jobs. A third. That’s a really good chunk. I think the battle for women in tech jobs is over.
You’re only looking at things at a surface level. If you don’t correct the wrong, the “level playing field” is only an illusion. companies can’t easily correct why less women choose careers in tech, but they can make moves to correct the problem at their level. Extend and push for parental leave policies where the non-child barring spouse also takes time off for example. Women often see career growth plateau vs non-child barring co-workers due to this missed time. Traditionally this has meant women fall behind men.
Otherwise if you tomorrow just remove gender from Resumes, Men will still have an advantage, because they had the advantage in the past. It would take an entire generation to sort itself out assuming every inherent bias disappears and they absolutely won’t.
Inequality of outcome is proof of inequality of opportunities 99.9% of the time. IME people playing up the distinction are simply looking for any excuse to pretend inequality isn’t a problem.
I’m trying to understand the requirements of the parent comment.
I’m not trying to be disingenuous.
Equality means a lot of things to a lot of people. Equality of outcome, and equality of opportunities are very distinct, and nuanced, and well-defined things.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equality_of_outcome
Vs
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_opportunity
Trying to understand what equal footing means, is helpful for me to understand the parent posters position. I don’t want to be stuck in ambiguity, when I’m genuinely trying to understand people.
They are men and belonging to that category automatically makes them rich and privileged.
Privilege doesn’t mean that things are easy or automatic, just that (in general) people with privilege don’t have the same systemic negatives that those without it have. And it’s very indicative of privilege for the men who went to this thing, which was built up over a number of years by a community specifically to benefit the members of that community, to just assume they had the rights of a community member without ever having contributed to that community. Something exists, and therefore they are automatically entitled to it.
I can have sympathy for people desperate for jobs, and I can understand class warfare, and yet … once again something that women and enbys spent years and decades building up, is ruined because cishet men decided it was more ‘convenient’ for them to invite themselves into spaces not designed for them.
And yes, I do get frustrated with men not understanding issues of consent, in all of it’s different aspects.
I can have sympathy for people desperate for jobs, and I can understand class warfare, and yet … once again something that women and enbys spent years and decades building up, is ruined because cishet men decided it was more ‘convenient’ for them to invite themselves into spaces not designed for them.
Couldn’t this same logic be used by men to justify not allowing women into the tech industry in the first place? If someone of the wrong gender being around counts as “ruining” then men could say “once again something that men spent years and decades building up, is ruined because women and enbys decided it was more ‘convenient’ for them to invite themselves into spaces not designed for them.” In fact I’d say something like that attitude really is what underlies a lot of tech industry sexism.
Gender-exclusive spaces often seem appealing to the favored gender, but they’re really not good for anybody.
No, it couldn’t. Because men excluding women from tech in the first place is wholly excluding them - there isn’t another tech industry they can participate in. Men are being excluded from a single event when there are many other events doing the SAME THING that they are encouraged to attend.
Not saying I agree one way or the other, but the argument you make about the logic is not sound.
This argument is nonsense, but to humor it, there are other “industries”, and tech is just a collection of companies ultimately. " go do your fair" can sound also as “go make your own company (and hire who you want)”. Again, this is overall ridiculous, but at a purely rethorical level I think it works?
Women are excluded from tech?
My point is that while privilege can be applied to a category, it doesn’t make sense for a small number of individuals.
As I mentioned in another comment, look at the video, and notice how most men are clearly foreigners. Foreigners who maybe need a job to keep their visa or that anyway might not have the same network of support behind because they are just 2nd generation.
In my opinion, alienating fellow victims of a discriminatory system is at best shortsighted.
I also disagree with you deliberately labeling convenience what can very likely be necessity. I understand this aids your argument, but I find it purely based on prejudice.
I’m going to copy my reply to someone else elsewhere in this conversation:
First off, that job fair didn’t just spontaneously happen. It was thought up by, organized by, and run by women and enbys in tech, specifically to help women and enbys in tech. Those sponsors didn’t just miraculously happen; they were researched, approached, courted, their concerns addressed and their needs accommodated. And yes, that effort too was put in by women and enbys in tech, for other women and enbys in tech.
