• PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmygrad.ml
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    1 year ago

    Btw even Finnish historians agree that the number is pure bullshit, made up for propaganda purposes. Soviet archives analysis confirms it, if it was real he would have to singlehandedly caused half of the losses of Soviet units located there.

    • Shrike502@lemmygrad.ml
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      1 year ago

      Don’t tell finnaboos that, you’ll cause a meltdown not seen since the formation of the Earth

      • PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmygrad.ml
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        1 year ago

        I already did few times and the effect was as you describe. Funnily enough, it’s not even any tankie lore, even their beloved wiki mentions that.

        • Kusimulkku@lemm.ee
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          1 year ago

          Was it some online squabble? I can’t imagine anyone reacting much to it irl since most agree the stuff is exaggerated. It’s a sore point or anything.

            • Kusimulkku@lemm.ee
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              1 year ago

              Like people enthusiastic about Finland or Finns? Because I wouldn’t be surprised by the reaction from first group, whereas I’d be really surprised by the latter. I have some of the flag waving, Finnish lion wearing nationalistic friends and when we talked about it some time ago everyone agreed that the number is exaggerated and the discussion was more about by how much. I think some thought it was still really high and some were just unsure. Of course this is just my experience. Abroad those people might be more boastful hah

              • PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmygrad.ml
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                1 year ago

                There’s tons of wehraboos in Poland and that usually include FInland too “Hayha killed 500 Russians singlehandedly” compiled with “Finland totally shows those commie cockroaches their place” etc. they love when someone kill Soviets and Russians so they always take the asspulled numbers like gospel.

                • Kusimulkku@lemm.ee
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                  1 year ago

                  Ah. Partly that might be because Winter War and Finland’s WW2 history is in that spot where people know a few (often exaggerated) tidbits that make them feel knowledgeable about it but not enough to really know stuff. In that context believing the 700 noscope 360’s seems more reasonable. Hearing someone outside of Finland talk about Finland’s history during WW2 is one of those cases where you’re sure to hear a mistake or two. Hell, you can see it here in the comments. But a lot of it is imo pretty understandable.

      • Kusimulkku@lemm.ee
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        1 year ago

        I think me and most Finns know it’s exaggerated. That’s usually brought up when talking about him. Most think he was impressive sniper but not that impressive.

        • Kusimulkku@lemm.ee
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          1 year ago

          Nobody. During Winter War Finland was fighting alone against Soviet Union.

          I think that’s one of the things that made the war so notable, tiny Finland fighting against huge Soviet Union, 1 v 1.

          It wasn’t the symbol of Finnish military till 2002. It was in some limited use. I think it still is btw. The reason was that it’s old Finnish symbol since I think iron ages or before and for example the air force logo came from a Swedish count in 1918. Pretty interesting history.

          • axont [she/her, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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            1 year ago

            Holy hell this is wrong. Finland in the winter war was a fascist state allied with Germany and it had been since the communists lost the civil war in 1918. Communists had been rounded up and put in camps by the tens of thousands. Finland was effectively a German puppet state by the time the Soviets invaded in 1939.

            • Kusimulkku@lemm.ee
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              1 year ago

              Finland in the winter war was a fascist state allied with Germany

              No, you are thinking of Continuation War. During Winter War Finland wasn’t allied with Germany, rather contrary to that Germany was hampering some efforts to ship armaments to Finland because of Molotov-Ribbentrop. Not only that, Finland wasn’t at all fascist. It was a functioning multi-party democracy.

              Finland was effectively a German puppet state by the time the Soviets invaded in 1939.

              That has no basis in reality. I suggest you read this article that gives some basics about the background for Winter War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Background_of_the_Winter_War

              See for example: "Finnish–German relations cooled after the National Socialist Party rose to power in Germany in 1933. Finns admired Imperial Germany, but not the radical and antidemocratic Nazi regime. Finnish conservatives did not accept the Nazis’ state violence and antireligious policies. Still, there was sympathy for German aims to revise the Treaty of Versailles, but the official Finnish policy was reserved, especially after the German invasion of Czechoslovakia. Finland even recalled its ambassador for a short period.