These are people with limited time and resources, who spent thirty years working on this, who carefully nurtured and shepherded the few resources they could gather, in order to create one single thing to help with their specific needs and challenges. That doesn’t mean there aren’t other groups with their own needs and challenges - foreigners who need accommodations for their visas and maybe cultural or language help, disabled people who need sign language interpreters or low-vision accommodations, people with issues like ADHD or major anxiety who need supportive environments and some guidance or handholding. There are lots of groups who can benefit from a job fair organized around their specific needs. The fact is, if you aren’t part of the group the fair is intended to help, you shouldn’t just show up, insert yourself into a place you were never invited, and take resources away from those who those resources were intended for.
And honestly, one of my frustrations is this: if you make a resource for … people living on Native American reservations, or blind or deaf people, or the mentally ill, or the homeless, or whomever, the resources generated get reserved for that community and no one blinks an eye. But as soon as a resource is designed to help women, there is an immediate and constant demand to expand that resource to other groups. The women and enbys who spent years and decades creating and nuturing this thing have the right to expend their limited time and energy creating resources that matter to them.
I’m not saying that foreigners don’t need help. I’m saying that out of the literally tens of thousands job fairs across the country every year, there’s this one job fair that supposed to be for women and enbys. And if foreign women and enbys want to come and participate, great! But cishet men just deciding to help themselves to something that wasn’t created or intended for them is just such an incredibly self-centered cishet-man thing to do that it’s incredibly frustrating to those of us who have given so much of ourselves to creating and nuturing safe spaces.
I am also copying another response:
My point is that there is nothing else for issue related to other discriminations. And yet, before thinking whether those men (who showed up) maybe are also oppressed and discriminated, they have been simply labeled as “men” and therefore intruders, by definition. I would think that an oppressed community would realize the commonalities with other oppressed categories and use this to expand the struggle to them as well. Instead the rethoric behind this article makes me think that this is one of those events which is ultimately functional to the conservation of the status quo: big tech companies which sponsor the event and gain some visibility and good karma points to boost diversity while nothing really changes or is done to address the fundamental issue with discrimination (in general, not a specific one), because this is ultimately functional to the companies, which can leverage them to fight a fragmented worker’s front.
people living on Native American reservations, or blind or deaf people, or the mentally ill, or the homeless, or whomever,
The difference between women in tech and the examples you made in my opinion is exactly that the examples address the whole universe of people affected by a particular discrimination or disadvantage. In the case of woman in tech, a single aspect of a more general problem is cherry picked. Again, I don’t want to use moral terms, I just think in terms of objectives to pursue. I have the feeling that the objective for some of the people who are talking about “intruders” is not to improve the culture in tech to eliminate discrimination and privileges, but a simple issue of “we want to be a bigger % of the privileged”. As such, I feel that the struggle is inherently reactionary, entrenching the overall dynamic of discrimination and fragmentation of the working class, simply tweaking a bit the appearance.
While it’s for sure true that organizing all of this did not happen in a vacuum, I would also argue that ultimately this is also the result of a “more privileged” status quo, bigger amount of power and influence, compared to other minorities that simply can’t achieve the same. Rather than using this power for the benefit of other oppressed, it seems that the idea is to just fight your own battle. I don’t want to say it’s wrong, I just think that this does not fit in my idea of struggle to improve the society. If I were a man who needed a job and I was labeled as intruder, non invited or something, I would have a problem tomorrow to join a union with those who labeled me, because the feeling I would get is that there is no mutual recognition of common problems and class. In turn, this means that when tomorrow there will be the need to protest against the various Apple, Microsoft, etc. Workers are going to have less power, not to mention that some of the people will think that since X% more women are hired in tech there is maybe nothing to protest in the first place.
Do you go to a fundraiser for Heart Disease and ask for money to be diverted to Diabetes?
Foreigners from misogynist coutries by chance?
How is this relevant? What does that tell you about particular individuals also?
Switch men with women.
Let’s see how that reads 🤡
Class is a lot bigger factor in these things than sex…
Thus speaks a person of privilege, who doesn’t really understand what “privilege” means. Class warfare does exist; that still doesn’t mean you’re entitled to help yourself to every community-generated resource without actually being a member of that community.