              Finnish Nazis and ultranationalist parties such as the Patriotic People’s Movement achieved only minor support in several elections, especially in the aftermath of the failed Mäntsälä rebellion in 1932."

          • ComradeSalad@lemmygrad.ml
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            1 year ago

            Why did Finland Siege Leningrad from the north and seize the northern isthmus?

            Why did Finland attempt to cut off Murmansk on the German’s orders?

            • Kusimulkku@lemm.ee
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              1 year ago

              That’s not Winter War, that’s Continuation War. Simo Häyhä didn’t fight in Continuation War. As for war aims during Continuation War, the answer is obvious, to defeat USSR. It’s like asking why Germany bombed the UK.

              • ComradeSalad@lemmygrad.ml
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                1 year ago

                He wanted to fight in the Continuation War, he was barred entry to the army.

                Also the Continuation War began in 1944. Those things I mentioned happened in 1941, during Operation Barbarossa. Finland was an ally of Nazi Germany.

                • Kusimulkku@lemm.ee
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                  1 year ago

                  He wanted to fight in the Continuation War, he was barred entry to the army.

                  Yes

                  Also the Continuation War began in 1944.

                  No, Continuation War happened 1941-44. You’re thinking of Lapland War now. That’s 1944-45.

        • Kusimulkku@lemm.ee
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          1 year ago

          In this case the communist attacked you and started shooting you first. I’d imagine most would defend themselves when attacked

          It’s an interesting idea though that anyone who communists attack are Nazis. Maybe the funniest conclusion from that is that Vietnamese were Nazis since China attacked Vietnam in 1979.

          • TheGamingLuddite [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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            1 year ago

            The Finnish state that fought the Soviet Union, the one which was allied with Nazi Germany, was only established after the wholesale massacre of communists and workers. Anticommunism is the modus operandi of fascism in all its forms. The axis powers in WWII were formalized in the “Anti-Comintern Pact” to which Finland was a signatory.

            • Kusimulkku@lemm.ee
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              1 year ago

              Using something happened in 1918 and especially 1941 to justify calling Finland Nazi during Winter War that happened in 1939-40 seems fairly creative.

              Interesting thing about the Civil War and Winter War though. After the Civil War Finland was heavily divided nation for a long time. And while the wounds had started to heal some, it was the opposition to the Soviet attack that actually brought the left and right together. I’m not sure how true it is, but I’ve heard Stalin expected the Finnish workers to celebrate him coming over and “freeing them” and was quite surprised that they were having none of that.

            • Kusimulkku@lemm.ee
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              1 year ago

              It would feel a bit strange to say Finland was Nazi during Winter War because during Continuation War Finland was Axis aligned when the USSR attack in Winter War is the biggest reason Finland sought closer ties with Germany.

              • diegeticscream[all]🔻@lemmygrad.ml
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                1 year ago

                So:

                • The Soviet Union feared that the noted anti-communists in control of Finland would allow it to be used as an operating base for the Nazis.

                • The USSR attempted diplomatic resolution to those fears with Finland.

                • They were denied.

                • The USSR invades Finland to secure safety from that fear.

                • They win.

                • The noted anti-communists in control of Finland then allow it to be used by the Nazis as a base for the Nazis, and support them in attacking the USSR.

                You’re saying the Continuation War happened solely because of the Winter War, and that the noted anti-communists were in no-way ideologically aligned with the Nazis before the USSR’s attack?

                • Kusimulkku@lemm.ee
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                  1 year ago

                  The USSR wanted Finland to give it areas including the main Finnish defensive line. Knowing what happened with Czechoslovakia and “just a few areas” and knowing what happened to Baltics, it’s easy to see what road that would’ve taken Finland down on.