I personally agree with this, but:
- this is hardly a community event. Being a woman (or a man) doesn’t make you a member of a community by default (being a member in my opinion requires deliberate participation) plus this is a job fair sponsored by some of the biggest companies in US.
- what if you don’t have a community? For example, a foreigner? Is it OK to alienate these people (an even weaker minority)?
In other words, I would agree if we were talking about the tech-bros with families worth 6 digits behind and huge networks they can leverage. However way more attributes are a determining factors than just gender.
First off, that job fair didn’t just spontaneously happen. It was thought up by, organized by, and run by women and enbys in tech, specifically to help women and enbys in tech. Those sponsors didn’t just miraculously happen; they were researched, approached, courted, their concerns addressed and their needs accommodated. And yes, that effort too was put in by women and enbys in tech, for other women and enbys in tech.
These are people with limited time and resources, who spent thirty years working on this, who carefully nurtured and shepherded the few resources they could gather, in order to create one single thing to help with their specific needs and challenges. That doesn’t mean there aren’t other groups with their own needs and challenges - foreigners who need accommodations for their visas and maybe cultural or language help, disabled people who need sign language interpreters or low-vision accommodations, people with issues like ADHD or major anxiety who need supportive environments and some guidance or handholding. There are lots of groups who can benefit from a job fair organized around their specific needs. The fact is, if you aren’t part of the group the fair is intended to help, you shouldn’t just show up, insert yourself into a place you were never invited, and take resources away from those who those resources were intended for.
And honestly, one of my frustrations is this: if you make a resource for … people living on Native American reservations, or blind or deaf people, or the mentally ill, or the homeless, or whomever, the resources generated get reserved for that community and no one blinks an eye. But as soon as a resource is designed to help women, there is an immediate and constant demand to expand that resource to other groups. The women and enbys who spent years and decades creating and nuturing this thing have the right to expend their limited time and energy creating resources that matter to them.
I’m highly sympathetic, but this thing didn’t go wrong in an instant. The organizers watched it go off the rails, and, AFAICT, didn’t intervene to fix it, as the problem revealed itself at scale.
Hard situations require hard thinking and decisive action.
I think this is the response that summarizes why someone would have an issue with this:
A class of men used their time and resources to build an old-boys-club to help each other. This is widely regarded as a bad thing. There are actual solutions that would address the underlying issue of special interests giving certain demographics an advantage, like anonymizing applications to circumvent discrimination and ensure the most qualified applicant gets the job regardless of demographic. Instead, the approach here is to make a new old-not-boys-club to give an advantage to different demographics.
That’s the issue here. The response to gender discrimination isn’t to take turns, it’s to eliminate unfair discrimination entirely.
That can’t be done without first leveling the playing field.
Ah yes, my favorite community, a gender.
I can’t tell if your misunderstanding is unintentional or trolling. In the context of this conversation, the community I was referring to was the group of women and enbys who worked together for years to try to overcome some of the systemic issues facing women and enbys in tech.
Also, since you seem determined to give only brief one-liners in response, I have no interest in continuing this conversation with you.
Transgender women are overrepresented in tech. The event should be for females in order to properly address the real discrepancy at play.
My point was that I don’t feel being in a community with every man in existence, and likewise I see no point to limit a community to a specific gender, especially in this day and age. “We don’t know you, it’s the first time I see you” is a valid reason for not considering someone a part of a community (yet) on a fair presumably meant for already established members. “You’re a man, go away” just isn’t.
Also, since you seem determined to give only brief one-liners in response, I have no interest in continuing this conversation with you.
Quite a bold statement after a single reply from me. Did we have some similar interaction beforehand elsewhere? I usually don’t pay much attention to nicknames, so apologies if by chance it was a repeated occurrence.
Of course you don’t feel like you’re in community with every man, you’re not a fucking marginalized gender! Some of us have to have solidarity to survive.
This is the whole point of the fucking event in the first place! Y’all have to insert yourselves into literally everything don’t you? Unbelievably childish.