                  You’re saying the Continuation War happened solely because of the Winter War

                  No, I’m saying Finland sought help from the Nazis because during Winter War Finland was left completely alone, the preferred alliance direction of Nordics or UK/France/US panning out to not have done much at all. And both sides, USSR and Finland knew it was just a temporarily truce and another war was coming. Obviously Finland didn’t want to be alone, again.

                  the noted anti-communists were in no-way ideologically aligned with the Nazis before the USSR’s attack

                  Mostly the Finnish leadership were noted anglophiles.

  • Alaskaball [comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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    1 year ago

    https://twitter.com/After__History/status/1698068265699086806

    The “legend” of Simo Häyhä is a product of Finnish nationalist myth-making. There is no evidence to suggest that he killed that many people—the absurdly high “542 kill count” is war propaganda that was never confirmed by even Hayha himself, as shown by the historian F. Marjomaa

    These superhero-like sniper legends endure today as highly sensational pop history in service of nationalism. In reality, it was not at all possible (or desirable) for snipers to accurately keep track of kills, and stories of bravado were grossly exaggerated over time

    It’s also worth noting that the “RuSSians” Häyhä did kill would have included a significant number of Ukrainians and Central Asians, so it’s strange to see someone with a Ukraine flag emoji in their name gloating over Ukrainians being killed.

    There is this tendency to project the current russia and Ukraine conflict back into history, which really makes zero sense in the Soviet context given that Ukrainians were Soviets who by and large earnestly believed in and fought for the Soviet project.

    Anyways, this is not to say Häyhä was not a talented soldier (he was), but that these narratives are a highly distorted, and unhelpful way of understanding history prone to exaggeration, essentially treating war like a Call of Duty game scoreboard.

    One should also hesitate to treat Häyhä as a hero. While he did not serve in the continuation war when Finland was allied with the Nazis, this was not out of any kind of protest. He wished to participate but was unable to do so due to the injuries from fighting the Soviets.

    https://www.mtvuutiset.fi/artikkeli/talvisodan-tarkka-ampujasta-tuli-sankari-liioiteltiinko-valkoista-kuolemaa/3124576

    SS from this article. Every researcher who has seriously studied Hayha’s “count” using archival evidence has concluded it’s been grossly exaggerated. Also, see the work of Hannu Narsakka or Oleg Kiselev. Nothing really in English though, unfortunately

  • ButtigiegMineralMap@lemmygrad.ml
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    1 year ago

    Wait was he Pro-Axis? I only ever hear the kill count and see the picture of the face, I didn’t see the uniform before, what uniform is that?

    • Shrike502@lemmygrad.ml
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      1 year ago

      The guy fought in the Finnish-Soviet war. Against the Soviets and for the Axis-aligned Finland. Do you think he might be a tiny bit pro-Axis?

          • Kusimulkku@lemm.ee
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            I think you’re confusing Winter War (Finland vs Soviet Union) and Continuation War where Finland was allied with Nazi Germany attacking Soviet Union. That came after. During Winter War Finland wasn’t allied or even aligned with Nazi Germany or anything like that. Simo Häyhä fought just in Winter War.

      • Kusimulkku@lemm.ee
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        1 year ago

        Finland wasn’t Axis aligned during Winter War. In fact Nazi Germany hampered Italian attempts to help Finland because it would’ve gone against the Nazi-Soviet Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact that gave Finland to Soviet Union.

        Simo Häyhä only served during the Winter War.

    • Kusimulkku@lemm.ee
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      1 year ago

      Finnish military uniform. It’s not some Nazi uniform if that’s what you’re wondering. He was a Finnish soldier during Winter War where Soviet Union attacked Finland. People saying he was fighting for “Axis alignes Finland” are confusing Winter War for Continuation War where Finland fought alongside Nazi Germany against Soviet Union.

      As for his personal opinions on Axis countries, I don’t really know. I don’t think he was very outspoken about those, if he had much of an opinion.

    • ComradeSalad@lemmygrad.ml
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      No, this was the Finnish sniper during the Winter War. He wanted to serve in the Continuation War but he was dismissed and barred entry because of the extent of the injuries he suffered, and because his death would have been a propaganda disaster.