Yeah that was my first thought. For men to be trying to get a job here means there is real serious desperation. Don’t hate the desperate people, hate the people that created this desperation
Your comment isn’t loading for me
Yours is trying to load something? It’s literally just an empty comment for me.
I saw a little while ago that kbin has been having some kind of issues loading images, so that might be what’s happening. I see it with no problem.
I checked and I can see the images when I look at it through your kbin instance. But it doesn’t show on any of the 3 lemmy instances I checked. Problem might be with kbin not federating images to lemmy.
That’s probably it. I know Ernest was talking about doing some upgrades to kbin around now, so issues with federating might be related to that. Or just kbin throwing a hissy fit.
I saw it and I still downvoted it because it contributes nothing to the conversation.
Can you see my comment now?
I’ve noticed lots of kbin comments and messages just don’t work on lemmy. Hopefully with the 0.19 release next month? that will get fixed.
I can’t see it either.
Apparently kbin has been goofy with images today.
It’s a picture of Elmo staring at you.
lemmy.world had some issues with pictures too.
Modern feminists are the biggest bootlickers out there.
They sold out in 1970s, no solidarity.
Most of the problems mentioned in the article seemed to be problems with the convention organization and not the attendees.
Layoffs are what caused the long queues to begin with. Event organization and operation makes it seem closer to an average American Black Friday event than a job conference.
Cullen White, AnitaB.org’s chief impact officer, said in a video posted to X, formerly Twitter, that some registrants had lied about their gender identity when signing up, and men were now taking up space and time with recruiters that should go to women. “All of those are limited resources to which you have no right,” White said. AnitaB.org did not respond to a request for comment.
Who picks their gender identity? The individuals or Cullen White? If anything this underscores the insanity of identity politics. If gender is whatever an individual feels like, then this event was just thousands of women and non-binary folks, and White needs to stop being such a bigot. However I think most of us understand that this is nonsense.
Gender is indeed based on what an individual feels like. That’s a perfectly reasonable way to categorize people - it’s also for example what religion is based on. It’s just hard to implement systems where you give different rights to different genders when there’s no way to check what gender someone is besides asking them. Probably the best solution is to just treat people the same regardless of gender so nobody has an incentive to lie.
Probably the best solution is to just treat people the same regardless of gender so nobody has an incentive to lie.
I couldn’t agree more.
This is an excellent take! Especially considering everyone has historically been treated fairly and there’s no reason to consider the compounding effects that would’ve likely occurred due to generations of white men getting preferential treatment
Clearly the solution is to allow discrimination!
As yes, the Ibram Kendi school of, “I NEED to be racist to correct historical racism. My racism is good though, promise.” All racists think their racism is justified. It’s not. You’re just racist :)
"an increase in participation of self-identifying males”
These aren’t guys who claim transgenderism or non-binary identity, these are men.
Gender is what an individual feels like: and it’s a consistent feeling regardless of their circumstances.
Nobody in good faith argued that your gender changes at the drop of a hat or whenever convenient. The transgender people I know have experienced significant suffering for decades due to a mismatch in feeling vs societal impositions.
White isn’t being a bigot: you are with your terf talking points. Fuck off.
These aren’t guys who claim transgenderism or non-binary identity, these are men.
They didn’t poll anyone already at the conference. There were no genital checks at the door. This is Cullen White making a prima facie observation of people who present as men and claiming they “lied about their gender identity when signing up.”
It sounds like both you and White feel entitled to dictate to others their gender.
But how did they know the people lying about their identity were actually lying? That’s what I was left wondering. Hopefully it’s not just based on what the organizers assumed because that’d be (while admittedly funny) quite contrary to what I assume they want to advocate for.
I read the article but didn’t see it clarified. Dunno if they clarified in the video
Just because gender is a complicated matter, it doesn’t mean people can’t be dishonest about it. Trying to invalidate transgender people for the lies of male registrants intruding on women’s spaces is doubly shameful. Really, transphobic people love to put up a flimsy mocking pretense that they are a different gender to discredit trans people.
Even entertaining this argument seems like a mistake, but trans and non-binary people are a small minority. It’s extremely unlikely that they would outnumber cisgender women.
It’s sad to see this sort of two-faced transphobic talk taking starting to take root in Kbin and Lemmy. It’s bad enough how much of this happens in other places.
I think it points out the fact that saying you are something does not mean you are that something. Anyone willing to lie (lots of people) can abuse this freedom to the detriment of the protected group. self id cannot be a thing if you want to exclude a certain group, because you have no basis to call them out, no matter what your hunch may be.
It’s not clear from your comment. Are you also accusing the trans women at this conference of lying about their gender?
I am accusing the cisgender men at the conference of lying about their gender and I am accusing people in this thread of playing coy about the fact that is trivial for someone who 100% sees themselves as a man to tick F rather than M on a form if that will get them an advantage. Especially if they think being transgender happens on a whim.
If they are transphobic, they even get to discredit actual trans people while they take advantage of an opportunity that wasn’t intended for them. It wouldn’t be the first time transphobic people pretend to be trans just to cause problems.
You did read my comment, I hope. Do you truly believe there are more transgender women and non-binary people than cisgender women in tech, to the point they would outnumber them?
How do you distinguish between the people who genuinely identify as nonbinary and those who are dishonestly doing it?
identify
See the “problem” with the entire ordeal is this right there, self-identification will always be abusable by people who are willing to lie. There is no solution to that problem I can think of that doesn’t piss someone off hard.
I am accusing the cisgender men at the conference of lying about their gender
Wait, this is confusing. Cisgender man would mean they identify as men. But if they were lying about their gender… are you accusing them of secretly being women?
I don’t see how you could misunderstand what I said. If that wasn’t clear enough, the part right after that clarifies your question plenty. At this point I think are trying to deliberately create confusion and start an argument.
Oh yeah, and that Right-wing pfp is pretty telling too…
What if they’re not transphobic but rather just taking advantage of the less competitive playing field cough cough
If gender is whatever an individual feels like, then this event was just thousands of women and non-binary folks,
The event could be “thousands of women and non-binary folks”. Did all these male-presenting people identify as women or non-binary just to be able to attend this event?
What do you think identity politics is, exactly? Just a way to make changes you don’t like to make you unhappy? It couldn’t possibly be about people trying to make social changes so they’re not constantly treated like shit. Oh no. The horror.
To the casual observer, identity politics seems to be a bunch of people competing to see who can put the most minority group names and acronyms in their social media profiles.
The event could be “thousands of women and non-binary folks”. Did all these male-presenting people identify as women or non-binary just to be able to attend this event?
According to their Chief Impact Officer, yes. Apparently they “lied about their gender identity when signing up.”
What do you think identity politics is, exactly?
Performative politics centred around identity. White is perfectly happy to pretend that men can be women - until it impacts him.
If we had proper public supports for people between jobs, students and immigrants looking to find a way to live and/or not get kicked out of the country, this wouldn’t be a problem.
The whole job hunt feels like a rat race, it’s practically common recruiter advice to apply for stuff that you don’t qualify for on paper, send out as many applications as possible and take every chance you can get. So I can see how people can apply these ideas to participate in spaces where they aren’t encouraged to apply.
This is compounded by the pressure put on people to even live without income for short periods of time.
I’d say I’m privileged, yet it took me a year of looking to land something in my field. I had money saved up and enough supports to keep costs at a minimum, I’m aware I’m lucky I was even able to be in this circumstance.
We need smart and capable women, trans and nb people in the workforce, and we need resources to overcome the barriers they face. I’m just saying that it’s not easy, even without such barriers and also with comforts that are not afforded to many.
You’re saying this like the rat race isn’t a feature for employers. They give you that advice because they want you to settle for whatever shit job they can get you to do for as little pay as possible. Employers don’t want happy, productive employees. They want desperate, starving employees just happy for the “opportunity” to make just enough to technically be able to survive.
it’s a feature for employers
You’re absolutely right about that.
I’m a trans woman and don’t bother applying because I know that my resume isn’t even looked at, and the interview hurdles are just so high that they’ll just say no anyway. What’s the point if companies refuse to hire me?
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yeah learned my lesson. I might try again though and just lie and say I’m latina when I’m not. maybe I’ll start getting some offers that way lol.
Well, companies can’t hire you if you don’t apply. Do your best and make them all tell you no, rather than expecting it and not trying.
Just know that it’s often not your fault your application didn’t make it through. It’s half an exhausting lottery. I’ve had pristinely written CV and letter with family and career counselors editing it not get anything, and applications where I found spelling mistakes after were interested in interviewing. Companies tend to have hiring seasons where if you apply at a consistent pace, you’ll get no answers some months and many answers at other times.
Even recruiting itself is a hellscape, you see corps getting recruiters, laying them off because “they don’t need em anymore”, then all of sudden they need more staff but way more than the recruiters they have can handle.
yeah sorry I don’t have that sort of mental health to be able to just continually throw myself at a wall for years on end when there ain’t even a person on the other side.
I have to sayings I give to my students.
In times of high unemployment: “Be overqualified for the job you are applying to. If you are not, you competition will be.”
In times of low unemployment: “If the recruiter picks a name out of a hat among those who applied, your chances are 1 divided by the number of applicants. Find the average number of applicants that apply to jobs you want - that is the average number of applications you have to send out before you find a job. (E.g.: Online WFH jobs with good pay sometimes get thousands of applications).”
I only got my first job in tech for not lying. That was the only way I stood out. The guy hiring me was relieved when I came by and said my stuff was mediocre so I could not be lying like the sea of shitheads (his words) plaigerizing even his own work. Yes,even his own work started showing up in other people’s resumes…
So sometimes being truthful is worthwhile to be the only way to stand out. It’s a way to stay believable especially if they are inundated with liars
I answered the ‘why do you want this job’ question with ‘I’m unemployed and need money’, rather than lying about some lifelong ambition to work for a small software company in bumfuck nowhere. Got me the job.
Of course it depends on the interviewer, but TBH I’d rather work for one that values honesty anyway.
and it should be warned that lying on a resume does come with a risk as a person’s career takes effect. Lying on a throw away job is one thing. But as a person progresses in a career and depending on how small and incestuous an industry is, word of a liar travels fast. A person can get blacklisted fast.
From the title I thought this was an article about men driving vehicles into people at the job fair. I was slightly aghast that the discussion was only about whether or not it’s ok to have a job fair for women in tech.
The fact that it’s illegal for them to ban men because it’s considered gender discrimination kind of highlights the problem here.
I think most of the discussion is that a job fair created to rectify discrimination, is complaining in an article that they can’t discriminate
🙄
its mostly complaints that people are being disrespected, if you read the article: pushing, shoving, etc.
“But what about the paradox of tolerance!”
Nawwwe bro, not interested.
No one wants to work anymore!
I can’t wait for this to be posted on Hacker News, get 5 of the worst techbro libertarian nonsense comments, get 3 angry SJW replies to those techbros, then dang shouts at the SJWs about tone, rate limits them, then flags the article off the site.
/it me, I’m the SJW.
Accurate lmao
ITT: men who can’t ever admit they might be the problem. So many excuses here it’s pathetic.
edit: I love the “not all men” and “not me”. As always, it’s not all men. But it’s enough. And the men here getting so defensive really prove the point. And before anyone gets into it, it’s not really the sex or gender. It’s the societal expectations and allowances that encourage men to engage in abusive shit like we see in the article here. I.e. the patriarchy and those who support it.
Can you expound on that statement?
It sounds as if the organizers were too quick to take the $650 from attendees and those willing to pay were very eager to pony up the cash in the hope of networking.
The attendees should be able to tell that they would be intruding even if the organization didn’t bother to check that. Both were in the wrong.
How would they separate those intruding and those who the event was made for? Seems like a hard issue to solve
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It’s almost like women are disfavored in the tech industry and this is an attempt to make up for that.
Can you stop staring at your own navel for even a second, Bob?
Great Parks and Rec episode
It’s abusive to checks notes apply for a job?
It’s abusive to invade women’s spaces as a man looking to take advantage. Stay out.
Oh look, you’re all up in this thread a day late posting his horrid takes.
The organization says it welcomes men’s allyship and participation though
Well, it seems to be considered abusive to have a men’s space at all, and if there is one, women are downright encouraged to invade it.
The horrid tale is hating men for trying to get a job.
